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Comics Exactly what was Kraven trying to accomplish in 'The Last Hunt'

November Rain

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I've had this book for a while and the message i always got from it was that Kraven was trying to prove to peter that he could be a better spiderman than he was. This was by doing a task pete couldn't do on his own in capturing Vermin and then letting pete know this by pitting them against each other and having pete lose.

THen pete ultimately did beat vermin so Kraven was cheated out of his death even though he was unaware.

that's all good and dandy

BUT

Re-reading it recently, it seems that spidey could have easily taken vermin on his own and he had a chance to finish the fight and hesistated, giving vermin the head's up. So this proves nothing to Kraven. He also lets vermin go as the innocent party and lets spidey go as well knowing ultimately that spidey would aprehend him.

SO knowing all of this, what was Kraven able to take from this encounter that warranted his ultimate victory and him ending his life?

To me, it looked like he would always be spidey's inferior on this current re-read and i'm getting mixed messages from the tale itself.
 
I think Kraven wanted to prove that he could defeat Spider-man, take his place, and be a better Spider-man than Peter was. The reason Kraven used poisoned darts was so that Spidey would survive the attack and know that Kraven had the final victory. It was a way to shame a man that he both hated and in a way respected. I think Kraven knew deep down in his soul that Spider-man was more honourable than he, and knowing this was more than he was able to live with. So, after he was able to defeat what he saw as his greatest prey he had nothing else to live for. The spider had been vanquished, and his mission was over. And with nothing left to live for Kraven felt that he had earned the peace that Death would bring.

That's what I got from the story, but you have to remember that Kraven was insane. And at that stage of his life he had totally given in to the visions, or voices that drove him.
 
But spidey easily could have defeated vermin on his own and chose not to pursue the physical encounter on multiple occasions. He even did this infront of Kraven which puts a big question mark on what type of victory he actually gained?

While kraven chose to take out his aggresion against spiderman out on vermin to win, peter didn't choose to take out his aggression against kraven and being buried in the ground to win even though he easily could. He held back and vermin took advantage of him.

that in no way provides the decisive victory Kraven was longing for.

not only this but he Let parker go after vermin knowing spidey would capture him eventually in a similar light to how he had been defeated by him all those times in teh past.

I'm completely puzzled by what sense of victory he gained by this experience. ALthough his methods may have been extreme, kraven was incredibly sane and methodical about his approach to it all. For him to be so insane that he couldn't comprehend the events infront of him doesn't fit with his profile during that arc.
 
That's what I got from the story, but you have to remember that Kraven was insane. And at that stage of his life he had totally given in to the visions, or voices that drove him.

EXACTLY. You have to dig upon the layers of the story, it's very abstract.

It delves very much into the insanity, and the different aspects of Kraven's personality, family history, as well as his failures.

I guess the book means different things to different people... To me, Kraven proved that he could HUNT and CAPTURE the Spider.... But when he tried to prove he could be a better version of him, I think that Kraven eventually realised to be the 'Spider,' you have to have a sense of compassion.

On top of that, I think he just wanted an honourable death, and with what happened to his family name, it was one of the thiungs that drove him to insanity.

There's SO MANY different aspects about that book, I could go on all day, but I won't ;)

One of the all time best Spidey stories IMO
 
If his goal was to be better than the spider and he ultimately failed before his death

1. Why would he still kill himself

2. Why would he kill himself under the illusion of grand achievement when ultimatley this is the same as any other failed scheme he has performed in the past?
 
November Rain said:
For him to be so insane that he couldn't comprehend the events infront of him doesn't fit with his profile during that arc.

Well, did you read JMD's story of how he wrote it? It was originally a Batman story, couldn't do it for various reasons.

He then moved to Marvel, and Spider-Man much time later, and still had that idea lying around. He desperatley wanted to do a Spider-Man story featuring certain villains, but was shot down. He then saw the old draft he made, and realised that he could do it with Spidey. He was going to create a new villain, but then realised that Kraven PERFECTLT fit the bill.

And seeing that Kraven was a character that people hadn't cared about in years, it was a ago.

He also said that changing the hero from Bats to Spidey added a lot more to the story and it turned out better than he could've imagined.

I think it was the afterword in the latest hardback of this story :up:
 
If his goal was to be better than the spider and he ultimately failed before his death

1. Why would he still kill himself

2. Why would he kill himself under the illusion of grand achievement when ultimatley this is the same as any other failed scheme he has performed in the past?

