Who Still Likes Jack's Joker Or Thinks He's Better Than Heath's Joker?

[david icke]

In The Joker's Five-Way Revenge:

One of his former gang members is found dead in a crime-scene due to laughing gas and there's a Joker playing card left at the scene.

He mixes Joker Venom in one of his former gang members drinking water.

He gives a former gang member the exploding cigar but at first he let's him think it's an harmless gag then that naive member blows up into flames.

He kills one more gang member however the cause of death is never shown but leaves it open to interpretation.

He threatens to kill the last remaining gang member by feeding him to a shark in the aquarium tank but Batman manages to prevent this death.

I was talking about the props, as some people on the thread have stressed their utmost importance. Still only one prop there, the cigar.

Nolan changed the smiley gas to him carving the smile on Brian Douglas' face, we all know he goes for a more realistic and less sci-fi BM movie. edit: and he still pins the playing card to him.

Another thing about '5 way' and it's philosophical relation to Ledger's Joker:

In '5 way', for the first time I think, we get to read the Joker's philosphy on his strugggle with the Batman.
He knocks BM out from behind and has his foot on his throat, but decides not to kill him as it would be an unworthy end to their legendary battle of wits. He talks(thinks) about how BM is the only one who has ever gave him a match in battle.
The same character defining concept which is explored in the interrogation scene in TDK, and is not touched upon at all in Batman89.

 

[returntovoid]

Another thing about '5 way' and it's philosophical relation to Ledger's Joker:

In '5 way', for the first time I think, we get to read the Joker's philosphy on his strugggle with the Batman.
He knocks BM out from behind and has his foot on his throat, but decides not to kill him as it would be an unworthy end to their legendary battle of wits. He talks(thinks) about how BM is the only one who has ever gave him a match in battle.
The same character defining concept which is explored in the interrogation scene in TDK, and is not touched upon at all in Batman89.

I agree that TDK got the philosophical aspect of The Joker really well.

But I still prefer Jack's Joker and stand by that opinion.

 

[david icke]

I agree that TDK got the philosophical aspect of The Joker really well.

But I still prefer Jack's Joker and stand by that opinion.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to change your opinion. I was just exploring and explaining the reasons why Ledger fans feel he is just as close, or closer, to the Joker of the modern books.

 

[returntovoid]

I just found a laugh comparison video of Heath and Jack's Joker on YouTube.

[YT]7uDEcFCgyLM[/YT]

 

[Infinity9999x]

We got that in the Brian Douglas video scene. The joker is playing around with his mask going 'whooo hoo, wheee' etc, and talking in a somewhat playful voice, and then flips to the 'LOOK AT ME!' voice, which was quite terrifying. I thought that voice was even more effective as you couldn't see his face/expression during it, sometimes it's better to leave something to the imagination, as it will be scarier than any face an actor could pull.

You're right, that scene did have that kind of classic Hammil 180, but I would like to see (in a new film interpretation) a Joker that does that as often as Hammil's, and maybe one who takes a few more influences from Hammil's Joker.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I just found a laugh comparison video of Heath and Jack's Joker on YouTube.

[YT]7uDEcFCgyLM[/YT]

Did that trailer leave out Heath's laugh that was in the trailers? That's my favorite one of his laughs

I think Jack's best Mr. J laugh was the first one. That scene was just so creepy, but perfect for the Joker. The others weren't bad, but I liked Heath's slightly higher-pitched ones a bit more.

But if we're really going to judge laughs, nobody beats Hammil.

 

[Bruce Malone]

I liked nicholson in batman and that's probably cuz i like nicholson in general but can someone tell me how his performance was anything more than just being jack in the joker get up?

With Heath he totally transformed himself into something no ones probably seen him let alone any actor portray before. For jack you could probably look at 5 or 10 other movies where's he played a similar whacked out ecentric character. I'm even positive i've heard jacks same joker laugh in other of his films.

-edit- Perfect example

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbLB21If2YA&feature=related

 

[Symbiotic]

They're both the perfect Jokers for their universes.

 

[El Payaso]

I liked nicholson in batman and that's probably cuz i like nicholson in general but can someone tell me how his performance was anything more than just being jack in the joker get up?

