Anyone else ticked that all their favourite Marvel characters are getting replaced?

[raimar]

Therefore your initial claim that "comics are overflowing with positive male characters" falls under the category of "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence". I tried to give you some objective measurement criteria to start an actual discussion around this claim, and proposed a few tests that are common problems to nearly every story, yet you choose to completely ignore them and call them "arbitrary". That's the internet equivalent of plugging your ears and yelling "lalala I can't hear you!".

It almost seems as if some of the SJW"s around here are desperately trying to convince themselves of being so. It does not matter what you show them, they, at the same time admit these new characters would not flourish on their own, are pushed by an agenda of "diversity", confuse this with creativity and expect everyone to like it and go along, while at the same time critizicing those who do not. THis is the longest i have attempted to post in years, really waisting time. Cheers, and hopes for a trully diverse comic book universe.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Anyone else ticked that all their favourite Marvel characters are getting replaced?:

this is the title. I am not talking about Green Arrow or Mosaic. Stick to the question in question and you may understand me. I read all the way up to AvX, which is quite recent. I stopped at Thorwoman because of the things that have been remarked here, by me and many others. We don't have to like this. And there is room for opinions but it is certainly difficult to argue this is all a natural progression. Falcon Cap is very different. Jane, Riri, WOlverine? Are you serious? Imagine the creation of those female characters along side the male existing ones and then the males mentoring those females, (whom would have differing names of course). Now imagine the barrage of crap coming from all isle of the polically correct spectrum for, you know, implying that it implies the females could'nt do without, etc.,etc... You know the rest. It would be never ending. Now, instead, it is perfectly fine to just take the character over, no problem with that. You know, why build a character, engage the public and make it wanted, expected reading? I simply don't agree. Which, of course, means nothing.

I brought up Green Arrow because you kept bringing up politics in comics like it was some crime that only began in current books.

Also, you do realize that X-23 was mentored by Logan, right?

 

[Havok83]

X-23 existed for over a decade before she took over the mantle of Wolverine. She is very well established as her own character and this wasn't done for diversity's sake or some attempt to try and make her work as a character bc she already does. It was very much a natural progression of her own characterization and something they took advantage of since he is dead. Her current status is an homage to the original. It wasn't done as a replacement like femThor or new Iron Man. I liken it to what was done with Captain Marvel although I acknowledge that the mantle was left vacant for far longer

 

[RoryTate]

Cool! You must really like how Marvel is currently standing up for the vision of creators like Jason Aaron, even though some people are (hilariously) offended by concepts like that of Jane Foster's Thor. Glad to see that's not pandering, by your definition.

Wow, how did I miss replying to this claim? Criticism of something is not necessarily a call to censor that thing (nor is simple criticism equivalent to "taking offense at something" as you term it), though if that were indeed the case, then yes, I would celebrate them standing up for Aaron's vision. However, I am confident that was not what happened in that instance. Censorship is a fairly overused accusation, and often doesn't fit what is more commonly termed "consumer feedback". Apologies for the wall of text in advance, and I'll try to be as succinct as possible.

Censorship requires:

1. The scope of the criticism must be very broad and wide, and does not limit itself to one work/image/etc.
2. The criticism is completely destructive (as in the creation must be destroyed or should not exist) rather than constructive.
3. The person giving the criticism claims to speak for a larger group of people, and not just for themselves. A good example of this is the phrase "Come on! It's $CURRENT_YEAR!!", which attempts to invoke wider social mores.

These are some fairly good tests for spotting attempts to censor, although there are more that could probably be listed, and many things that I would not consider censorship that might meet one of these criteria.

Let's try an example. Say there is a comic of Captain Marvel, where she is written as powerful and is always kicking ass, and shown as being respected for her bravery, etc. Then a "beach arc" happens where it's all about her being in a bikini...for several issues. The fans of the comic start complaining, and say they don't want to buy it. Considering the litmus test above, that is not an attempt to censor. It's just customer feedback. And I would honestly join in with my own complaints in this case, despite having no problems with other stories that might be nothing but endless beach episodes. As long as the fans aren't saying drawing women in bikinis should be banned everywhere, the scope of the criticism is limited. As long as the criticism is constructive, like "don't write her as a ditzy airhead who cares only about her tanlines, because it makes it impossible to see her as respected and powerful", it's not an attempt to censor. And as long as it stays limited to individual fans giving their honest opinions on what they like and don't like, and we don't have the media practicing yellow journalism and writing thinly-disguised opinion/propaganda pieces as news articles, then it's not an attempt to censor.