1. He planned on killing himslef all along

2. Cause he's insane, and he did pretty much beat Peter... That could've very well been a bullet that hit Peter at the end of part 1
 
his goal was on killing himself after finally winning not losing.

his goal wasn't to kill peter at all, rather to show him the ultimate defeat by being a better spiderman than he was. But in taking down vermin and having spidey confront him again, the comic clearly shows parker taking the upper hand in battle and hesitating thus not clearly giving kraven the clear victory he wanted. He also lets spidey go knowing he'd take him down.

so all in all, the whole story was in vain and kraven got nothing from it. He could have killed himself before it all started.
 
so all in all, the whole story was in vain and kraven got nothing from it. He could have killed himself before it all started.

I think, that is also part of the story. The message that suicide is pointless
and an empty victory. That point was made in a very dark and disturbing way, which is more interesting than preaching at the reader. What makes this story so good is that it is open to interpretation. Just like a really good piece of music can mean different things to different people.
 
EXACTLY. You have to dig upon the layers of the story, it's very abstract.

It delves very much into the insanity, and the different aspects of Kraven's personality, family history, as well as his failures.

I guess the book means different things to different people... To me, Kraven proved that he could HUNT and CAPTURE the Spider.... But when he tried to prove he could be a better version of him, I think that Kraven eventually realised to be the 'Spider,' you have to have a sense of compassion.

On top of that, I think he just wanted an honourable death, and with what happened to his family name, it was one of the thiungs that drove him to insanity.

There's SO MANY different aspects about that book, I could go on all day, but I won't ;)

One of the all time best Spidey stories IMO

That's pretty much what I got out of it.

Kraven sought to prove the following things:
1) He could defeat the Spider.
2) He could kill the Spider.
3) He could be the Spider.
4) He could be better than the Spider.

He proved numbers 1 and 2 right away. Spider-Man isn't invincible, and he never will be. That's what makes him interesting. The one time he WAS pretty much invincible, he didn't want it (Captain Universe). He isn't invincible, but to Kraven, he was the unbeatable foe, and to defeat him conclusively was his primary goal.

Numbers 3 and 4 were where Kraven began to lose himself. He thought he understood the Spider, and thus, he could become this for that had eluded him for so long. He truly put Spider-Man on a pedestal...somewhere that even Peter Parker doesn't place himself. Kraven sought to replace Kraven by using his own prowess, ferocity, and desire to do so....not knowing that NONE of these things embody the spirit of Spider-Man.

He thought, as he captured Vermin, a for Spider-Man had never defeated on his own, that he had proved to be Peter's superior. As soon as he witnessed the fight, he knew he was wrong. He saw the embodiment of what made Spider-Man a hero, and realized it was THE MAN, not THE SPIDER that had beaten him for all those years. As he watched Spider-Man take compassion on Vermin, he saw what he was missing....and this drove him to suicide.
 
I think wolvie 2020 made a good point when he touched on compassion. Kraven had almost a Punisher-style mentality. When he went after the drug dealers, he killed one of them. He beat the crap out of the two guys attacking MJ. At the end, when Peter is facing Vermin as Kraven watches, Peter turns his back on Vermin, who then gets the upper hand on him. Thats when Kraven intervenes and says "The point has been made." If he hadnt stopped Vermin, Spidey may well have been killed. In Kraven's eyes, Spider-Man's refusal to kill Vermin nearly cost him his life. Kraven didnt share the "weakness" of compassion. I think in his mind, that made him a better Spider than Spider-Man. Remember, he saw "the Spider" as the personification of all that is wrong and evil in the world. He "beat" the Spider by being even more harsh than it was.

As for killing himself, I agree that was his plan the whole time. He gained his honor, he beat his unbeatable enemy and he went out "on top." He had nothing else to live for, and he couldnt chance losing the hard won honor that he had just gained. So he ended it.
 
Kraven announces his goal in the first issue: "Honor will be restored."

He knows that he will die soon (or maybe he wants to die soon), but he wants to die with honor. He considered being beaten by Spider-Man so many times over the years to be disgraceful, so he sought to regain his honor by stealing Spidey's. First "kill" Spider-Man; not actually murder him, but rather show him that he has the power to end Spider-Man's life. Then, he wanted make feel Spidey even more inferior by showing him that he can do what Spider-Man does, but better (i.e. beating Vermin himself when Spidey could barely do it with Cap's help).

In the end, Kraven succeeded. He showed Spider-Man that he was superior to him in every way, which restored his honor and allowed him to die with dignity.
 
That's pretty much what I got out of it.

Kraven sought to prove the following things:
1) He could defeat the Spider.
2) He could kill the Spider.
3) He could be the Spider.
4) He could be better than the Spider.

