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Iron Man 3 All Hail the King

Then aren't we just getting Aldrich Killian Part Deux?

Its tricky due to some identical superficialities, but that interpretation is still doable I think. The idea of the real Mandarin getting his hands on Extremis and wanting to unleash it as a virus that would kill the vast majority of the human population in an attempt to improve it is a different enough goal from what Killian was trying to do in IM3 for it to work.

But I agree with what you said in an earlier post about revisiting the Mandarin as soon as IM4 may be too redundant. I've said myself in the IM sequel forums that it may not be a bad idea to wait a movie or two before doing that. FWIW, I'd like to see Count Nefaria and Madame Masque.
 
Its tricky due to some identical superficialities, but that interpretation is still doable I think. The idea of the real Mandarin getting his hands on Extremis and wanting to unleash it as a virus that would kill the vast majority of the human population in an attempt to improve it is a different enough goal from what Killian was trying to do in IM3 for it to work.

But I agree with what you said in an earlier post about revisiting the Mandarin as soon as IM4 may be too redundant. I've said myself in the IM sequel forums that it may not be a bad idea to wait a movie or two before doing that. FWIW, I'd like to see Count Nefaria and Madame Masque.

Well, it's a different scheme, sure, but I was talking about the characterization. Like, given the right push, I could totally see Aldrich Killian doing that.

At the end of the day, I think Killian was a great adaptation of The Mandarin and I think it's best if they leave it with him. As it stands, the one shot serves to appease the folks who disliked Killian and can easily be ignored by Killian's fans. Going further with it, I'm not sure that'd work out. And if they ever did, I agree, it should happen several films from now.

Even though it isn't likely, if we ever revisit The Mandarin I'd much prefer that they reveal Killian to have survived the end of IM3 and is now in a SHIELD holding cell somewhere, and after he escapes and rebuilds AIM/Ten Rings, he dives further into the Mandarin persona, actually adopting some of Trevor's costume in his day-to-day dress and getting even more grand and one the top in his schemes, perhaps even doing the Extremis thing you mentioned.

That would be revisiting The Mandarin in a much more streamlined and less goofy way that doesn't completely miss the point of Iron Man 3 and that I also would love because I just think Killian is the best version of the character I've ever seen.
 
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Well, it's a different scheme, sure, but I was talking about the characterization. Like, given the right push, I could totally see Aldrich Killian doing that.

At the end of the day, I think Killian was a great adaptation of The Mandarin and I think it's best if they leave it with him. As it stands, the one shot serves to appease the folks who disliked Killian and can easily be ignored by Killian's fans. Going further with it, I'm not sure that'd work out. And if they ever did, I agree, it should happen several films from now.

Even though it isn't likely, if we ever revisit The Mandarin I'd much prefer that they reveal Killian to have survived the end of IM3 and is now in a SHIELD holding cell somewhere, and after he escapes and rebuilds AIM/Ten Rings, he dives further into the Mandarin persona, actually adopting some of Trevor's costume in his day-to-day dress and getting even more grand and one the top in his schemes, perhaps even doing the Extremis thing you mentioned.

That would be revisiting The Mandarin in a much more streamlined and less goofy way that doesn't completely miss the point of Iron Man 3 and that I also would love because I just think Killian is the best version of the character I've ever seen.

Prior to the one-shot, I was actually thinking/wanted the same thing.
 
I was also imagining that, despite his healing factor, the beating he took at the end of IM3 leaves him looking super ****ed, like all covered in scars and blackened tissue and constantly glowing orange with Extremis, so the robe would be in part to cover up when he needs to, at least at first.

And heck, at that point you could even have the special rings come into play. Like, the rings could be tiny weapons that he powers with his Extremis bio-chemistry.

Or they can just be decorative and he simply breaths fire on people. I can go either way, really.
 
The Mandarin in Iron Man 3 was The Mandarin. Same MO, same personality, and he hit all of the key narrative beats. They changed a few surface details, but the character was intact. And he was absolutely a more faithful adaptation than the immortal sorcerer that the "real" Mandarin is implied to be. The Mandarin is not and has never been a centuries old sorcerer who has led a secret cabal of terrorists down through the ages. That's Ra's Al Ghul. The Mandarin, like Aldrich Killian, was a spoiled and resentful prodigy who stole power that did not belong to him and that he did nothing to earn in order to build and empire of wealth and crime and reinvent himself as an ubermensch. Those are the defining characteristics of who The Mandarin is as a person. Everything else is just fluff.

And there's nothing a more traditionally orientalist Mandarin could bring to the table that Aldrich Killian couldn't. International network of spies and terrorist? Check. The ability to kung fu fight a dude in powered armor with just his bare hands? Check. The grand vision necessary to bring entire nations to their knees? Check. I don't see how the character was lacking in any way in that film.

