Who Still Likes Jack's Joker Or Thinks He's Better Than Heath's Joker?

[Travesty]

Also, he would have known Lau would be in protective custody, ie a solitary cell, so far away from the blast.
And it would have been fairly easy for him, in conjunction with Maroni, to have one of the crooked cops on the payrole make sure that phone-belly-man was put in jail at the same time as the Joker, to pick him up at a certain place. Also, the joker would know he would be a distance from the blast as he would be making his one phone call. Of course, with all plans , there are variables that must be improvised around etc, but the basic strategy is there.

That is what I'm talking about. He would have to know every detail, and execute it to the last millisecond, in order for that to work. And The Joker was at the same distance as the other cops who had guns to him, while he was holding that guy at knife(glass)point, yet, they either died or got knocked out. That's crazy to even try to think that's possible. That's like saying he knew he would be in a room, where he could overpower somebody, in order to take them out, to get the phone, to blow himself out.

 

[The Joker]

Also, he would have known Lau would be in protective custody, ie a solitary cell, so far away from the blast.
And it would have been fairly easy for him, in conjunction with Maroni, to have one of the crooked cops on the payrole make sure that phone-belly-man was put in jail at the same time as the Joker, to pick him up at a certain place. Also, the joker would know he would be a distance from the blast as he would be making his one phone call. Of course, with all plans , there are variables that must be improvised around etc, but the basic strategy is there.

Joker was alive as well as Lao as well as the cop as well as other cops as well as all of his thugs (sans the fat bomb guy). Some cops died but the majority probably just got knocked out/stunned from the blast.

Exactly.

And that's originally what I was saying. I just said, I think a thug put it in his chest, instead of The Joker himself. But then again, the movie alludes to the fact that The Joker did all this on purpose(to get Lau out), so it still doesn't add up, and seems highly unlikely either way.

What doesn't add up? The fact that Joker had an escape plan in case of capture? Why doesn't that add up?

Hehe, wow. I can criticize the highly impossible plan all I want.

You can criticize, but if you want to make a solid arguement, then have all the facts straight.

Sorry I missed the surviving cop, I haven't watched the movie in about 4 months or so, and maybe missed that altogether. I just thought everybody died, seeing as how Joker walks in, to only find Lau as the only survivor in a cell, where everything is chard from the explosion around it. And it still doesn't change the fact of the impossibility of that being "part of a plan". Survivors or not, it somehow killed/knocked out every cop, so Joker could stroll around with keys in his hands, and take Lau out, who seemed to be the only one alive in the cell.

See david icke's explanation to that.

 

[david icke]

That is what I'm talking about. He would have to know every detail, and execute it to the last millisecond, in order for that to work. And The Joker was at the same distance as the other cops who had guns to him, while he was holding that guy at knife(glass)point, yet, they either died or got knocked out.

No, he wasn't exactly. The only person who was at the same distance was the cop he had hostage, and he could easily ko him himself at that moment. He also had that cop hostage in front of him as a shield.

edit: and it's common knowledge that a crook held in protective custody is held ina cell by himself, away from the other prisoners. Just as it was common knowledge , esp to crooks who have inside contacts, that Layu was being held in that building.

That's crazy to even try to think that's possible. That's like saying he knew he would be in a room, where he could overpower somebody, in order to take them out, to get the phone, to blow himself out.

Nope, you get one phone call as your legal right. Once the Joker got his phone call, he could set off the bomb.
Have you ever watched a heist movie? It's a movie, there are crazy plans that depend on this and that piece falling into place, pieces that are educated guesses as to what will probably happen.
You improvise with the pieces, but have some solid thought on what could actually happen to devise these pieces.
Would it work in real life? Probably not, but for a movie jail escape, I thought it was pretty good.

 

[Infinity9999x]

But he and The Joker were already in the cell together, and he was pleading for help. It didn't look like he knew that the guy sitting next to him put something in his chest. Again, I think a thug/goon did it.

He was simply talking about how much it hurt.

And again, since you could obviously tell from the man's comments that he was mentally unstable, I don't think he connected the idea that the Joker had done something bad to him. He thought the Joker was helping him.