He proved numbers 1 and 2 right away. Spider-Man isn't invincible, and he never will be. That's what makes him interesting. The one time he WAS pretty much invincible, he didn't want it (Captain Universe). He isn't invincible, but to Kraven, he was the unbeatable foe, and to defeat him conclusively was his primary goal.

Numbers 3 and 4 were where Kraven began to lose himself. He thought he understood the Spider, and thus, he could become this for that had eluded him for so long. He truly put Spider-Man on a pedestal...somewhere that even Peter Parker doesn't place himself. Kraven sought to replace Kraven by using his own prowess, ferocity, and desire to do so....not knowing that NONE of these things embody the spirit of Spider-Man.

He thought, as he captured Vermin, a for Spider-Man had never defeated on his own, that he had proved to be Peter's superior. As soon as he witnessed the fight, he knew he was wrong. He saw the embodiment of what made Spider-Man a hero, and realized it was THE MAN, not THE SPIDER that had beaten him for all those years. As he watched Spider-Man take compassion on Vermin, he saw what he was missing....and this drove him to suicide.

Aloha,
I believe you hit it spot on with your assessment. What makes Spider-Man such a great character is the man Peter Paker within the costume. Bad guys read newspapers. They see how Spidey is demonized in the media, yet, time and time again, this guy puts his life on the line to protect the innocent.No matter how royal and noble Kravenoff considered himself, he knew he could never be the man that Spider-Man was.As a Hunter he could trap the Spider, but deep down he knew that he could never be the Man that Spider-Man was.This also holds true for Dr. Doom and Reed Richards.
Spidey rules
 
Kraven announces his goal in the first issue: "Honor will be restored."

He knows that he will die soon (or maybe he wants to die soon), but he wants to die with honor. He considered being beaten by Spider-Man so many times over the years to be disgraceful, so he sought to regain his honor by stealing Spidey's. First "kill" Spider-Man; not actually murder him, but rather show him that he has the power to end Spider-Man's life. Then, he wanted make feel Spidey even more inferior by showing him that he can do what Spider-Man does, but better (i.e. beating Vermin himself when Spidey could barely do it with Cap's help).

In the end, Kraven succeeded. He showed Spider-Man that he was superior to him in every way, which restored his honor and allowed him to die with dignity.
at first glance, this is what i thought, but read vermin's fight with spidey again.

spidey had the upper hand and hesistated.

Kraven also let spidey go, knowing he would beat vermin.

so he didn't suceed in anything.
 
I think wolvie 2020 made a good point when he touched on compassion. Kraven had almost a Punisher-style mentality. When he went after the drug dealers, he killed one of them. He beat the crap out of the two guys attacking MJ. At the end, when Peter is facing Vermin as Kraven watches, Peter turns his back on Vermin, who then gets the upper hand on him. Thats when Kraven intervenes and says "The point has been made." If he hadnt stopped Vermin, Spidey may well have been killed. In Kraven's eyes, Spider-Man's refusal to kill Vermin nearly cost him his life. Kraven didnt share the "weakness" of compassion. I think in his mind, that made him a better Spider than Spider-Man. Remember, he saw "the Spider" as the personification of all that is wrong and evil in the world. He "beat" the Spider by being even more harsh than it was.

As for killing himself, I agree that was his plan the whole time. He gained his honor, he beat his unbeatable enemy and he went out "on top." He had nothing else to live for, and he couldnt chance losing the hard won honor that he had just gained. So he ended it.
but the look in his eye he gives spidey when he's about to go on after vermin contradicts him, kraven must know spidey could beat him.

if they hadn't included those scene of spidey pounding in on vermin and then stopping, the story would have made more sense but it clearly shows spidey was more than able to deal with him on his own but he didn't want to take out his aggression on kraven on vermin and that's why he hesistated. Kraven clearly saw this and surely it must leave him hollow but it doesn't.

At his death he knows Spidey could take vermin at his home but didn't and also that spidey will take him after he escapes.

THis doesn't prove any sense of superiority which would restore any honour.

He's pretty much back to square one. His plan backfired and it leaves him with no reason to kill himself.
 
Maybe he was just sick of failing all the time, I don't know, I haven't read The Last Hunt in quite sometime. Perhaps I'll take another lookfor the heck of it.
 
but the look in his eye he gives spidey when he's about to go on after vermin contradicts him, kraven must know spidey could beat him.

if they hadn't included those scene of spidey pounding in on vermin and then stopping, the story would have made more sense but it clearly shows spidey was more than able to deal with him on his own but he didn't want to take out his aggression on kraven on vermin and that's why he hesistated. Kraven clearly saw this and surely it must leave him hollow but it doesn't.