THANK YOU! This guy gets it. The Mandarin is not Marvel's Ra's Al Ghul, he's more like Black Mask blended with some ubermensche warrior type like Deathstroke, Bane, or whatever. Imagine if Black Mask had squandered his fortune turning himself into a Deathstroke or Bane type, instead of spending it willy-nilly, and that's The Mandarin. And that's also movie Killian.
 
No it wasn't. The Ten Rings was a terrorist organization in Iron Man 1. Either Aldrich Killian founded it, or he appropriated their iconography and took over the remnants of it after the organization was crippled as a result of Iron Man attacking them and Obidiah Stane murdering their leadership. What's incongruous about that?

Well he definitely did not found it, that was my point in what you replied to before. I personally like to think that after IM crippled them they regrouped and decided to work underground rather then having been completely eradicated and thus is why I figure there could be more to be explored.

Yes. And? How is that incongruous with what we got in Iron Man 3?

I would have liked a scene that acknowledged Tony's prior experience with the 10 Rings, as it was presented in the movie it was like he was discovering them for the first time whereas he should have been freaked that the catalyst to his becoming Iron Man was back.

Are you talking about the established continuity of the films, or the established continuity of the comics? Because I really don't see how he played fast and loose with the established continuity of the films. Nothing in his film contradicts anything that was established in the previous films.

And what characters did he throw in that were unrelated to their comic book counterparts? I mean, yeah, the movie Aldrich Killian isn't anything like the comic Aldrich Killian, but that's because he was actually intended to be an adaptation of The Mandarin with misdirection thrown over the whole affair.

What need was there for him to use Ellen Brandt, Jack Taggert and Eric Savin?
And I feel that everyone treating the 10 Rings as a new entity, or seemingly so, did mess with the established continuity that the 10 Rings was basically what help bring about the Iron Man persona.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. "if Killian had anything to do with the first iteration then he'd of gotten involved before Tony even became Iron Man and we wouldn't have had much of a franchise." What does that mean, exactly?

The movie was pretty clear about why Killian got personally involved and started making public spectacles when he did. The public bombings and the theatrical terrorist threat videos were a very intentional and somewhat necessary response to the heightened climate of panic after the battle of New York. He was happy to stay in the shadows until that happened and forced him to up his game, he said that explicitly. The film was also very clear that Killian had no interest in Tony Stark and only went after him when Stark challenged him publicly and now posed a potential threat to his operation. So, if you were to look at Iron Man 3 pre-AHTK and interpret Killian as having founded the Ten Rings in the first place, then he would have had no reason to do anything he did in Iron Man 3 until the events of those movies. If you were to interpret Killian as having co-opted and taken control of a pre-existing organization that was unrelated to him, as AHTK stipulates, then same thing.

Exactly, AHTK is canon and helps clears things up on that level.
I was saying that if AHTK didn't exist we would have to presume that Killian was involved since the beginning which wouldn't have made much sense because why wouldn't he have know it was Stark he was capturing, and why wouldn't he have killed him then and there?

It's pretty clearly a cookie intended for fans. It was something they admit to have made up pretty much on the fly during IM3's post production that wasn't even hinted at in the film, was introduced in a tucked away little corner of the MCU that likely only the hard core fans saw, and happened immediately after a controversial **** storm over how Shane Black chose to adapt The Mandarin in the MCU.

Does it expand the MCU? Sure it does. But it does so in a convoluted, retcon-y way, and that's not good writing. IM3 established The Mandarin as a threat in the world and established that Killian invented the identity of The Mandarin in order to manipulate the fears of white middle class America. Saying that there was a "real" Mandarin this whole time reeks of a hasty retcon. The Mandarin we got in Iron Man 3 was, in my opinion, the best possible adaptation of the character we could ever hope for. Re-adapting the character is lazy, it's needlessly convoluted, and it would come off as hella silly, especially since an Iron Man 4 with the "real" Mandarin would likely have trailers that would look almost identical to the IM3 trailers.

And, in my opinion, it could only be inferior to Iron Man 3. IM3 took what worked about The Mandarin while also taking what didn't work about the character and turning it into a strength. You don't get much better than that.



The Mandarin in Iron Man 3 was The Mandarin. Same MO, same personality, and he hit all of the key narrative beats. They changed a few surface details, but the character was intact. And he was absolutely a more faithful adaptation than the immortal sorcerer that the "real" Mandarin is implied to be. The Mandarin is not and has never been a centuries old sorcerer who has led a secret cabal of terrorists down through the ages. That's Ra's Al Ghul. The Mandarin, like Aldrich Killian, was a spoiled and resentful prodigy who stole power that did not belong to him and that he did nothing to earn in order to build and empire of wealth and crime and reinvent himself as an ubermensch. Those are the defining characteristics of who The Mandarin is as a person. Everything else is just fluff.