 

[Ryan]

When I said it looked like he almost died, its because Dent did die and Gordon leaned down, looked at Batman then went for his radio, suggesting that he thought Batman was in distress. Watching the fall, from the height of that building I see no evidence of any slowing down whatsoever. Also, once they hit they car, he asks her right away if she's ok. I don't actually care when he fired the grapple gun but he should have fired it either before falling completely off the building or during the fall. He's done it in other movies, so I'd have no problem believing it here.
Thanks!

 

[Mr.?]

Yeah...but Batman is in an armored suit. And when he was falling after grabbing rachel his cape was open and did lessen the impact.

 

[Ryan]

Guess the armoured suit didn't help him much in that much smaller fall from the final act of the movie. He better go see Q from the Bond series to get a suit thats more reliable! )

 

[Mr.?]

It did help him though, he didn't die from the fall.

 

[Travesty]

Nope, you get one phone call as your legal right. Once the Joker got his phone call, he could set off the bomb.
Have you ever watched a heist movie? It's a movie, there are crazy plans that depend on this and that piece falling into place, pieces that are educated guesses as to what will probably happen.
You improvise with the pieces, but have some solid thought on what could actually happen to devise these pieces.
Would it work in real life? Probably not, but for a movie jail escape, I thought it was pretty good.

Haha, having a phone call is not a legal right, it's a courtesy, brought about from the precinct. There is no law that states you get a phone call, just a right to an attorney. Those are just myths you see on television/movies

No, he wasn't exactly. The only person who was at the same distance was the cop he had hostage, and he could easily ko him himself at that moment. He also had that cop hostage in front of him as a shield.

Wow. So you're telling me The Joker knew all of this, that everybody was going to be in the right position/place at the right time, and this was part of the scheme/plan? Plus, the blast came from behind Joker, while he had a ton of cops infront of him, and yet, everybody is knocked out or dead. I get all of you defending the movie, but this is going over the top. I can atleast admit to the faults in B89 or any Bat-flick for that matter, but you guys are dead set in proving this is entirely probable. I understand it's a movie, but its so out of left field, that it's not even funny.

You guys are telling me to get my facts straight, and I see you constantly making up your own....I just don't get it?

 

[Infinity9999x]

When I said it looked like he almost died, its because Dent did die and Gordon leaned down, looked at Batman then went for his radio, suggesting that he thought Batman was in distress. Watching the fall, from the height of that building I see no evidence of any slowing down whatsoever. Also, once they hit they car, he asks her right away if she's ok. I don't actually care when he fired the grapple gun but he should have fired it either before falling completely off the building or during the fall. He's done it in other movies, so I'd have no problem believing it here.
Thanks!

In regards to the fall, I dont' think it was the hight that killed Dent, I think he landed on his neck, and that was what killed him. Because, while it was a long fall, I don't think it was any longer than the Drop Batman let Maroni fall. In one of the concept art books for the movie, they also show a picture of this scene and the text reads, "Batman and Gordon standing over Dent, his neck broken."

So it seems to indicate that Dent landed awkwardly, and that caused his death, not the actual hight of the fall.

 

[david icke]

Haha, having a phone call is not a legal right, it's a courtesy, brought about from the precinct. There is no law that states you get a phone call, just a right to an attorney. Those are just myths you see on television/movies

Ok, so we're not talking about real life here right? We're talking about a movie, so they were playing with that myth, hence the joker saying 'I just want my phone call.'
So, has that always been a myth? I imagine it must've been law somewhere, sometime, to evolve into this movie myth.

Wow. So you're telling me The Joker knew all of this, that everybody was going to be in the right position/place at the right time, and this was part of the scheme/plan? Plus, the blast came from behind Joker, while he had a ton of cops infront of him, and yet, everybody is knocked out or dead. I get all of you defending the movie, but this is going over the top. I can atleast admit to the faults in B89 or any Bat-flick for that matter, but you guys are dead set in proving this is entirely probable. I understand it's a movie, but its so out of left field, that it's not even funny.

You guys are telling me to get my facts straight, and I see you constantly making up your own....I just don't get it?