At his death he knows Spidey could take vermin at his home but didn't and also that spidey will take him after he escapes.

THis doesn't prove any sense of superiority which would restore any honour.

He's pretty much back to square one. His plan backfired and it leaves him with no reason to kill himself.


Well I guess we're going to have to put this down to opinion. Like I said before, many people read this story in different ways. That's why I love abstract storylines, (which JMD is very good at.) Different people take different things from it.

While I do understand your point of view, myself, (and others here,) see things from a different angle

:yay:
 
the text contradicts itself in places.

it seems there are two camps

the ones who think he beat spidey on all accounts and for them i say, why did he not take into account spidey's hesistation when he was pummling vermin and also let spidey go knowing he was going to get vermin

and

the ones (like yourself) who felt kraven did not obtain his victory on all accounts to which i say why did he feel his honour was restored or a sense of satisfaction and why did he kill himself when he did not accomplish that to which he set out to do.



the only comprimise i could make is that kraven realised that he was a better spider but maybe it was the man that beat him and once he realised this, he no longer felt he needed to go on with the struggle. Which perhaps means he didn't go out to get the victory he wanted but what he got was more important.

I dunno, it seems a lot more complicated on second glance. those few scenes of confusion really mess up the original thoughts on it.
 
the text contradicts itself in places.

it seems there are two camps

the ones who think he beat spidey on all accounts and for them i say, why did he not take into account spidey's hesistation when he was pummling vermin and also let spidey go knowing he was going to get vermin

and

the ones (like yourself) who felt kraven did not obtain his victory on all accounts to which i say why did he feel his honour was restored or a sense of satisfaction and why did he kill himself when he did not accomplish that to which he set out to do.



the only comprimise i could make is that kraven realised that he was a better spider but maybe it was the man that beat him and once he realised this, he no longer felt he needed to go on with the struggle. Which perhaps means he didn't go out to get the victory he wanted but what he got was more important.

I dunno, it seems a lot more complicated on second glance. those few scenes of confusion really mess up the original thoughts on it.

Aloha,
Ultimately, you are trying to find logic out of someone who was insane.From the start, Kraven was on a self destructive downward spiral.
Spidey rules
 
I've had this book for a while and the message i always got from it was that Kraven was trying to prove to peter that he could be a better spiderman than he was. This was by doing a task pete couldn't do on his own in capturing Vermin and then letting pete know this by pitting them against each other and having pete lose.

THen pete ultimately did beat vermin so Kraven was cheated out of his death even though he was unaware.

that's all good and dandy

BUT

Re-reading it recently, it seems that spidey could have easily taken vermin on his own and he had a chance to finish the fight and hesistated, giving vermin the head's up. So this proves nothing to Kraven. He also lets vermin go as the innocent party and lets spidey go as well knowing ultimately that spidey would aprehend him.

SO knowing all of this, what was Kraven able to take from this encounter that warranted his ultimate victory and him ending his life?

To me, it looked like he would always be spidey's inferior on this current re-read and i'm getting mixed messages from the tale itself.


Maybe he was just crazy? :yay:
 
As self destructive as he was, there was nothing particularly crazy about his methods...

Kraven at this point was only a tad bit further down the line than batman was...

I thought his actions were very methodical and some slight things in the penultimate issue just seemed to contradict one another..

i've brought the issue in today so i'll be quoting some bits from it to further highlight this
 
Maybe he was just crazy? :yay:
The thing about this is if he is indeed 'crazy' then this story gives us nothing

it tells us nothing about spidey,
it tells us nothing about kraven

and ultimately is just a long winded tale of killing off a character.
 
but the look in his eye he gives spidey when he's about to go on after vermin contradicts him, kraven must know spidey could beat him.
He knows but he lost his interest then. He proved his right to himself and it was enough to him.
 
Aloha,
I believe you hit it spot on with your assessment. What makes Spider-Man such a great character is the man Peter Paker within the costume. Bad guys read newspapers. They see how Spidey is demonized in the media, yet, time and time again, this guy puts his life on the line to protect the innocent.No matter how royal and noble Kravenoff considered himself, he knew he could never be the man that Spider-Man was.As a Hunter he could trap the Spider, but deep down he knew that he could never be the Man that Spider-Man was.This also holds true for Dr. Doom and Reed Richards.
Spidey rules

Praise from Donald Thomas?! I can now die in peace...:cwink:
 

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