Anyone else ticked that all their favourite Marvel characters are getting replaced?

[Mad Ones]

If I took a shot every time I read SJW in fan spaces...

Are SJWs the League of Shadows?

 

[chamber-music]

I think most comic readers feel comics should have more diversity. Marvel actually has a lot of diverse characters that they already created over the years and completely forgot about or ignore.

I'm skeptical that they genuinely want diversity and aren't just using new characters for a marketing gimmick or publicity reasons.

I notice you never addressed those who If Marvel REALLY wants to build diversity, they should be creating new characters or take an easier route of elevating existing ones. Push Blue Marvel, Puma, White Tiger, Cardiac, etc... Those are all diverse heroes with unique setups holding huge potential.

The problem is that readers don't want to pick up books about new characters that aren't legacy characters. Many comic readers say they are happy to see diversity but they would not bother picking up a original hero minority book unless it is part of a familiar franchise like Spider-Man or Thor.

It is the same as modern Hollywood's love of franchises, sequels and remakes over original movies.

I hope everyone who's been wanting more diversity at marvel is reading "Nighthawk". Because that book has been super rad. Along with "Power Man and Iron Fist".

I've been reading both.

Luke Cage, Blade, Black Panther and War Machine all had ongoing solo books at Marvel in the nineties.

So there is no trying to determine my race, gender, age etc, let me preface this post with that info. I am a white male in my early 40's and have been reading comics since the late 70's/early 80's. My mother introduced me to them to get me to read as I had little interest in "See Spot Run." They also influenced me in picking up a pencil and drawing.
I have no problem with "legacy" characters. I have no problem with minority characters. Black Panther is one of my favorites as is Power Man. Blade is another favorite character of mine. I had no issue with Captain Marvel (Monica) leading the Avengers. In fact, that was one my favorite Avengers eras. I thought Falcon becoming Captain America was a different and cool idea. I did think it was a little too soon after Bucky Cap though.
My problem with some of the legacy characters is the "Mary Sue" phenomenon. Thor is the best example of this. I have read Thor for as long as I have been reading comics. I have been through Red Norvill Thor, Thor fighting Odin's eyeball, Beta Ray Bill, all the way to current Thor. Thor being unworthy has happened before. Him losing Mjolnir has happened before. My problem with Jane Thor is she immediately picks up Mjolnir and is automatically better at using it than Thor Odinson ever was. He even said so in the book that "Mjolnir never sang like that to him" or some such nonsense. She goes toe to toe with Odin like its no big deal whereas Odinson has gotten pounded by Odin numerous times. Odinson has died countless times and Jane seems more powerful than he has ever been and I have read Thor doing some amazing stuff before.
From what I have read about Riri, she is already going to be a better Iron Man than Tony.
That is my biggest issue with some of these legacy characters. They don't struggle with learning their powers, they just strap on the armor or pick up the hammer and "boom" they are the best there ever was. That is annoying to long time readers of these characters who have watched/read them go through their trials and tribulations and new discoveries of what they can do.

The Mary Sue/Gary Sue stuff is silly. It smacks of a writer trying too hard to justify the characters existence an using the previous version as a prop for the newer version.

I don't mind Falcon Cap but I think it would be more progressive to elevate Sam as Falcon as his own hero separate from Cap. Sam dealing with the racial issue of America that comes with him taking the identity is cool but I hope he returns to his falcon identity when his done and explores what that identity means to him and the world at large removed from being Cap's partner.

 

[CaptainWagner]

This article pretty much sums up perfectly why old school Marvel fans are angry and why we are disillusioned to the point of dropping most of our Marvel titles. We've simply stopped reading the books for the first time in decades...

http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/07/07/marvel-social-justice-insanity/



"When your customers — lifelong comic fans — pick up the latest issue to find a smorgasbord of irrelevant, hectoring social and pop culture commentary, they probably won’t buy the next issue. Not because they’re sexists and racists, but because the stuff you are publishing sucks."

Yeah, quoting a known racist and sexist site like Brietbart doesn't exactly help your case...

But a good point is made in that posters who complain about the influx of legacies need to speak with their wallets and reward Marvel when they take risks on new series.

 

[raimar]

I dunno why you need to blame social justice warriors for any of this. Like I said, comics are awful when it comes to representation of minorities. It's a problem in media in general. That is something social justice warriors are fighting for, and they are absolutely right to do it. If marvel's response is to recognize the problem and want to do their part to rectify it by introducing more diversity into their line up, then that is the right thing to do. If you have a problem with how marvel is going about accomplishing that goal, then your problem is with marvel, not the social justice warriors.

