Ant-Man: Who's Your Favourite?

[BLACKVULCAN]

Wow! for me I hated that whole Dr.Pym /Dr.Who get up with the scarf and hat and all that. I remembered waaaaaay back in the day when i was a kid.Homeboy was all distraught about not being much of a man( this is classic universe stuff)That it was easy for Ultron to captured him. Ultron then brainwashed him to put the Wasp's life essence into a bride for him "Jocasta."Which again was someone else for the Avengers to fight.Some twisted Oedipus complex that Ultie had going on at the time. But Luckly the Black Panther(my hero) put the beat down on him.That was some really pathetic stuff going on with Pym.Thats just a long list of probs that Homeboy Pym had. Yeah Scott was a thief, but he stole Pym's suit to help his daughter Cassie/Stature out when she was sick. Hell! you think Pym would have locked that stuff up somewhere really good in the 1st place. That's another mess up he had. Plus Scott died in the line of work when Jack of hearts blew his ass up. So that's why I'm all about Scott, but that's just me.yay!

 

[BLACKVULCAN]

Oops! Double posted hope that's not against the rules!Hope that doesnt get me banished. I gotta get the rules down and all. hehe.

But i wanted to mention that also while a foe was giving up back in the day too. think her name was the Elf queen or something like that.( one of those throw away villains) Homeboy Pym shot baby girl in the back as YellowJacket as she was surrendering. Which was totally unsportsmanlike and not very heroic. Later he went on to be used AGAIN!(like that was a new thing) by Egghead( another Villain) to steal Adamantium for him which the Avengers stopped. Ultimately he started to suck as a hero that he created another robot with a kill switch out of Adamantium for the Avengers to fight. Hoping they would see him as a hero. Unfortunately The robot got the best of him and the other Avengers had to beat it. This eventually lead to homeboy getting thrown out of the Avengers waaaaay before Warbird/ Ms Marvel ever did for drinking. I know we all have our favorites, but Man! I would take G'nort the Green Lantern as a hero over this cat any day.

 

[Anubis]

Was he crazy YJ at the time? Cuz anything done while insane doesn't really count.

 

[BLACKVULCAN]

Search me.i thought dude was always crazy!t:

 

[Kitsune]

I like O'Grady's costume best.... but I'm not sure on personality.. I perfer Hank Pymp as Yellow Jacket or no costumed ID at all....

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Was he crazy YJ at the time? Cuz anything done while insane doesn't really count.

Anything done under the control of others doesn't really count either, does it? Or are we now claiming Superman is a terrible character for getting mind-controlled by Max Lord, Xavier is a terrible character for becoming corrupted and turning into Onslaught, Spider-Man is a terrible character for being mind-controlled by the Jackal into trying to kill his own wife, etc. The list goes on and on and on and on and on.

 

[Anubis]

Nah, just the first time he became Yellow Jacket.

 

[Kitsune]

Nah, just the first time he became Yellow Jacket.

Wasn't he affected by chemicals that made him think he was a different person?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, the chemicals were sort of a catalyst for his personality change, but he had an inferiority complex for a while before that. He switched from Ant-Man to Giant-Man, in fact, because he felt his Ant-Man powers didn't measure up to the likes of Iron Man's or Thor's. Of course, it didn't help that Jan was a ditzy b**** who flirted with everything in sight back then, either.

 

[BLACKVULCAN]

Anything done under the control of others doesn't really count either, does it?

Well then what counts. i mean thats a big problem with comics.not to get into a big philosophically debate cause it's Antman, but that's a problem with people who have being reading comics for awhile. Anything can be retcon away or explain as being under the control of others. So what counts and what doesn't? everything home boy did before YJ? Right now it might have been a S***** who did it all.( u know rhymes with mull, hope i dont give away anything. For me everything counts even if you were controlled by others or not. I dont like this oh we can just sweep this away under the rug stuff. Superman when he killed the three phantom zoners and became Gangbuster had to deal with that fact, but again thats just my 2 cents I'm just the new guy.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