With Heath he totally transformed himself into something no ones probably seen him let alone any actor portray before. For jack you could probably look at 5 or 10 other movies where's he played a similar whacked out ecentric character. I'm even positive i've heard jacks same joker laugh in other of his films.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbLB21If2YA&feature=related

But how having the perfect personality and laughter for the Joker is a bad thing? Yes, Jack was perfect for the character, he didn't have to change too much as just let the character flow.

I know how cool an actor doing a role that's very different from himself is, butthat doesn't make a standard. If for that, any other actor who was even "less Joker-like" than Ledger would have been better than heath.

Ledger was fantastic but not because how different the Joker is from his other roles but because the personality he built for the character was solid.

 

[Bruce Malone]

No i'm not saying its a bad thing. Jack was a great choice to play the joker maybe even an obvious choice but as you can see he didn't do anything unique to play the joker he really only had to play himself.

That's why I don't get how people can say his joker was more authentic. Unless the creators of the joker based the joker on jack nicholson, he really didn't bring anything new to the role he played. Its like if you cast deniro as a hard nosed cop, you'll get a great performance im sure but nothing groundbreaking or unique. Actors really take the next step when they do roles outside their comfort zone.

I agree on heath there's a reason he was nominated for an osacar and it wasn't just because the died.

sidenote you can argue mark hamil made a big leap of character himself going from luke skywalker to the joker.

 

[Travesty]

That's why I don't get how people can say his joker was more authentic. Unless the creators of the joker based the joker on jack nicholson, he really didn't bring anything new to the role he played.

Because when I base the performances, I do it according to the comics, not "who slipped into character better". The only thing that I can see that Heath did better, was put on a more original voice, other then that, they both acted accordingly, only for me, B89s version is more true to the comicbook counterpart, so I side with that. Just like you thought Jacks acting was dull, I thought TDK-version was a dull interpretation. And since I'm a fan of the character, I side with what reminds me more of the comics. I agree, Heath did a better job at acting, and Jacks performance is far from perfect, but I like it much more then TDKs version.

sidenote you can argue mark hamil made a big leap of character himself going from luke skywalker to the joker.

Hamil's version is still my favorite, but this thread was asking about Jack vs Heath.

 

[MrQuinn]

Hamil's version is still my favorite, but this thread was asking about Jack vs Heath.

Hamill is an option, though!

 

[Bruce Malone]

Because when I base the performances, I do it according to the comics, not "who slipped into character better". The only thing that I can see that Heath did better, was put on a more original voice, other then that, they both acted accordingly, only for me, B89s version is more true to the comicbook counterpart, so I side with that. Just like you thought Jacks acting was dull, I thought TDK-version was a dull interpretation. And since I'm a fan of the character, I side with what reminds me more of the comics. I agree, Heath did a better job at acting, and Jacks performance is far from perfect, but I like it much more then TDKs version.

Hamil's version is still my favorite, but this thread was asking about Jack vs Heath.

Well everyone has their personal tastes and that you can't argue over and i didn't say his acting was dull just not unique for himself

i just mentioned hamill cuz i saw him in the poll

 

[Travesty]

Hamill is an option, though!

I didn't even know this thread was a poll? Was that editied in, or did I just miss that from the beginning?

 

[returntovoid]

I didn't even know this thread was a poll? Was that editied in, or did I just miss that from the beginning?

I edited the poll in to the thread.

 

[Ipodman]

TDK's joker seems more dangerous...

 

[El Payaso]

But they're both as dangerous as the other.

 

[returntovoid]

Leaving his victims with a carved on smile is making a joke about it.

I found it to be brutal/realistic in TDK but not funny, IMHO.

Besides, carving smiles around someones mouth (known as Glasgow smile) was an actual practice done by real gangsters and murders.

This practice originated in Glasgow, Scotland and later, also in England.

dressing up as a nurse before bombing a hospital

Him dressing like nurse was funny but I found the bombing serious.

putting a bomb in a thug's stomach

I think the thug most probably volunteered to have that bomb inserted into his stomach like a suicide bomber straps a bomb around themselves.

to broadcasting his terror on TV

Terrorist groups record videos with speech to send a message.

