Comics Why I was very saddened by the artistic shift of Ditko to Romita Sr. in the 60's

[CConn]

So antonydelfini is actually very saddened by Stan Lee?

 

[Dragon]

Well, everybody knows that Ditko couldn't draw women (and probably couldn't have pulled off Romita's Mary Jane in a million years), although he was improving artistically with each issue.

But it was more than just stylistic changes when Romita took over. The overall tone, with regards to Peter's relationships between supporting characters, really changed as well. For example, before Romita took over, Peter is still pinning over Betty, but immediately after Romita takes over, Peter practically regards her as almost a sister rather than the love of his life. Ned and Peter were practically coming to blows and then they reach a mutual understanding. Peter and Gwen's banter was on the level of those romantic comedies where the two of them can't stand each other and yet can't help but be drawn to each other to where they became more flirtacious. (This actually lead me to think that Ditko most likely originally wanted a love triangle with Betty and Gwen--with a preferance towards Betty--with MJ as a running gag as the unseen "beauty" that Peter never has time to see). And it isn't long after that when Peter's ready to move out and room up with Harry, who mere issues ago each thought were stuck-up snobs. Also, Peter is a lot more confident and talking "hip-cat" slang than he did when Ditko was doing the art; he even buys a motorcycle as a reflection of his new hipper attitude. Obviously, you can say that Peter "matured" and that, as in real life, he became more assertive and not regarded as the unpopular nerd as he was in high school. But actually, because more college age kids where reading Spidey, Stan probably figured he could make Peter relate to his audience better by making him less of a "square." I'd also argue that, among other things, that this was part of the "creative differences" between Lee and Ditko that lead to their break-up. (Remember also that Ditko was actually plotting most of the stories and Stan Lee did the dialogue). And, looking through the letters pages of those older issues, there were quite a few fans who didn't like this "hipper" version of Peter Parker and preferred the "squarer" Peter Parker when Ditko was on the title. It certainly would be an interesting exercise to imagine what Amazing Spider-Man would've been like from a story and character development standpoint if Ditko had remained on the title.

Well, but if you look at those issues- Peter was already over Betty before Steve left. In Steve's last issue Peter even says he no longer has romantic interest in Betty. When she was missing he was only interested in her welfare as a friend. It was pretty clear that from circa ASM #30 onward Stan & Steve intended to break them up.

Stan and to a point Steve meant for Gwen to be "The One". But in classic Peter Paker style, the relationship had to happen gradually and with obstacles. It just wouldn't work for a girl like Gwen (or even subsequently MJ) to fall into Peter's arms. Everything he gets has to be after a struggle.

There are many stories about what broke up the Lee-Ditko team. Some say it was over the Goblin's identity. Some say that Ditko didn't WANT Peter to grow-up, wanting him to remain eternally a high school kid. It could've also been that he just wanted to move on and do other things.

And it isn't as though when Romita took over Peter became "hip". It was still nearly two years before Peter and Gwen got together after John took over. But every character has to evolve. After living as Spider-Man, Peter would have to grow and become more confident. And he was always a social being. He just wasn't successful at it. In Amazing Fantasy #15 we see Peter try to make friends. And even after Romita took over, and moreover Peter got together with Gwen, Peter was still seen as being a bit of a square or a straight by comparison to the other kids.

And finally, I think there was more to Stan's decision about Peter's evolution than reflecting the readershhip. I think he simply realized that by expanding Peter's relationships he had more story-telling possibilities. After 3 years of Peter living in solitude with no friends, the writing becomes stale. You can't just have Peter projecting though balloons forever about how tough his life is. Moving him to college, out of Aunt May's jurisdiction created further story opportunities. Remember how in ASM #12 Peter couldn't go after Ock because he was living at home? That had to change if Stan was going to keep the stories interesting.

 

[mre]

So antonydelfini is actually very saddened by Stan Lee?

That's what I meant to point out, yes.

 

[Dangerous]

The changes Romita gave to Peter did it for me. I was already investe and inlove in seeing a Peter that is ordinary looking, always looked down by others, always an outsider, so why change all that into Peter beings all of a sudden good looking and very sociable and cool? If they started it that way, Peter as a handsome and sociable guy, then i wouldn't be mad because they did not change anything. But since they started out with a different Peter, one that is always hopeless and bullied and considered many as uncool, i already felt love and investment in that character. It's like falling in love with a Bruce Wayne that is rich handsome and popular alpha male and then suddenly turning him into a skinny ugly bullied guy. Do you guys agree with me?

No.

The geeky insecure Peter Parker evolved into a way more confident Peter Parker through being Spider-Man, defeating super villains and having superpowers- and that makes PERFECT sense. Why would he forever remain a ***** if he was kicking ass and taking names with guys way more of a threat than anything Flash Thompson could bring to the table? He wouldn’t, that would have been really dumb if he stayed the same.

He was good looking when Ditko drew him, just not as good looking as he became. People change, he still looked like PP but he looked batter because he started to comb his hair different and radiated more confidence. Similarly he bulked up through the rigours he put his body through during his career as Spider-Man.

Yeah he had incredibly hot gfs in Gwen and then MJ, but he was often saddened that although he knew or was with them, he did not have enough money to take them out. Either that or he always had to disappear when there was trouble to turn into Spidey,- and this made them think he was a wuss. The money troubles never seemed to really leave him, since w/ his freelance photo work he had to help his aunt out and spend a little on having fun w/ his girl. Fair enough. Eventually he was living free in an apartment funded by Harry’s dad because he could not make enough to pay rent. I know that would make me feel like a spazz.

 

[Jack O Lantern]

This is why i was so saddened by the departure of Steve Ditko and the arrival of John Romita Sr. in the Amazing Spider-Man:

Some critics note that Romita's work, in a sense, turned the Ditko elements of the Amazing Spider-Man title on its head. Recall, if you will, that Spider-Man originally represented a hopeless and mistreated nebbish bludgeoned by circumstance and bullied by all manner of predatious alpha males. Romita's treatment, however, took away a few points of the character's outsider essence; his pencil seemed unable to make even ugly things ugly, so the new art gradually turned Peter Parker into a vigorous and handsome alpha male himself, plus invested him with a female companion (Mary Jane) detailed with such an eyesome manner that Romita's renderings of this character belong in the category of Great Comics Cheesecake (see the work of Nick Cardy and Will Eisner). The eye, at this point, made a lie of Peter Parker's claims to misery; how could such a handsome young man connected with such a knockout female significant other allow himself the luxury of unhappiness?
-http://www.fortunecity.com/tatooine/niven/142/talentpo/tp16.html

The changes Romita gave to Peter did it for me. I was already investe and inlove in seeing a Peter that is ordinary looking, always looked down by others, always an outsider, so why change all that into Peter beings all of a sudden good looking and very sociable and cool? If they started it that way, Peter as a handsome and sociable guy, then i wouldn't be mad because they did not change anything. But since they started out with a different Peter, one that is always hopeless and bullied and considered many as uncool, i already felt love and investment in that character. It's like falling in love with a Bruce Wayne that is rich handsome and popular alpha male and then suddenly turning him into a skinny ugly bullied guy. Do you guys agree with me?

I tell ya, only a comic book fan on an internet site thinks like that. Why is it impossible for a handsome guy with a hot girl to have problems?

 

[Kool-Aid]

America likes good looking people in their entertainment reguardless of whether or not they are supposed to be dorks. Chad Micheal Murry was supposed to be a dork in One Tree Hill. lol