Now Marvel could choose to ignore this feedback, and continue writing her this way, and I wouldn't say they were standing up for someone's creative vision. I would actually say that they were completely out of touch with their audience, and only interested in making a quick buck.

There's a lot more I could write, but I'll stop there, since I have hopefully communicated my point regarding what is censorship and what isn't. I'll leave it to the reader to contrast this with the censorship of the famous Spider-Woman cover, which passes (or fails really) all of the litmus tests above with flying colours, and where Marvel caved to attempts to censor like a cheap tent.

 

[RoryTate]

Comic books have always been political. The difference I guess is that some people like reading diverse characters less than seeing white men punch Hitler.

Yes, comics did start out as just cringe-inducing propaganda during wartime. Personally, I don't want them to return to that level of stupidity.

Oh, and good job erasing Wonder Woman fighting Nazis too.

 

[Marvel]

Most true Marvel fans have dropped so many of their books. This new era PC horsecrap Marvel tried to draw the PC generation and all they did was alienate long time fans. So glad they have to reap the results now.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/dc-comics-sales-top-marvel-in-july-thanks-to-rebirths-strong-performance

DC is #1 and I'm one Marvel fan that's glad.

I used to read around 25-30 Marvel books a month. I'm down to a hand full and think even those few are pretty bad.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Yes, comics did start out as just cringe-inducing propaganda during wartime. Personally, I don't want them to return to that level of stupidity.

Oh, and good job erasing Wonder Woman fighting Nazis too.

Green Arrow. Mike Grell.

Mike Grell. Green Arrow.

How is it that such a politically minded series managed to become one of the most critically renowned and adored by fans series of all time? Because politics in comics are evil, right?

Most true Marvel fans have dropped so many of their books. This new era PC horsecrap Marvel tried to draw the PC generation and all they did was alienate long time fans. So glad they have to reap the results now.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/dc-comics-sales-top-marvel-in-july-thanks-to-rebirths-strong-performance

DC is #1 and I'm one Marvel fan that's glad.

I used to read around 25-30 Marvel books a month. I'm down to a hand full and think even those few are pretty bad.

Because there's no way that has to do with DC's new, revitalized lineup and sales strategy, right? You keep coming in here trying to say data like this supports your views. IT DOESN'T.

Also, what are your feelings on Asian Superman? Because I saw he came in at #8....

 

[Havok83]

Most true Marvel fans have dropped so many of their books. This new era PC horsecrap Marvel tried to draw the PC generation and all they did was alienate long time fans. So glad they have to reap the results now.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/dc-comics-sales-top-marvel-in-july-thanks-to-rebirths-strong-performance

DC is #1 and I'm one Marvel fan that's glad.

I used to read around 25-30 Marvel books a month. I'm down to a hand full and think even those few are pretty bad.

People have dropped Marvel but its not bc its become too PC. For me its the crap they've done with the X-men and constant relaunches that have been the turn off

DC just had a bunch of new #1s. If tou've followed comics for a while, you'd know that those always are met with a sales bump. Its whether they can maintain those numbers 3 months out thats the true test. Marvel is about to get a bunch of #1s this fall with their book relaunches. Guess what? They will likely be leading in sales for the month as well

 

[Saint]

Wow, how did I miss replying to this claim? Criticism of something is not necessarily a call to censor that thing...

The word "censorship" appears nowhere in any of my posts, nor does it have anything to do with the statements or responses I have made. I don't know what argument you think you're responding to, but it's not any of mine. I'm out. Enjoy your conversations with scarecrows.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

i quit reading Marvel a few years ago. The universe and characters i fell in love with as a kid slowly became unrecognizable to me...i would check in from time to time to see if things ever got back to "normal", but eventually realized that was not ever going to happen. All the writers and artists i grew up with have long since retired or passed away.

Now i see it has become more unrecognizable than ever.

Couple that with a status quo changing "event" every year, and having to buy a bunch of different comics to get a complete story, and i felt it was time for me to bow out gracefully.

The landscape for being a comic collector changed drastically since the early 1970's, and im not saying it's a bad thing,i know the industry had to find some way to survive... just saying that it was personally not for me....

 

[Themanofbat]

i quit reading Marvel a few years ago. The universe and characters i fell in love with as a kid slowly became unrecognizable to me...i would check in from time to time to see if things ever got back to "normal", but eventually realized that was not ever going to happen. All the writers and artists i grew up with have long since retired or passed away.

Now i see it has become more unrecognizable than ever.

Couple that with a status quo changing "event" every year, and having to buy a bunch of different comics to get a complete story, and i felt it was time for me to bow out gracefully.