So, I was wrong about the direction of the blast.
Anyway, I think you are just the kind of viewer who is just not going to enjoy any kind of heightened reality when it comes to things like jail breaks in movies, you'll let the details get in the way of a good story.
I'm sure you could just as easily poke holes in many comicbook plots too, in fact, just about all of them.
The point is, Nolan came up with an amusing and disturbing way of getting the Joker out of jail, getting a loyal loony to swallow an explosive mobile phone, using the MYTH of the 1 phone call as per movie tradition, and so on. Some folk will just not be happy with an entertaining take that fits with the character and strikes a perfect balance of humour and horror, because of course, you can poke at it and say 'it's not real because of this! and this! and that over there!'
And anyway, as I already said, with any plan there are variables you have to improvise with, just as when the cop was ignoring the joker's request for a phone call, the joker then goaded him into losing his cool so he could get the drop on him and take him hostage using some of the broken glass.
Sometimes, highly intelligent people, with a streak of the crazy for good measure, have the confidence of knowing they will be able to improvise their way out of something. That is also something that fits with the Joker's way of being. If certain facts, like knowing Lau would be seperated, and using the myth of the phone call, combined with the joker's confidence in himself to get past the 'norms', doesn't give you enough leeway to just sit back and enjoy the show, i don't know how you can enjoy most intelligent action adventure movies to be honest.

 

[Ryan]

Well according to Infinity9999x, it wasn't the suit that helped him it was the way that he fell that saved him. To be honest, I'm not trying to analyze the scenes of how the bodies fell, at what angle, what suit they wore, etc etc. Anyone can nitpick any scene in the movie to death and have opposing views on it. All I'm saying is, Batman fell from the top of a building that is extremely tall, landed on a car, and was ok and able to speak within seconds. Forget his relatively smaller fall with Dent, and forget the fact he was also carrying extra body weight (Rachel Dawes). To me, it just looked bad. Had it been Spiderman, I could have lived with it. But no suit would protect you from that kind of fall. I'm not a "realist" and think that everything has to be totally believeable either. I don't have any other problems with any other action scenes in Batman Begins or TDK, just this one. In the script it says that the two (Batman and Rachel) spin downward and then slow as he opens one wing of his cape. Had they clearly demonstrated that, even that I would have been fine with. The showed him gliding around in Hong Kong, and they showed him jump down to Maroni (a much smaller building) and I was fine with those scenes. I just find that in some of Nolan's films, that he makes quick cuts on scenes that sometimes need to be lengthed to be told properly. Even imdb points out his use of quick cutting scenes. Anyways, thanks again!

 

[david icke]

Well according to Infinity9999x, it wasn't the suit that helped him it was the way that he fell that saved him.

From what i understood of that point, it would be that, even if BM had fell and landed in the same awkward position as Dent did, the suit and neck brace would have saved him.

To be honest, I'm not trying to analyze the scenes of how the bodies fell, at what angle, what suit they wore, etc etc. Anyone can nitpick any scene in the movie to death and have opposing views on it. All I'm saying is, Batman fell from the top of a building that is extremely tall, landed on a car, and was ok and able to speak within seconds. Forget his relatively smaller fall with Dent, and forget the fact he was also carrying extra body weight (Rachel Dawes). To me, it just looked bad. Had it been Spiderman, I could have lived with it. But no suit would protect you from that kind of fall. I'm not a "realist" and think that everything has to be totally believeable either. I don't have any other problems with any other action scenes in Batman Begins or TDK, just this one. In the script it says that the two (Batman and Rachel) spin downward and then slow as he opens one wing of his cape. Had they clearly demonstrated that, even that I would have been fine with. The showed him gliding around in Hong Kong, and they showed him jump down to Maroni (a much smaller building) and I was fine with those scenes. I just find that in some of Nolan's films, that he makes quick cuts on scenes that sometimes need to be lengthed to be told properly. Even imdb points out his use of quick cutting scenes. Anyways, thanks again!

With the smaller fall he did not use his memory cloth glider at all. With the larger fall he got to use it, even though it was not designed for the wieght of two people, it still slowed their fall.
Tbh, i think you have to take into consideration that it's far harder to film that kind of shot than the other memory cloth shots you speak of, so what we got told us he used the glider to slow their fall, and it did so enough that falling onto a car with the armour protected them enough. Have your suspension of disbelief on standby while watching, but we do see the cape opening up and slowing their descent.