So far, I really dig almost all the characters who have taken over legacy mantles. My problem is that tactic being marvel's sole route for accomplishing diversity, it's starting to feel cheap and I believe they have the creative talent to do better. But if I need to choose between a black female iron man or antiquated racist representation...i'll take black female iron man all day.

If you took anything other than that from my original post, then you should reconsider what you are agreeing with.

Also, this "REAL fan" talk is a bunch of b.s. Someone who picked up their first comic today and fell in love with Jane Foster Thor and prefers her over Odinson Thor is no less a real fan than anyone else.

In this era, it is quite ridiculous and dishonest for any grown person in the US to claim misrepresentation of minorities in just about anything. I am from a minority, (a disrespected and discredited one), have many family members that are from other minorities and non minorities. On the rare get together oportunities we have had, things like racism, minority oportunities programs, machismo, feminism, politics in general come up a lot. At age 48, i can tell you i completely disagree with you on this matter. I do have experience with this. SJW's are a necesity in many ways, but if you think that in a world were kids die of hunger every day, minority representation in comicbooks is a real problem, then quite frankly i am damn glad to be far away from you. You delude yourself into importance and transcendence you don't have and so do many SJW's. And by the way, wether you agree or not, there are real fans and ocassional readers. You put them in the same "league" and call BS as if you, again, have the absolute truth on the matter. There are many real problems out there, not having a "taino" superhero is not one of them.

 

[raimar]

You realize that you're the only one your posts makes sense to right? It's the reason everyone abandoned this thread when you took it over.

Ohh, so you don't understand Mr. Tates posts. And here i was thinking negatively about you. I am ashamed at my own prejudice, please, accept ly apologies.

 

[CaptainWagner]

In this era, it is quite ridiculous and dishonest for any grown person in the US to claim misrepresentation of minorities in just about anything. I am from a minority, (a disrespected and discredited one), have many family members that are from other minorities and non minorities. On the rare get together oportunities we have had, things like racism, minority oportunities programs, machismo, feminism, politics in general come up a lot. At age 48, i can tell you i completely disagree with you on this matter. I do have experience with this. SJW's are a necesity in many ways, but if you think that in a world were kids die of hunger every day, minority representation in comicbooks is a real problem, then quite frankly i am damn glad to be far away from you. You delude yourself into importance and transcendence you don't have and so do many SJW's. And by the way, wether you agree or not, there are real fans and ocassional readers. You put them in the same "league" and call BS as if you, again, have the absolute truth on the matter. There are many real problems out there, not having a "taino" superhero is not one of them.

This argument is so incredibly ignorant. Just because their are bigger issues in the world doesn't mean that a smaller problem isn't important and shouldn't be addressed.

 

[raimar]

This argument is so incredibly ignorant. Just because their are bigger issues in the world doesn't mean that a smaller problem isn't important and shouldn't be addressed.

Clearly this is not a real problem,why don't you address that reality? The only ignorant thing here is the ridiculous amount of PC-student politics displayed by a few who think it their duty to re shape the world in a comic book forum. Many things become obvious from your response, i won't say or i will be banned. But from out here, you and some of your PC partners seem very full of yourselves. Ignorant? I have been called worst by finer, smarter and very dangerous people.

 

[Motown Marvel]

In this era, it is quite ridiculous and dishonest for any grown person in the US to claim misrepresentation of minorities in just about anything. I am from a minority, (a disrespected and discredited one), have many family members that are from other minorities and non minorities. On the rare get together oportunities we have had, things like racism, minority oportunities programs, machismo, feminism, politics in general come up a lot. At age 48, i can tell you i completely disagree with you on this matter. I do have experience with this. SJW's are a necesity in many ways, but if you think that in a world were kids die of hunger every day, minority representation in comicbooks is a real problem, then quite frankly i am damn glad to be far away from you. You delude yourself into importance and transcendence you don't have and so do many SJW's. And by the way, wether you agree or not, there are real fans and ocassional readers. You put them in the same "league" and call BS as if you, again, have the absolute truth on the matter. There are many real problems out there, not having a "taino" superhero is not one of them.