In that sort of way, The Joker was sending a message by giving a speech except he was also torturing/eventually killing the fake Batman.

to his Laughter is the best medicine circus truck

It was cool to see that written but tbh, it didn't make much of an impact, on me.

the pencil trick

That was one Joker moment in TDK that I thought was great, although we couldn't clearly see the pencil impaling due to the PG-13 rating.

When he held the pencil on the table, he made magician-type hand gestures that I think showed his taste for theatricality.

 

[El Payaso]

No i'm not saying its a bad thing. Jack was a great choice to play the joker maybe even an obvious choice but as you can see he didn't do anything unique to play the joker he really only had to play himself.

That's why I mean: yes, Jack based his Joker in his own personality - although I doubt Jack laughs like that and kills people while being himself - but then you present that as something without merit.

That's why I don't get how people can say his joker was more authentic.

You say he was being himself. How authentic can that be.

Unless the creators of the joker based the joker on jack nicholson, he really didn't bring anything new to the role he played. Its like if you cast deniro as a hard nosed cop, you'll get a great performance im sure but nothing groundbreaking or unique. Actors really take the next step when they do roles outside their comfort zone.

Joker was never portrayed as such a sadistic psycho. Before Jack, live action Joker was seen merely as a clown who robbed banks.

And Joker's creators didn't base it on Jack, but Jack was so incredibly close to the character he was hired for it.

And well, Jack has plenty of next steps in his career; Joker was the moment of having good fun while doing an excellent work and there's noithing wrong or less worthy with it. He was hired presicely because he was close to the character, not because he needed a "next step" or walking out of his comfort zone.

I agree on heath there's a reason he was nominated for an osacar and it wasn't just because the died.

Well, don't make start on how Oscars are all about glamour and little about talent.

That said, I think Ledger's performance is truly fantastic in spite of having an Oscar involved.

sidenote you can argue mark hamil made a big leap of character himself going from luke skywalker to the joker.

Well it was nice having him doing something else. But I never cared for his Joker too much; it was good for the animation that's all. But when you have to put your face and body for the character, then it starts becoming really interesting for me.

 

[The Joker]

I found it to be brutal/realistic in TDK but not funny, IMHO.

I didn't find it funny either. But I did find it theatrical, insane, and in tune with the Joker giving people a smile like his. And leaving the Joker cards with the bodies.

Also an infamous Joker trait.

Him dressing like nurse was funny but I found the bombing serious.

Of course the bombing is serious. All the evil things he does is serious. Did you find all the evil things Nicholson's Joker did not serious? Because if so, then the character didn't have much impact as a villain on you.

His theatrical nature should be funny, but the nature of the crimes is always serious.

I think the thug most probably volunteered to have that bomb inserted into his stomach like a suicide bomber straps a bomb around themselves.

I doubt that. The thug seemed to be a few sandwiches short of a picnic.

"The boss said he'd make the voices go away. He said he'd go inside and replace 'em with bright lights....like CHRISTMAS!!!!"

It's implied Joker's henchmen are not quite sane. Thomas Schiff, for example, is a paranoid schizo, and a former patient from Arkham. The kind of minds Joker attracts. Which is very cool. He recruited loonies as his henchmen in The Man Who Laughs story.

Terrorist groups record videos with speech to send a message.

In that sort of way, The Joker was sending a message by giving a speech except he was also torturing/eventually killing the fake Batman.

And the Joker sends his threats and messages in the exact same way. He's been doing it since his very first appearance.

Nicholson's Joker did the same thing, too, with his smilex commercial, announcing he'll be at the 200th anniversary festival at midnight etc.

Joker is a public TV man. He likes the limelight.

It was cool to see that written but tbh, it didn't make much of an impact, on me.

That's a shame.

Always rose a chuckle out of the audiences I saw it with.

That was one Joker moment in TDK that I thought was great, although we couldn't clearly see the pencil impaling due to the PG-13 rating.

You're never going to see a pencil being shoved into someone's eyeball clearly in a Batman movie. That would make it R-rated.