 

[returntovoid]

I just think this joy buzzer scene is hilarious (in the macabre slapstick humor, kind of sense) and that hysterical laugh at the end is just brilliant.

[YT]FpDQAMPCwuY[/YT]

 

[MysterioMenace]

Well according to Infinity9999x, it wasn't the suit that helped him it was the way that he fell that saved him. To be honest, I'm not trying to analyze the scenes of how the bodies fell, at what angle, what suit they wore, etc etc. Anyone can nitpick any scene in the movie to death and have opposing views on it. All I'm saying is, Batman fell from the top of a building that is extremely tall, landed on a car, and was ok and able to speak within seconds. Forget his relatively smaller fall with Dent, and forget the fact he was also carrying extra body weight (Rachel Dawes). To me, it just looked bad. Had it been Spiderman, I could have lived with it. But no suit would protect you from that kind of fall. I'm not a "realist" and think that everything has to be totally believeable either. I don't have any other problems with any other action scenes in Batman Begins or TDK, just this one. In the script it says that the two (Batman and Rachel) spin downward and then slow as he opens one wing of his cape. Had they clearly demonstrated that, even that I would have been fine with. The showed him gliding around in Hong Kong, and they showed him jump down to Maroni (a much smaller building) and I was fine with those scenes. I just find that in some of Nolan's films, that he makes quick cuts on scenes that sometimes need to be lengthed to be told properly. Even imdb points out his use of quick cutting scenes. Anyways, thanks again!

I definitely get what you’re saying. Comic Book films don’t have to subscribe to this realism trend, but Nolan is the instigator of it and his Batman franchise uses it more so than arguably any other. I could have bought the fall had this been in Tim Burtons Batman, where it’s clearly more comic oriented from practicality standing points, but for Nolan to give that scene the go-ahead really made it probably my most hated scene in the film alongside the Bat-cycle, I refuse to call it the Batpod as I think it sounds even cornier, climbs up the wall and gyroscopically turns itself around. I remembered rolling my eyes and thinking "This is realism?" If you’re going to petition for realism in your film, keep it that way!

 

[The Joker]

MM, I just read your sig, and I LOL'ed at your 'It doesn't exist' remark for the Batman and Robin rating

 

[Ryan]

Quote: Mysterio Menace "I could have bought the fall had this been in Tim Burtons Batman, where it’s clearly more comic oriented"

I never thought of that comparison but your absolutely right. David, my suspension of disbelief was on standby the entire film and in probably all films that I see, even historical ones. As I stated in my post, I really had no issues with the majority of the "faux realism" action that Nolan put into the film, including having Batman slowly gliding over Hong Kong. If Nolan can make a truck do a sommersault, he could have clearly showed Batman's cape opening up like a parachute (if that's what we're supposed to believe) and then slowly descent. Instead, they hit that car with quite alot of force while travelling at a high rate of speed. Why not go the extra mile and have the cape work as a parachute or as a glider then? If I can suspend belief for pretty everything else that's gone on in the film, why do this one right too. Sorry, I won't argue this point anymore, or justify it. I didn't like the scene and thought it was poorly edited. If others think its fine, thats ok too, just stating my opnion on the scene, and I'm sticking to it Thanks!

 

[Infinity9999x]

From what i understood of that point, it would be that, even if BM had fell and landed in the same awkward position as Dent did, the suit and neck brace would have saved him.
.

Whoa, whoa, wait, what? Are you telling me you think that if Batman fell on his head his stuit would save him? Yeah...No. I'm sorry, but you need a concrete brace around his neck and shocks on his head to stop him from breaking his neck.

In fact, the suit "saving him" for the Rachel fall is a very bad explanation. Thea armored suit isn't going to protect you very much. I was actually very annoyed with the scene where he fell with Rachel, because his Cape never really flared out the way it does when he activates it, they landed hard enough to bash the top of the roof in, and yet he still seemed ok. That bothered me as well.