Representation in comics is not a larger problem than starving children, but there is no reason both of these problems can't be of concern in a proportion appropriate for each individual issue. By your train of thought, if I saw you get hit by a car, I shouldn't worry about calling for emergency help because the earthquake in Italy is a more serious problem.

Fact of the matter is, the issue of representation isn't just a problem in comics. It's a very serious issue in all of media, which pretty much shapes society, and in turn affects how society views and treats minorities. You say you are a minority and this issue isn't a huge problem for you, cool. That really is great. But that doesn't mean your experiences as a minority are representative of minorities as a whole. Because as a whole, there is a very strong call from minorities for better representation in media. Comics are very popular right now, particularly with impressionable youths. If they can be exposed to respectable diversity in the media which they consume, that will offer them a better chance to have respect for the diversity they encounter in the real world.

 

[Mad Ones]

Ohh, so you don't understand Mr. Tates posts. And here i was thinking negatively about you. I am ashamed at my own prejudice, please, accept ly apologies.

Apology accepted? Honestly, your posts and RoryTate's blur together. I'm just gonna assume you were going for patronizing sarcasm.

I hope you are doing something about starving kids instead of crying about SJWs on the internet.

 

[raimar]

Apology accepted? Honestly, your posts and RoryTate's blur together. I'm just gonna assume you were going for patronizing sarcasm.

I hope you are doing something about starving kids instead of crying about SJWs on the internet.

Actually, i do, with lots of effort. I also do am very activist with local causes like forest, (the few we have left), beach and historical site conservation. I am a member of Casa Pueblo in my hometown of Adjuntas and through them we stopped, (the people of PR), the open pit mining proposed by Kenecot and Amax which would have rendered PR a wasteland. Yep, i walk the walk. You do have a point, this is far from the place to be to be "crying" about anything. But, honestly, why exactly is it that you are upset by the fact that i don't like this course of action Marvel has been taking? It is you who are upset, im just trying to explain why i feel the way i feel. And being a minority, i can not believe some of the things i hear. The real causes have been highjacked for unreal, safe space over sensitive ********, much to the chagrin of those supposedly in need. Quotas will ultimately, IMHO, change the natural course of things, not to mention the stories that might have been but where "edited" for the sake of PC crap. As a minority im appalled by this. So this is why i stopped reading/buying comics. But i have hope that editors and "high-office" will stop mingling into the stories and let them run and progress naturally. I have hopes for a (i am really going on an imagination stretch here), Vejigante that fights alongside Dr. Strange and or the Avengers and is a close enough resemblance of a local person. But it will probably never happen because of the way they are doing this stuff, (and it would probably not sell). Do you really think this mingling has no bearing in writers imagination and viewpoint and hence the resulting story?
And again, you are probably a very nice person, please don't take this to the core, let's lighten up and have some fun. And minorities will do just fine.

 

[raimar]

Representation in comics is not a larger problem than starving children, but there is no reason both of these problems can't be of concern in a proportion appropriate for each individual issue. By your train of thought, if I saw you get hit by a car, I shouldn't worry about calling for emergency help because the earthquake in Italy is a more serious problem.

Fact of the matter is, the issue of representation isn't just a problem in comics. It's a very serious issue in all of media, which pretty much shapes society, and in turn affects how society views and treats minorities. You say you are a minority and this issue isn't a huge problem for you, cool. That really is great. But that doesn't mean your experiences as a minority are representative of minorities as a whole. Because as a whole, there is a very strong call from minorities for better representation in media. Comics are very popular right now, particularly with impressionable youths. If they can be exposed to respectable diversity in the media which they consume, that will offer them a better chance to have respect for the diversity they encounter in the real world.

I agree with some of this, but you are going a bit far now, no need for drama, come on. I think the point is clear. I do disagree about the representation on media. We have plenty. But thanks for your concern.

 

[Motown Marvel]

I agree with some of this, but you are going a bit far now, no need for drama, come on. I think the point is clear. I do disagree about the representation on media. We have plenty. But thanks for your concern.

You are the one who minimized the issue of representation in comics by randomly bringing up its relationship to starving children. You don't get to take issue with dramatics.

And if you are cool with the representation of your "disrespected and discredited" minority, okay fine. That's your business and you are welcome to be content with your place. But that doesn't mean representation for minorities in the media isn't an issue, it doesn't mean people are wrong for wanting better because they deserve better than "disrespected and discredited".