These weren't retcons, these were things that were there at the time the developments occurred. Hank didn't just hit Jan for the hell of it and then some apologist came by later to say, "Oh yeah, he was uh... crazy at the time!" He was doused with chemical gases from an experiment gone wrong, had a split personality, was publicly disgraced, had a total mental breakdown, and lashed out at his wife physically while in that state. It counted, yes, because the insanity was just a magnification of his own neuroses, but nothing was "swept under the rug." The 30 years of attempting to make up for that bout of insanity afterward counts, too. Superman's got nothing on Pym in the field of dealing with repercussions for earlier mistakes. Certain people just selectively decide not to count that latter part and characterize Pym as this monstrous bastard when he's just a tragically flawed human being. You can go with the absolutist notion that hitting his wife once and getting mind-controlled or manipulated a handful of times makes him the most god-awful character in creation, but personally I think it enriches him because people have dealt with it over the years instead of ignoring it.

And while I'm ranting, what the hell does Pym have to do with Doctor Who?

 

[BLACKVULCAN]

Hey corp. is it it okay that i called you corp? no disrespect.
All i am saying is that in which Antman you prefer. I like Scott, Yeah i do think Pym is a god awful, nasty batsich, (i think thats how Lobo calls it), SOB not cause he hit babe, but for other reasons than just that, which i read as kid, but thats me.I could care less who they pick to star in a movie. especially since my views don't count for anything.Also i think I'm going to bypass a movie if they make one of dude anyways.All i was saying was what count and what doesn't.That's all.Everybody has different views.
Hope we are cool cause i am just here to state my opinion and split(even if it does smell like S***. i read where Anubis posted that and thought it was funny) no arguments! As along as we both like comics thats the important thing.

Oh and the "Dr. who" thing was when Pym remarked in the comic when he changed to shrinking things and had the same kind of scarf and brim that Dr.who had on long time ago. He outfit was identical to Dr. who's at the time That's was where that came from.
Peace

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It's nothing personal against you, I just hate that perception of Pym that's stuck on his faults when, really, every hero has faults and every hero tries to better himself by acknowledging those faults and making up for them. People excuse all kinds of crap for other heroes, but for some reason Pym gets pigeonholed as the a**hole to end all a**holes when that a**hole period was just one very small part of the character's history. I didn't mean to come off like I was pissed at you specifically or anything. Sorry if that was misinterpreted.

I don't remember Pym wearing a scarf at all. I remember him wearing a purple jacket and purple pants with pockets that he kept all kinds of shrunken equipment in. Maybe I missed the scarf.

 

[The Question]

These weren't retcons, these were things that were there at the time the developments occurred. Hank didn't just hit Jan for the hell of it and then some apologist came by later to say, "Oh yeah, he was uh... crazy at the time!" He was doused with chemical gases from an experiment gone wrong, had a split personality, was publicly disgraced, had a total mental breakdown, and lashed out at his wife physically while in that state. It counted, yes, because the insanity was just a magnification of his own neuroses, but nothing was "swept under the rug." The 30 years of attempting to make up for that bout of insanity afterward counts, too. Superman's got nothing on Pym in the field of dealing with repercussions for earlier mistakes. Certain people just selectively decide not to count that latter part and characterize Pym as this monstrous bastard when he's just a tragically flawed human being. You can go with the absolutist notion that hitting his wife once and getting mind-controlled or manipulated a handful of times makes him the most god-awful character in creation, but personally I think it enriches him because people have dealt with it over the years instead of ignoring it.

Besides, harping on the negative aspects of Hank's character arc like that also seems to involve completely ignoring the shortcomings of his fellow Avengers. Even though he's a completely different character now, I'm pretty sure most of Thor's violent oafish behavior from the myths is still cannon. Hawkeye started out wanting to do good but let a pretty face and a nice rack convince him to commit acts of treason. The Vision tried to take over the world once. Wanda and Pietro were terrorists. Tony's alcoholism, The Hulk's being The Hulk. The only member of The Avengers I can think of who has a pretty clean record is Cap, and he still has his moments of going irrational revenge happy whenever a member of the Zemo family shows up.

 

[BLACKVULCAN]

yeah that scarf thing was only around for a bit. Haha he had the suit and all. Like i said too I dug Him as YellowJacket. One of my favorite books is him with Spider-Man in Marvel- team up fighting some cat name Equinox. I thought he was cool as hell.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Hmm, I haven't seen that. I should check for it.

