About Kingdom Come

[Elijya]

I shall certainly try with the mythology idea - but the cynic in me thinks they'll say myths and legends are silly and stupid too.

Then remind them that most myths and legends were stone cold fact for many of the cultures that believed in them, as real to them as Christ is to Christians or Mohammed to Muslims.

When Christ taught the masses, he used parables, tales demonstrating morality. What are superhero tales but that same concept with more complexity and a bit of fantasy sprinkled on it?

but yeah, definitely given the other reading material for the class, Watchman or Marvels would have been MUCH better choices

 

[El Bastardo]

I assumed they could handle reading a good book with iconic and cultural-institution superheroes. Heh.

I wanted to pitch Ultimates Volume 1, but I decided instead that I wanted to do a research/presentation on it instead. The fact that it's hardcover and $30 bucks, too, I think made it a bit less appealing than Kingdom Come. ... Why? I don't know. It's still cheaper than a majority of textbooks. I had to pay something like $60 for a used textbook not thicker than an inch, and paperback. >_<

As for the professor who's teaching the class... She has no experience with the superhero genre, and has very little familiarity with the superheroes at all. Not too big on pop culture, it seems. That said, she's learning with the rest of them (and perhaps I should have spoken to her about, in this instance, being the effective teacher, but too late and oh well), certainly and definitely looking at it with an open mind, finding it fascinating and enjoyable, and not saying "it's a superhero book, and therefore it's stupid." She's often backed up my defense of it and gone against what other students have said.

 

[Elijya]

I she on the net? Fel free to link her to this thread

I assume she has an interest in comics if she started this class, and primarily non-superheroes. Just in case she hasn't heard of them, she should REALLY look into these comics:


Y-The Last Man
Sandman
Fables
100 Bullets
Transmetropolitan
Blankets
Box Office Poison
Tricked
Strangers in Paradise
Road to Perdition
Black Hole
Bone
Persepolis
From Hell
Mail Order Bride
ANYTHING by Will Eisner

I'm sure she's heard of at least some of these, and she may not be interested in some (I don't know her or what she likes) but in terms of non-power fantasy (i.e. superhero) graphic novels, these're some of the best

 

[El Bastardo]

Were I to link her to this thread, I'd probably have to edit out the comments I made toward my classmates. Hehe.

Persepolis, yes, she knows of. Also Maus, and some other one... Palestine, I think it's called. Someone suggested we use Road to Perdition for the class, but I think it's because he owns the movie and wanted to get out of having to read the fourth book. Heh. History of Violence is another one.

 

[LibrarianThorne]

I assumed they could handle reading a good book with iconic and cultural-institution superheroes. Heh.

I wanted to pitch Ultimates Volume 1, but I decided instead that I wanted to do a research/presentation on it instead. The fact that it's hardcover and $30 bucks, too, I think made it a bit less appealing than Kingdom Come. ... Why? I don't know. It's still cheaper than a majority of textbooks. I had to pay something like $60 for a used textbook not thicker than an inch, and paperback. >_<

As for the professor who's teaching the class... She has no experience with the superhero genre, and has very little familiarity with the superheroes at all. Not too big on pop culture, it seems. That said, she's learning with the rest of them (and perhaps I should have spoken to her about, in this instance, being the effective teacher, but too late and oh well), certainly and definitely looking at it with an open mind, finding it fascinating and enjoyable, and not saying "it's a superhero book, and therefore it's stupid." She's often backed up my defense of it and gone against what other students have said.

Bleh to the Ultimates. I love the series, but it's no great work of the industry. If you wanted something from Marvel, I'd suggest the Squadron Supreme or Marvels.

Kingdom Come is a bit of a 'deep end' sort of work, and while it stands as my personal favorite comic, a good introductory piece it isn't. I'd almost recommend something like the Hard Travelling Heroes era of Green Lantern/Green Arrow or the Watchmen.

Alternatively, the Transmetropolitan series or Uncle Sam would have been interesting choices. I know that at my university, Transmetropolitan volume 3 and Uncle Sam are used in Polisci 101.

 

[Elijya]

yeah, Ultimates is the "Independence Day" of comics. Entertaining, but it ain't gonna win an Academy Award

History of Violence I thought of, but the book isn't as deep as the movie

Green Lantern/Green Arrow is a landmark saga for comics... but for the period it was written in. It's relevent to the history of the medium, but it's not gonna win anybody over in this day and age.

Uncle Sam woulda have been a good choice in general, although it's not superhero, and Transmetropolitan would be an excellent example of a cyberpunk novel in comics form, but the whole series is also ten books

 

[TheCorpulent1]

If you want to look at it from an artistic standpoint, since you said you're looking at comics as a medium, tell them that KC is one of the finest examples of painted graphic storytelling in existence. If they open a copy of the trade, they'll see that for themselves. Alex Ross was a perfect choice for the epic grandiosity and powerful imagery that KC's story demanded.