The Dent fall I could live with. That looked to be no higher than 25 feet, and he hit some boards on the way down so it slowed his fall.

 

[Travesty]

If you’re going to petition for realism in your film, keep it that way!

And this is the reason why I don't like TDK-Joker, or even TDK as a whole. The atmosphere throughout the entire movie is so realistic, that it just seems silly that there is actually a man dressed as a bat fighting crime, or an evil clown causing chaos. It's pushing the "realism", to the point of a Joker that has to put on make-up, instead of perma-white skin, or a Joker who use real weapons, instead of his more "otherworldy" gadgets. I didn't have to many grips with BB about this, but TDK pushed the realism angle a little to far, and it took away a bunch of traits that I love about the characters. Give me a Joker who makes outlandish and sadistic jokes, not, under the breath, you kinda have to be paying attention in order to see/hear them, jokes. I understand TDK-Joker made some jokes, but they were very few, and even the "funnier" ones still seemed bland. He painted the truck so it reads Slaughter is the best medicine? Cool, but that still isn't that outlandish for my taste, and again, feels like a more dull interpretation of the character. You guys may like it, but I think it's a lackluster version of The Joker.

 

[Infinity9999x]

And this is the reason why I don't like TDK-Joker, or even TDK as a whole. The atmosphere throughout the entire movie is so realistic, that it just seems silly that there is actually a man dressed as a bat fighting crime, or an evil clown causing chaos. It's pushing the "realism", to the point of a Joker that has to put on make-up, instead of perma-white skin, or a Joker who use real weapons, instead of his more "otherworldy" gadgets. I didn't have to many grips with BB about this, but TDK pushed the realism angle a little to far, and it took away a bunch of traits that I love about the characters. Give me a Joker who makes outlandish and sadistic jokes, not, under the breath, you kinda have to be paying attention in order to see/hear them, jokes. I understand TDK-Joker made some jokes, but they were very few, and even the "funnier" ones still seemed bland. He painted the truck so it reads Slaughter is the best medicine? Cool, but that still isn't that outlandish for my taste, and again, feels like a more dull interpretation of the character. You guys may like it, but I think it's a lackluster version of The Joker.

I think too many people confuse Nolan's realism with stylistic choices. I highly doubt Nolan had makeup on the Joker because the white skin was "too unrealistic." From the concept art (where it certainly looked like they were going with the bleached skin look for a while) I would guess Nolan decided to go the makeup route simply because he liked the look. I was a staunch defender of perma-white ever since wayyyyyy back when the debate was going on weather or not he would be perma-white or not before the movie came out, but you have to admit, the Makeup look does offer some very interesting visual choices. It looks good, and I didn't have a problem with that.

Nolan easily could have incorporated a "realistic" version of the perma-white if he wanted. I think he just preferred the look of the makeup.

 

[david icke]

Whoa, whoa, wait, what? Are you telling me you think that if Batman fell on his head his stuit would save him? Yeah...No. I'm sorry, but you need a concrete brace around his neck and shocks on his head to stop him from breaking his neck.

Em, where did we see Dent fall on his head? We don't actually see how he hits, all I meant was that if he broke his neck because he hit the ground at a weird angle, it could be the kind of thing a strong neck brace could save you from.

In fact, the suit "saving him" for the Rachel fall is a very bad explanation. Thea armored suit isn't going to protect you very much. I was actually very annoyed with the scene where he fell with Rachel, because his Cape never really flared out the way it does when he activates it, they landed hard enough to bash the top of the roof in, and yet he still seemed ok. That bothered me as well.

From my own pov, with that kind of shot, two people falling at speed, twisting and turning, in order to do that as a practical stunt that looked real, it would be very hard to do the full cape expand shot.
I don't know maybe they could have done one, but I think it would have been at a sacrifice to the immediacy and speed of the sequence. It still opens a fair bit, enough to tell us that is what they expect us to believe happened.
The other memory cape shots are much easier to do.
I take this into consideration, and give the filmaker a pass on how much we see of the cape opening, as I'd rather it was a quick practical shot than a completely CGI one.
Even if they doi use some CGI there, I'm not sure, it's still a afst sequence and it's a quickish shot with the cape opening halfway or so.
But, I do understand y'all's problem with it, just explaining why I give it a pass, and take it that the cape opened enough to halt their descent that the armour helped a lot too.

edit: Oh, something else I take into consideration, is that in real life people have survived falls from great heights. I read about some guy who jumped out a plane, his parachute did not open, not even half way! and he landed without dying, without any Lucious Fox armour. Given we have a sci-fi type of glider in the process too, it can work for me. Give it 7days and it can work you too!