The landscape for being a comic collector changed drastically since the early 1970's, and im not saying it's a bad thing,i know the industry had to find some way to survive... just saying that it was personally not for me....

Hello Captain...

I'm in the same boat... After 40+ years of comic book buying, I've actually stopped buying all comics last year (except for the MiracleMan reprints... and I'm not even reading those)...

I'm getting more enjoyment from watching the movies, and I'm okay with that.

 

[CTFFFan]

It definitely isn't as good as it was but some books are still good. I am enjoying the Cap: Steve Rogers reboot. Looking forward to seeing where this is going. Looking forward to Unworthy Thor and Infamous Iron Man as well.

 

[RoryTate]

How is it that such a politically minded series managed to become one of the most critically renowned and adored by fans series of all time? Because politics in comics are evil, right?

There is a fairly major difference between social commentary and propaganda. Both are political, but only one of them is open to interpretation by the reader, and is much more enjoyable and -- frankly -- educational because of it (though that's a byproduct of the enjoyment and cannot be the original purpose IMO). To be honest, I don't know much about the stories and characters you reference, but I do know the X-Men fairly well. And those stories during much of their run contained great social commentary about prejudice against groups of people, and even referenced the politics associated with that (i.e. legislation such as the Mutant Affairs Control Act, which could be an analogy for many real life events). Yet, the X-Men could be read as a metaphor for racial prejudice, religious persecution, ethnic cleansing, fears of those with different sexuality, etc, or just a story about tribalism in general by the person reading it. The villains in the story could be anyone, part of any political party. The adversaries of mutants could be from any gender, race, religion, or indeed any superficial appearance you can think of.

Propaganda, on the other hand, is very clear as to who the villain is. In these highly political offerings, establishing the villain is decided by identity or group membership. Evil is a label. Calling someone "Nazi" or "Republican" (for those who understand US politics anyway) is all that is required. And granted, there are people who absolutely love stories like that. I don't begrudge them this enjoyment, but I do consider such stories lazy, uninspired, and highly unlikely to reach a wide audience as a result, even if I may actually agree with their politics.

 

[RoryTate]

The word "censorship" appears nowhere in any of my posts, nor does it have anything to do with the statements or responses I have made. I don't know what argument you think you're responding to, but it's not any of mine. I'm out. Enjoy your conversations with scarecrows.

I honestly don't think I've strawmanned any of your positions. I called Marvel out for pandering in one of my posts because they have established a clear pattern of censoring themselves. I was the one who used the term, but your response stated that the continued publication of Aaron's stories was evidence that they stood up for the original vision of creators. I don't want to repeat all my lengthy arguments against this rebuttal, but suffice it to say that I disagreed with that statement. And censorship is frankly a very nuanced and difficult subject to parse, even for those of us experienced with creating something and expressing ourselves, so labeling any attempt to reason through a working and objective definition of censorship as a "strawman" doesn't sit well with me.

 

[Mad Ones]

I see this thread is still stumbling along in all its stupidity. How many pages of complaints that white men aren't getting pandered to enough can it make it to?

 

[Marvel]

Marvel publishing has lost ALL the magic that made them great. They have become far too PC and as shallow as the worst of DC. They have given away their edge earned by years of better creative teams.

THAT is the true shame of it all. No amount of posting by those of you that are under 22 years of age and simply don't know any better can change that fact.

 

[Mad Ones]

Let's not pretend this is an issue about quality.

 

[BoredGuy]

I understand being bummed you can't read new stories with your favorite characters (I'm with ya)
and I also get thinking the quality of Marvel's books has been waning (It's true (at least the team books))

but I have to agree with Mad ones here, this thread is pretty dang cringe-worthy

 

[Motown Marvel]

Comics are sorely in need of more diversity and better representation of minority characters. Marvel is making very admirable efforts to remedy this. And I dig most of the legacy characters Marvel have presented us with so far. But it's starting to get annoying this has become their sole mode of introducing minority characters. It's starting to feel cheap and lacking creativity. And worst of all, these minority characters don't get to define their own legacy, rather they are riding on the coat tail legacies of white male characters. Hell, the majority of these minority characters will be temporary. Tony Stark will be back as Iron Man. Steve Rogers is already back as Captain America. Odinson will be back as Thor. Sure, their replacements will still be around in some capacity, but they will always be in the shadow of their white male predecessor because their introduction lacked the creativity to be their own unique character. They will merely end up being defined as "the black Captain America" or "the lady Thor".