And there's nothing a more traditionally orientalist Mandarin could bring to the table that Aldrich Killian couldn't. International network of spies and terrorist? Check. The ability to kung fu fight a dude in powered armor with just his bare hands? Check. The grand vision necessary to bring entire nations to their knees? Check. I don't see how the character was lacking in any way in that film. All they did was take the more troubling aspects of the character and turn them around into some nice social commentary that added new layers to the character.

The only difference between Killian and a more traditional Mandarin is that the later would be more of a Chines stereotype. I'm not sure how that makes him a better villain.

Also, the only great Marvel villains tied up with the FF are Doom and Galactus, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there.

Wouldn't have to be as early as IM4, Marvel Studios plants seeds years, decades in advance, just look at Thanos. Totally can respect your opinion and I'm not at all a hater of IM3, I loved it.
I am just not opposed to an exploration of a traditional Mandarin if it can be done in an intelligence manner.

Hey now, how can you forget King Blastaar :woot:!
Plus they have a good deal more cosmic folk like Annihilus et cetera.
 
Well he definitely did not found it, that was my point in what you replied to before. I personally like to think that after IM crippled them they regrouped and decided to work underground rather then having been completely eradicated and thus is why I figure there could be more to be explored.

Okay.

I would have liked a scene that acknowledged Tony's prior experience with the 10 Rings, as it was presented in the movie it was like he was discovering them for the first time whereas he should have been freaked that the catalyst to his becoming Iron Man was back.

I kind of agree. I did think it was a little weird that Tony never mentioned his past run-in with them. Didn't hurt the movie in of itself, but it seemed like he would have brought it up. Since the movie works wether he brings it up or not, that dialogue may have come up in a deleted scene or an earlier draft of the script that was cut for time. Or not, I don't know.

What need was there for him to use Ellen Brandt, Jack Taggert and Eric Savin?

There wasn't one. But I guess he figured that he might as well use characters from the comics instead of creating new ones because he was adapting a comic book.

And, like, I can't speak for Taggert because that was basically just an easter egg, but Brandt and Savin seemed pretty faithfully adapted to me. I mean, yeah, their origin story was different, but their personalities were pretty much intact.

And I feel that everyone treating the 10 Rings as a new entity, or seemingly so, did mess with the established continuity that the 10 Rings was basically what help bring about the Iron Man persona.

They didn't so much treat them as new, they just forgot to mention Tony's personal run ins with them. The movie establishes them as having been a thing for a while since before the film started.

Exactly, AHTK is canon and helps clears things up on that level.
I was saying that if AHTK didn't exist we would have to presume that Killian was involved since the beginning which wouldn't have made much sense because why wouldn't he have know it was Stark he was capturing, and why wouldn't he have killed him then and there?

1: If AHTK didn't exist, we would't have to presume that Killian was involved since the beginning. There was a pretty clear theme in the film of misdirection and appropriation of ideas and imagery. Based on Iron Man 3 alone, one could easily interpret Killian's relationship with the Ten Rings to be that he came along after they were decimated and cherry picked the stuff he liked for his own evil scheme. You don't need AHTK to interpret it that way.

2: If Killian did found the Ten Rings, there's nothing about that which didn't make sense. He wouldn't have killed Stark way back in Iron Man 1 because killing Tony Stark was never one of his goals until it became a practical concern. Killian flat out tells Tony that nothing about his plan was ever about getting revenge, and he only tried to kill Tony because Tony got in the way of his plans.

Way back in Iron Man 1, that particular Ten Rings cell was hired by Stane to kidnap and kill Tony, and then Raza realized that it was Tony Stark and he would be more useful to them if they kept him alive and forced him to design weapons for them. If Killian was behind the Ten Rings right from the beginning, then either he was unaware of Raza's initiative there, or Raza ran it past him (likely through an intermediary what with Killian's secret identity and all), and Killian said "Oh yeah, he's way more useful to us alive. Keep him around, totally."

Makes perfect sense to me.

Wouldn't have to be as early as IM4, Marvel Studios plants seeds years, decades in advance, just look at Thanos. Totally can respect your opinion and I'm not at all a hater of IM3, I loved it.
I am just not opposed to an exploration of a traditional Mandarin if it can be done in an intelligence manner.

I think a convoluted retcon is an inherently unintelligent manner.

Also, I really don't see what a "traditional" Mandarin brings to the table. A traditional Mandarin is exactly like Killian, except also an offensive Chines stereotype. That's hardly Thanos calibre villainy.

Hey now, how can you forget King Blastaar :woot:!
Plus they have a good deal more cosmic folk like Annihilus et cetera.