 

[Travesty]

I think too many people confuse Nolan's realism with stylistic choices. I highly doubt Nolan had makeup on the Joker because the white skin was "too unrealistic." From the concept art (where it certainly looked like they were going with the bleached skin look for a while) I would guess Nolan decided to go the makeup route simply because he liked the look. I was a staunch defender of perma-white ever since wayyyyyy back when the debate was going on weather or not he would be perma-white or not before the movie came out, but you have to admit, the Makeup look does offer some very interesting visual choices. It looks good, and I didn't have a problem with that.

Nolan easily could have incorporated a "realistic" version of the perma-white if he wanted. I think he just preferred the look of the makeup.

I actually like the look of TDK-Joker, but it's just another thing that was added onto my many other grips, and the fact remains, TDk is a tad but to realistic for my taste. I understand it's his style, but I think that takes away from the characters who don't live in a real-world.

 

[MysterioMenace]

MM, I just read your sig, and I LOL'ed at your 'It doesn't exist' remark for the Batman and Robin rating

Hah! Thank you, good sir. =]

edit: Oh, something else I take into consideration, is that in real life people have survived falls from great heights. I read about some guy who jumped out a plane, his parachute did not open, not even half way! and he landed without dying, without any Lucious Fox armour. Given we have a sci-fi type of glider in the process too, it can work for me. Give it 7days and it can work you too!

Yes they have, but first those are about one in a million odds. Probability states that, though possible, it's so improbable that it's not logically any sort of rational argument to even state this. It proves little to nothing. Say you have .1% chance with some attractive girl. Is it really worth blowing off all your other plans just to try to score with her? You can’t put up a reasonable argument for bailing on all your other plans with a percentage like that. Secondly, oftentimes what’s overlooked due to the shock of survival is the shape that they’re in. It’s so outrageous that they lived that the fact that they’re now some quadriplegic vegetable is swept under the rug. Take the record holding fall survival. It’s an absurd number that most anyone would call bull on the second they heard it, yet some man truly was sucked from their plane in a pressure tear at some 10,000 feet and managed to be alive after he hit. What they neglect to mention is that he’s now so ******ed that Corky from Life Goes On comparatively looks like freaking Einstein. After all, haven’t you heard of the man who climbed Everest…only to fall from a stepstool and die some years later? Finally, none of these instances included two bodies, doubling the impact.

Common dude, let’s be real. There’s nothing remotely realistic about that scene.

 

[Cain]

Nolan's shtick with these movies is NOT "realism" it's a juxtaposition between comic books and the real world. Basically asking "what if these outlandish comic book scenarios where to happen in a world that was similar to ours?" I still don't understand why people find that so hard to comprehend almost 5 years later.

 

[MysterioMenace]

Nolan's shtick with these movies is NOT "realism" it's a juxtaposition between comic books and the real world. Basically asking "what if these outlandish comic book scenarios where to happen in a world that was similar to ours?" I still don't understand why people find that so hard to comprehend almost 5 years later.

I’m somewhat mixed on this as basically you contradict yourself. From what I recall, he’s been known to call it “heightened realism,” meaning it's unrealistic concepts done in a practical way. Ex: Guy dresses up like a bat, jumps rooftop to rooftop, drives tank, fights crime and somehow managed to survive when horribly outnumbered, etc. So you take Batman and say “How would the Batmobile be done in real life?” or “If someone really wanted to become batman, what are the real-world grounds they’d have to adhere to?” So I disagree! That shows that Nolan’s thing entire is realism, it’s just not inherently real concepts. It’s about lending reasonableness to fantasy.

In which case I find the fall scene with Rachel to betray that.