Have good creators create good and interesting characters, bring in minority creators who have been greatly missing from creative teams. Introduce these characters in established books and build them to be interesting characters which readers grow to have interest in. Give them important roles in the universe and then finally launch their own title. Yes, this takes time and doesn't produce the immediate sales of cheaply passing to them some already established mantle. But this route has longevity and respectability and allows minority characters to build their own lasting legacy.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Hello Captain...

I'm in the same boat... After 40+ years of comic book buying, I've actually stopped buying all comics last year (except for the MiracleMan reprints... and I'm not even reading those)...

I'm getting more enjoyment from watching the movies, and I'm okay with that.

Same here, Bat.

 

[random_havoc]

Comics are sorely in need of more diversity and better representation of minority characters. Marvel is making very admirable efforts to remedy this. And I dig most of the legacy characters Marvel have presented us with so far. But it's starting to get annoying this has become their sole mode of introducing minority characters. It's starting to feel cheap and lacking creativity. And worst of all, these minority characters don't get to define their own legacy, rather they are riding on the coat tail legacies of white male characters. Hell, the majority of these minority characters will be temporary. Tony Stark will be back as Iron Man. Steve Rogers is already back as Captain America. Odinson will be back as Thor. Sure, their replacements will still be around in some capacity, but they will always be in the shadow of their white male predecessor because their introduction lacked the creativity to be their own unique character. They will merely end up being defined as "the black Captain America" or "the lady Thor".

Have good creators create good and interesting characters, bring in minority creators who have been greatly missing from creative teams. Introduce these characters in established books and build them to be interesting characters which readers grow to have interest in. Give them important roles in the universe and then finally launch their own title. Yes, this takes time and doesn't produce the immediate sales of cheaply passing to them some already established mantle. But this route has longevity and respectability and allows minority characters to build their own lasting legacy.

Yes! Exactly!

 

[Mad Ones]

DC and Marvel are not in the business of creating and promoting new characters, which is exactly why their strategies are the way they are. Their characters are iconic with legacies that drive their business. New characters taking up old mantles is the best of both worlds, I imagine they think.

 

[Motown Marvel]

DC and Marvel are not in the business of creating and promoting new characters, which is exactly why their strategies are the way they are. Their characters are iconic with legacies that drive their business. New characters taking up old mantles is the best of both worlds, I imagine they think.

DC and Marvel are in the creative industry. There is no reason why they cannot create and promote new characters while still supporting their legacy characters. Any failure to do so is a result of laziness and lack of creativity.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Marvel publishing has lost ALL the magic that made them great. They have become far too PC and as shallow as the worst of DC. They have given away their edge earned by years of better creative teams.

THAT is the true shame of it all. No amount of posting by those of you that are under 22 years of age and simply don't know any better can change that fact.

I notice you never addressed those who refuted your previous attempt at backing up your claims with "facts... Meanwhile, I'm interested to hear your theory on where all of these critically acclaimed series are coming from if Marvel no longer has any creative magic...

Comics are sorely in need of more diversity and better representation of minority characters. Marvel is making very admirable efforts to remedy this. And I dig most of the legacy characters Marvel have presented us with so far. But it's starting to get annoying this has become their sole mode of introducing minority characters. It's starting to feel cheap and lacking creativity. And worst of all, these minority characters don't get to define their own legacy, rather they are riding on the coat tail legacies of white male characters. Hell, the majority of these minority characters will be temporary. Tony Stark will be back as Iron Man. Steve Rogers is already back as Captain America. Odinson will be back as Thor. Sure, their replacements will still be around in some capacity, but they will always be in the shadow of their white male predecessor because their introduction lacked the creativity to be their own unique character. They will merely end up being defined as "the black Captain America" or "the lady Thor".

Have good creators create good and interesting characters, bring in minority creators who have been greatly missing from creative teams. Introduce these characters in established books and build them to be interesting characters which readers grow to have interest in. Give them important roles in the universe and then finally launch their own title. Yes, this takes time and doesn't produce the immediate sales of cheaply passing to them some already established mantle. But this route has longevity and respectability and allows minority characters to build their own lasting legacy.

EXACTLY. If Marvel REALLY wants to build diversity, they should be creating new characters or take an easier route of elevating existing ones. Push Blue Marvel, Puma, White Tiger, Cardiac, etc... Those are all diverse heroes with unique setups holding huge potential.

 

[Themanofbat]

DC and Marvel are in the creative industry. There is no reason why they cannot create and promote new characters while still supporting their legacy characters. Any failure to do so is a result of laziness and lack of creativity.

DC and Marvel are in the creative "print" industry.

There's your reason why...