Kids are supposed to be able to see these movies, too.

When he held the pencil on the table, he made magician-type hand gestures that I think showed his taste for theatricality.

Yeah, I liked that.

 

[MysterioMenace]

I was talking about the props, as some people on the thread have stressed their utmost importance. Still only one prop there, the cigar.

Nolan changed the smiley gas to him carving the smile on Brian Douglas' face, we all know he goes for a more realistic and less sci-fi BM movie. edit: and he still pins the playing card to him.

Another thing about '5 way' and it's philosophical relation to Ledger's Joker:

In '5 way', for the first time I think, we get to read the Joker's philosphy on his strugggle with the Batman.
He knocks BM out from behind and has his foot on his throat, but decides not to kill him as it would be an unworthy end to their legendary battle of wits. He talks(thinks) about how BM is the only one who has ever gave him a match in battle.
The same character defining concept which is explored in the interrogation scene in TDK, and is not touched upon at all in Batman89.

You talk as if this has been a steady staple. The fact of the matter is that the Joker and his relationships with Batman have always been on a very unstable foundation. The only regular occurrence is that it’s always teetering back and forth. He’s notoriously fickle and that’s not excluded in the Dark Knight. One day he wants to kill Batman and rule Gotham, the next he doesn’t want more than to teach him some warped lesson in amorality and considers himself the yang to the caped crusaders yin. Neither (that being Joker wanting to kill Batman or leave him alive) is necessarily more accurate to their relationship then the other. This is made blatantly apparently by the Jokers actions in even Nolan’s film, when he goes from wanting to “Kill the Batman” to “I don’t want to kill you, what would I be without you?” during the interrogation scene. He hypocritically proclaims to not be some so-called schemer, yet he very blatantly has a plan set in motion with his publically announced ultimatum murders and other terroristic ploys. And this is a testament to his unpredictability, the very reason why he keeps Batman on his toes to begin with. You never know what he wants to do at any given time. He’s completely random, hence the archetypical symbolism of the Joker in the deck. He’s the embodiment of the wild card.

 

[MysterioMenace]

Of course the bombing is serious. All the evil things he does is serious. Did you find all the evil things Nicholson's Joker did not serious? Because if so, then the character didn't have much impact as a villain on you.

His theatrical nature should be funny, but the nature of the crimes is always serious.

I think your post was very well-written and I agree with the vast majority, but I think you’re missing one thing though; it’s not about the (realistically) horrifying things the Joker is doing. Yes they indeed are quite serious. It’s more so about the fact that to the Joker, serious things like homicide aren’t serious. Anyone can kill...but not everyone has the shtick or sadistic sense of humor the Joker has, that which truly has made him stand out amongst the dime-a-dozen killer villains in comic book history. I think that’s the more profound, interesting, and intellectual villain, not to mention frightening. While I got that from Heath, it wasn’t nearly as prevalent as with Jack or Hamill, who made literal comedy out of murder far more often. I don’t find that stripping of the scare factor but rather the very reason for it. To the Clown Prince of Crime, there's no ethics. No matter how serious, it's a joke.

And for what it's worth, I did find the bombing funny...

 

[The Joker]

You talk as if this has been a steady staple. The fact of the matter is that the Joker and his relationships with Batman have always been on a very unstable foundation. The only regular occurrence is that it’s always teetering back and forth. He’s notoriously fickle and that’s not excluded in the Dark Knight. One day he wants to kill Batman and rule Gotham, the next he doesn’t want more than to teach him some warped lesson in amorality and considers himself the yang to the caped crusaders yin. Neither (that being Joker wanting to kill Batman or leave him alive) is necessarily more accurate to their relationship then the other. This is made blatantly apparently by the Jokers actions in even Nolan’s film, when he goes from wanting to “Kill the Batman” to “I don’t want to kill you, what would I be without you?” during the interrogation scene. He hypocritically proclaims to not be some so-called schemer, yet he very blatantly has a plan set in motion with his publically announced ultimatum murders and other terroristic ploys. And this is a testament to his unpredictability, the very reason why he keeps Batman on his toes to begin with. You never knew what he wants to do at any given time. He’s completely random, hence the archetypical symbolism of the Joker in the deck. He’s the embodiment of the wild card.