 

[CaptainWagner]

Clearly this is not a real problem,why don't you address that reality? The only ignorant thing here is the ridiculous amount of PC-student politics displayed by a few who think it their duty to re shape the world in a comic book forum. Many things become obvious from your response, i won't say or i will be banned. But from out here, you and some of your PC partners seem very full of yourselves. Ignorant? I have been called worst by finer, smarter and very dangerous people.

You can't just say something isn't a "real problem" because their are worse problems. You don't ignore the bully stealing lunch money because the principal is embezzling school funds.

I'm sorry if I seem full of myself, I'm not sure where you're getting that vibe from, but you in fact all the one telling people that something they care about doesn't matter because it doesn't matter to you...

 

[Gee]

While on the subject of diverse comics/characters, Nighthawk has been canned:
http://www.cbr.com/nighthawk-team-confirms-marvel-series-cancellation/

 

[Motown Marvel]

While on the subject of diverse comics/characters, Nighthawk has been canned:
http://www.cbr.com/nighthawk-team-confirms-marvel-series-cancellation/

Dammit!!!

 

[Motown Marvel]

-double-

 

[Marvel]

This article pretty much sums up perfectly why old school Marvel fans are angry and why we are disillusioned to the point of dropping most of our Marvel titles. We've simply stopped reading the books for the first time in decades...

http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/07/07/marvel-social-justice-insanity/


“We’re seeing the worst falloff of Marvel and DC sales in the store’s 38-year history,” complained one comic book store owner in an industry forum. “Both companies are losing established readers who no longer feel that the company’s output reflects the sort of comics they enjoy.

“For the first time in store history, yesterday’s Marvel FOCs saw us ordering single digits on more than half of the line items in the Marvel section.”

Marvel’s readership is souring particularly fast. With the exception of some big-name comics whose characters have, thus far, escaped the SJW purge of anything remotely resembling a straight white male, Marvel readers are simply going elsewhere.

Marvel have radically altered their classic characters by giving in to calls for more diversity, leading to a black Spiderman and female Thor. This has effectively turned the company into a multi-billion dollar feminist zine publisher.

Here’s a newsflash for Marvel: race-baiters and gender warriors who complain endlessly about the “lack of diversity” in comic books don’t buy comic books. They’re interested in identity politics, not fun.

When your customers — lifelong comic fans — pick up the latest issue to find a smorgasbord of irrelevant, hectoring social and pop culture commentary, they probably won’t buy the next issue. Not because they’re sexists and racists, but because the stuff you are publishing sucks.

People read comic books to escape the real world, and readers have had enough of being called privileged cis white men, or misogynist MRAs, in the real world, let alone the one place they get to escape it. If you want to put these things in your comic books, go ahead, but readers are just going to stop buying them.

Marvel is stuck between appeasing gobby SJWs, making SJWs mad by appeasing them and then attempting to fix an even messier situation than just giving the blue-haired elephants a much need middle-finger. They’re not too worried now, given the success of superhero movies at the box office.

But while the company is making bank from Hollywood, hoping that audiences remain enthusiastic about increasingly desperate franchise crossovers, there’s trouble on the horizon, not just for the studio’s core intellectual property, but the creative integrity of its work, too. Serves them right.

Charlie Nash

"When your customers — lifelong comic fans — pick up the latest issue to find a smorgasbord of irrelevant, hectoring social and pop culture commentary, they probably won’t buy the next issue. Not because they’re sexists and racists, but because the stuff you are publishing sucks."

It really is baffling to me. They must think it's "growing pains" as a few at the top want to go "full liberal" and move in to indoctrinate mode. They figure the core old school fans are growing older so forget them and let's try and get an ignorant youth readership that's used to this pandering. That is a TERRIBLE managerial decision.

Fans like me went from around 30 Marvel books a month to now about 5 and even those 5 are floundering.

One of the few titles I'm still reading is Daredevil and even that has some PC taint. His new sidekick is a character called Blindspot. Matt is mentoring a Latin ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT... Marvel's "rule of law guy" isn't helping him on a path to legal citizenship or anything but allowing him to run around as an illegal punching people and fighting crime. Love them creating new minority characters like this but at the same time thumbing their noses at established character traits.

 

[CaptainWagner]

It really is baffling to me. They must think it's "growing pains" as a few at the top want to go "full liberal" and move in to indoctrinate mode. They figure the core old school fans are growing older so forget them and let's try and get an ignorant youth readership that's used to this pandering. That is a TERRIBLE managerial decision.