 

[Elijya]

eh, but from what he's saying, most people probably didn't think of the book as epic or grandiose

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Then those people don't appreciate KC at all. Hugeness of scale is a major component of it. It's the Iliad of superhero tales. If they can't see that, there's probably no helping them.

 

[El Bastardo]

The Ultimates would have been a choice on basis of its art in reference to McCloud's Understanding Comics, as well as its ability to stand alone and completely introduce the characters. In retrospect, it would have taken some of the complaints out of it.

But, really. I don't think the problem is so much the text as the ignorant attitudes they're displaying. Not looking at something with an open mind is, after all, a display of ignorance, and it's what they're doing.

They notice the art. Some of them complain that it's hard to look at, or that it's too busy, but they notice it. I don't think they've related it to the story yet. Some are coming along with it very nicely... if this is a book only the advanced reader should read, then I have persuaded some of the more open-minded classmates over to the dark side.

I'm going to hit them, either tomorrow or Tuesday, with the mythological references, see if I get anywhere.

 

[Elijya]

They sound like a crowd who's seen too many Woddy Allen or Orsen Welles films, and now have an appreciation for "fine cinema" and find themselves unable to find enjoyment or any value in your typical action movie

 

[gregtestagent]

I'm curious to know what your teacher thought of the choice and if your teacher had read it before... what's your teacher's background?

Like the Sarah Silverman avatar there Lackey I always found her kinda hot.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

They sound like a crowd who's seen too many Woddy Allen or Orsen Welles films, and now have an appreciation for "fine cinema" and find themselves unable to find enjoyment or any value in your typical action movie

Why not just call them snooty? They made a word for it, why not just use it?

 

[El Bastardo]

They sound like a crowd who's seen too many Woddy Allen or Orsen Welles films, and now have an appreciation for "fine cinema" and find themselves unable to find enjoyment or any value in your typical action movie

They probably wouldn't know "fine cinema" if it kicked them in their rears.

Oh, something I thought of:
This one kid in the class certainly has superhero experience. However, he's the kind of reader who reads, typically, independent stuff rather than DC or Marvel, and thus believes himself better than the typical superhero reader. He, for instance, praises Watchmen and Alan Moore, but condemns Kingdom Come and Waid.
Oh, and he also said that Spider-man was a grounded-in-reality superhero who is in no way melodramatic. Kingdom Come, however, is -very- melodramatic.

Spider-Man is the melodramatic soap opera of comics. >.>

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Hahahahaha, that guy sounds like a great person to keep around for unintentional humor.

 

[El Bastardo]

Hahahahaha, that guy sounds like a great person to keep around for unintentional humor.

Or to hit with a big stick.

 

[Anubis]

You'll never find a more, hypocritical, and elitist group in the world than Comic book fans. We draw lines over everything. non superhero verses superhero, DC vs Marvel, Art vs Writing, Love the X-Men but hate homosexual characters, it doesn't matter. We've all done it in some form or another. It's kinda refreshing, wallowing in the hypocrisy of it all. Just a few hours ago I said people that dig Jim Lee's art over Frank Quietly's art are interested in style over substance. And yet, I write this right now. We are all a bunch of magnificent bastards aren't we?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Hypocrites, yes. Bastards... that's between you, your mom, and the mailman.

 

[Anubis]

You know Corp, I could...burst your bubble, but I'll leave that to your mom to finally tell you exactly why you look so much like Nipsey Russell.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

If only!

 

[MaskedManJRK]

If it were me, I would have chose Watchmen. It's a pretty good combination of powerfull heroes with human insecurities/flaws.

If your classmates could call THAT immature, then "da' nile" isn't just a river in Egypt anymore.

 

[MaskedManJRK]

As for Kingdom Come, I would also mention the biblical references in the story. Not just the Revalations / end of the world stuff that's pretty plain to see, but how most of the characters take up a biblical character in some senses.

Both Superman and Captain Marvel are Jesus figures. Superman's obvious, because he's the guy who's trying to preach peace, and Captain Marvel is because in the end he was the one in the right and he sacrificed himself because of it.

Also, while it turned out it wasn't so, for most of the story, Batman takes up a Judas archtype, with one of the "Apoclles," the super-men, betraying Superman and the other metas to the "Roman Empire," Lex Luthor and his MLF.

There are probably a lot more, but I'm not that well-read on the Bible, so I wouldn't know.

 

[Speedball]

did you read V for Vendetta? that would have been a good one. that, or Superman: Secret Identity.

 

[Speedball]

Or maybe Batman: Year one or pretty much every single Frank Miller Graphic novel ever made.

 

[Elijya]

Lke maybe the Dark Knight Strikes Again? yeah, I don't think so....