Wow, what a great post.

Well said

I think your post was very well-written and I agree with the vast majority, but I think you’re missing one thing though; it’s not about the (realistically) horrifying things the Joker is doing. Yes they indeed are quite serious. It’s more so about the fact that to the Joker, serious things like homicide aren’t serious. Anyone can kill...but not everyone has the shtick or sadistic sense of humor the Joker has, which truly has made him stand out amongst the dime-a-dozen killer villains in comic book history. I think that’s the more profound, interesting, and intellectual villain, not to mention frightening. While I got that from Heath, it wasn’t nearly as prevalent as with Jack or Hamill, who made literal jokes out of murder far more often. I don’t find that stripping of the scare factor, but rather the very reason for it. To the Clown Prince of Crime, there's no ethics. No matter how serious, it's a joke.

I get what you're saying, and I agree he was not as "wild" as Jack, but I think he was absolutely perfect in the fact that he did not find murder serious or a big deal. Just to cite a few examples:

- The casual nature in which he set up all his henchmen to die in the bank heist, and then capped it off with the gas grenade on the string in the bank manager's mouth. As we know, Joker offing his own men is a classic Joker trait.
- The pencil trick "Taaaaaa daaaaaaa!!! It's.....it's gone"
- The TV message threat about Batman. "Ooooh every day Batman doesn't turn himself in, people will die. Starting tonight. I'm a man of my wuuuuuurd! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!" *Que the sound of Brian Douglas screaming in pain*
- His whole swagger and attitude when he stormed the penthouse party. "You know I'll settle for his loved ones" and then eats an hor dourve lol.
- Tossing Rachel out the window.
Batman: "Let her go"
Joker: "Very poor choice of words. HAHAHAHA"

Like I said, he wasn't as wild as Jack about it, but he was just as theatrical, and murder clearly meant nothing to him.

 

[MysterioMenace]

Wow, what a great post.

Well said



I get what you're saying, and I agree he was not as "wild" as Jack, but I think he was absolutely perfect in the fact that he did not find murder serious or a big deal. Just to cite a few examples:

- The casual nature in which he set up all his henchment to die in the bank heist, and then capped it off with the gas grenade on the string in the bank manager's mouth
- The pencil trick "Taaaaaa daaaaaaa!!! It's.....it's gone"
- The TV message threat about Batman. "Ooooh every day Batman doesn't turn himself in, people will die. Starting tonight. I'm a man of my wuuuuuurd! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!" *Que the sound of Brian Douglas screaming in pain*
- His whole swagger and attitude when he stormed the penthouse party. "You know I'll settle for his loved ones" and then eats an hor dourve lol.
- Tossing Rachel out the window.
Batman: "Let her go"
Joker: "Very poor choice of words. HAHAHAHA"

Like I said, he wasn't as wild as Jack about it, but he was just as theatrical, and murder clearly meant nothing to him.

Very good points! Maybe I should watch Dark Knight again, I seem to be forgetting a lot of moments outside of the nurse outfit and pencil trick. I really do love the Ledger Joker too, I just really missed some of the more common props, especially the bang gun. I do think he could have pulled it off. For sure! It's really a shame he passed, for all we know...he'd have had one in the sequel he was supposedly set to appear in. I'd have totally had a nerdgasm. Hah!

OH! I love your avatar BTW! By far my favorite Joker one I've seen around here. =]

 

[returntovoid]

Did you find all the evil things Nicholson's Joker did not serious?

Those were also serious but there was something about them that I found funny, to be honest.

All matter of opinion and preference, I suppose. To each to his own.

My opinion on which Joker that I thought was better has nothing to do with comic book accuracy. Jack's Joker and Heath's Joker are both as valid in essence of the character but people's preference on who is better differs.

I don't like TKJ interpretation of Joker but that doesn't mean everyone shouldn't like it because all interpretations of the Batman mythos are valid. Even, campy Batman interpretation is valid because it's like the 60's comic books and TV show.