1: Who do they have besides Annihilus?

2: Eh, Annihilus kind of sucks. Like, Annihilation Wave was a good storyline, but Annihilus is kind of a boring and crappy villain. Basically any genocidal nutjob could fill that role, and there are a ton of "cosmic" villains who aren't associated with the Fantastic Four.
 
Yeah, there's no way that they could POSSIBLY do the Mandarin as a Chinese guy without him being racist. There is no way that this could ever be done. Nope, better just to leave him as "generic evil rival scientist/businessman #23" just like we've gotten in EVERY ONE of these movies. WOW, talk about a lack of creativity/imagination.
 
Yeah, there's no way that they could POSSIBLY do the Mandarin as a Chinese guy without him being racist. There is no way that this could ever be done. WOW, talk about a lack of creativity/imagination.

1: It's not as easy as you imply. There's a lot of yellow peril cultural baggage attached to the character. I mean, the name alone is kind of iffy. And most of the character's "defining" characteristics that people were pissed about not being in Iron Man 3 are pretty darn racist.

2: Wouldn't doing The Mandarin as a Chines guy but stripping away all of the overtly racist elements just be Aldrich Killian part duex? Because Killian was basically The Mandarin stripped of all of the racist elements.
 
Heck, the comics Mandarin isn't ethnically Chinese. He's half British, half ethnic Mongol.

Here's a couple of examples of how he probably would really look if he existed:

crixus_le_champion.jpg


jason-momoa-reported-to-be-playing-aquaman-in-batman-vs-superman-dawn-of-justice-164350-a-1402752912-470-75.jpg


Know any Chinese actors who look like that?
 
Heck, the comics Mandarin isn't ethnically Chinese. He's half British, half ethnic Mongol.

Here's a couple of examples of how he probably would really look if he existed:

crixus_le_champion.jpg


jason-momoa-reported-to-be-playing-aquaman-in-batman-vs-superman-dawn-of-justice-164350-a-1402752912-470-75.jpg


Know any Chinese actors who look like that?

Jason Momoa isn't Mongolian, he's Native Hawaiian.
 
The point is they are half white, half asian racially, in addition to having that barbarous look the Mandarin is often given.

530611-ma1.jpg
 
The point is they are half white, half asian racially, in addition to having that barbarous look the Mandarin is often given.

530611-ma1.jpg

I'm not sure if Native Hawaiians are considered or consider themselves to be Asian.

Also, that Manadrin costume is horrible.
 
They are listed together on censuses("Asian/Pacific Islander") and the like, because racially they are the same. Sure, there's little differences on average, just as there are little differences on average between english and russian and so forth, but not to the point of being a different race.
 
Who thinks we see Mandarin in AoU? Bet it's gonna be Trevor.
 
Who thinks we see Mandarin in AoU? Bet it's gonna be Trevor.

Trevor being the Mandarin all along (Him orchestrating his own prison break with his own henchman being unaware would be awesome) + Harley being a PTSD-induced hallucination (akin to Simmons in AOS) = wish fulfillment.
 
I don't like All Hail the King. The description sounds more like Ra's Al Ghul than The Mandarin.
 
We need the real Mandarin in the MCU. Killian was not that, We are waiting.
 
I don't like All Hail the King. The description sounds more like Ra's Al Ghul than The Mandarin.

If you watched it you'd see Trevor is nothing like Ra's haha. Neither is the real Mandarin by the sounds of him. Who I hope we get to see one day soon in the MCU.
 
When it looks like Ten Rings is back
Rod Hallett's character has a Ten Rings tattoo on his neck and is at the launch Pym Technologies launch of the Yellowjacket suit in Ant-Man
 
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Yeah, there's no way that they could POSSIBLY do the Mandarin as a Chinese guy without him being racist. There is no way that this could ever be done. Nope, better just to leave him as "generic evil rival scientist/businessman #23" just like we've gotten in EVERY ONE of these movies. WOW, talk about a lack of creativity/imagination.


Literally all you have to do is look to Chinese movies with pretty similar characters to see what would be considered OK.
 
If you watched it you'd see Trevor is nothing like Ra's haha. Neither is the real Mandarin by the sounds of him. Who I hope we get to see one day soon in the MCU.

I'm not talking about Trevor, I'm talking about the description of the supposed real Mandarin, i.e. an ancient mysterious figure from the middle-ages. The Mandarin is an aristocrat who would have been in his thirties going by his backstory, back when the story was first published in the early sixties. If the whole sliding timescale applies to him, he's still in his mid-thirties. If he's one of those guys like Magneto who don't get Sliding-Timescaled, then he's ninety-something. Under no circumstances is he from the middle-ages. That's Ra's Al Ghul.
 

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