Besides, harping on the negative aspects of Hank's character arc like that also seems to involve completely ignoring the shortcomings of his fellow Avengers. Even though he's a completely different character now, I'm pretty sure most of Thor's violent oafish behavior from the myths is still cannon. Hawkeye started out wanting to do good but let a pretty face and a nice rack convince him to commit acts of treason. The Vision tried to take over the world once. Wanda and Pietro were terrorists. Tony's alcoholism, The Hulk's being The Hulk. The only member of The Avengers I can think of who has a pretty clean record is Cap, and he still has his moments of going irrational revenge happy whenever a member of the Zemo family shows up.

Exactly.

 

[Muze]

Scott was a better hero and father than Pym was. Eric is better at being a creep; more consistently entertaining. far as i'm concerned, Hank should never put on a costume again. he just sucks at being a hero. even the skrull impersonator proved to be more interesting. my vote goes to Eric O'Grady since Scott is deceased.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Hank... doesn't have any kids...

 

[The Question]

Hank... doesn't have any kids...

Unless you count Ultron. And in that case, your kid turning out to be a mass murdering militant Darwinist with an Oedipal Complex wouldn't exactly make you a nominee for father of the year.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, I shouldn't speak too soon. I know Hank was married to someone before Jan, and I'm not sure if he had a kid with her or something. I'm pretty hazy on the very beginning of Hank's career.

I wouldn't call Ultron his kid, either. He built Ultron, but Ultron was basically a fully formed intelligence within no time at all, and it came to its own conclusions about humanity and its own superiority. Hank didn't really "parent" it at all.

 

[Muze]

Hank... doesn't have any kids...

that's because he was too busy beating Jan. but, if you want to go by MC-2 continuity, both of his two biological children turned out to be super-villains.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh, okay. That's what we're doing. Never mind, then.

 

[Aristotle]

I voted O'Grady because I just despise Pym and always have, and the other guy I don't know much about. Also, O'Grady's really funny, and is the only character to have made me care about the Ant-Man name. Tragically, I didn't catch on to his book until it had already been cancelled. I was picking up back issues just as the final issue came out.

 

[Aristotle]

Even though he's a completely different character now, I'm pretty sure most of Thor's violent oafish behavior from the myths is still cannon.

The degree to which previously existing mythology is still canon in both the DCU and the MU is debatable. Marvel, for example, has wholesale retconned certain aspects of the stories of Hercules and Ares to make them more heroic, and the characterizations of most mythological characters in the DCU and MU conflict wildly with who they were as myths.

Hawkeye started out wanting to do good but let a pretty face and a nice rack convince him to commit acts of treason.

I got no problem with treason. Admittedly, I don't know exactly what you're referring to here, but in general, the word "treason" is neutral to me. Some treason is good. Some treason is bad.

The Vision tried to take over the world once.

But see, that's the thing about comics. Every good guy gets one freebie evil-villain phase. Comes with the territory. Totally forgivable, because of the cosmic-level powers and threats that these guys have to deal with. But Hank was just a wife-beating *****ebag.

Wanda and Pietro were terrorists.

First of all, they're both crazy. Second of all, terrorism is like treason; the goodness or evilness of it is in the eye of the beholder. I can point to quite a few "terrorists" whose motivations, at the very least, I agree with. There have even been terrorists in history whose actions I agree with. For example, the action of the American colonists during the revolution are commendable (although their motivations were ridiculous.) Third and finally, they were raised by a psychotic evil supervillain. What do you expect?

Tony's alcoholism

Since when did alcoholism descend to being on the same moral level as beating the **** out of your wife?

The Hulk's being The Hulk.

Which is entirely out of his control.

The only member of The Avengers I can think of who has a pretty clean record is Cap, and he still has his moments of going irrational revenge happy whenever a member of the Zemo family shows up.

First, Zemo was a Nazi. Second, I don't see how distrusting "reformed" Nazi psychos is anywhere near as bad as wife-beating.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I assume you hate Spider-Man just as much for being a wifebeating *****ebag too, then.

Ages of Thunder and Reign of Blood have effectively made Thor as violent as any of his myths would indicate. Like, breaking-giants'-heads-open-with-Mjolnir violent. And it's made all of the Asgardians huge a**holes, at least in ancient times, too.