Fans like me went from around 30 Marvel books a month to now about 5 and even those 5 are floundering.

One of the few titles I'm still reading is Daredevil and even that has some PC taint. His new sidekick is a character called Blindspot. Matt is mentoring a Latin ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT... Marvel's "rule of law guy" isn't helping him on a path to legal citizenship or anything but allowing him to run around as an illegal punching people and fighting crime. Love them creating new minority characters like this but at the same time thumbing their noses at established character traits.

Well, the old school fans aren't going to be around forever, you know. They have to draw in new readers, readers who don't have a problem with their comics having political stances. Did you have trouble with Green Arrow to, especially in the Mike Grell years? Because that was pretty "full liberal". Or John Ostrander calling out Reagan over social programs in the pages of Suicide Squad? So far none of these Marvel books have gone that far.

 

[Lord Valumart]

While on the subject of diverse comics/characters, Nighthawk has been canned:
http://www.cbr.com/nighthawk-team-confirms-marvel-series-cancellation/

6 issues? Surely they'll only have published like 3 issues by the time this was decided?

Although to be fair I didn't even know this book existed...

 

[Motown Marvel]

6 issues? Surely they'll only have published like 3 issues by the time this was decided?

Although to be fair I didn't even know this book existed...

4 issues are already out. It's an awesome book. Very much akin to 70's blaxploitation films and 80's cult action movies. I'm kinda surprised Marvel let it happen in the first place. But I'm glad they did. Disappointed it's being cancelled.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Comics are sorely in need of more diversity and better representation of minority characters. Marvel is making very admirable efforts to remedy this. And I dig most of the legacy characters Marvel have presented us with so far. But it's starting to get annoying this has become their sole mode of introducing minority characters. It's starting to feel cheap and lacking creativity. And worst of all, these minority characters don't get to define their own legacy, rather they are riding on the coat tail legacies of white male characters. Hell, the majority of these minority characters will be temporary. Tony Stark will be back as Iron Man. Steve Rogers is already back as Captain America. Odinson will be back as Thor. Sure, their replacements will still be around in some capacity, but they will always be in the shadow of their white male predecessor because their introduction lacked the creativity to be their own unique character. They will merely end up being defined as "the black Captain America" or "the lady Thor".

Have good creators create good and interesting characters, bring in minority creators who have been greatly missing from creative teams. Introduce these characters in established books and build them to be interesting characters which readers grow to have interest in. Give them important roles in the universe and then finally launch their own title. Yes, this takes time and doesn't produce the immediate sales of cheaply passing to them some already established mantle. But this route has longevity and respectability and allows minority characters to build their own lasting legacy.

Yeah, my thoughts pretty much.

 

[Lord Valumart]

So...

Which book do I need to read to keep up with the Clint Barton Hawkeye?

 

[CaptainWagner]

So...

Which book do I need to read to keep up with the Clint Barton Hawkeye?

It seems he's the lead in the Occupy Avengers title, launching in November. I have no idea what his role will be in the upcoming solo title, which will be focusing on Kate.

 

[YJ1]

It really is baffling to me. They must think it's "growing pains" as a few at the top want to go "full liberal" and move in to indoctrinate mode. They figure the core old school fans are growing older so forget them and let's try and get an ignorant youth readership that's used to this pandering. That is a TERRIBLE managerial decision.

Fans like me went from around 30 Marvel books a month to now about 5 and even those 5 are floundering.

One of the few titles I'm still reading is Daredevil and even that has some PC taint. His new sidekick is a character called Blindspot. Matt is mentoring a Latin ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT... Marvel's "rule of law guy" isn't helping him on a path to legal citizenship or anything but allowing him to run around as an illegal punching people and fighting crime. Love them creating new minority characters like this but at the same time thumbing their noses at established character traits.

Marvel abandoning tradition and continuity for no reason is beyond puzzling. When they blatantly reverse a character's course and change him/her to the core it's insulting to both fans and creators of the past. Those creators poured their souls in to caretaking and guiding the characters that were handed to them. Amending character traits and adding depth is one thing but misinterpreting characters and warping them to fit some new social agenda is another. It's like an extremely watered down version of Hitler using the Bible to support his warped agenda. A complete misinterpretation and bastardization of established truth.

Personally, I have now stopped reading most of all Marvel books because of this "social justice" crap.

Here are the books that I'm still holding on to and reading...

Uncanny Avengers (next to drop)
Uncanny X-Men
Guardians of the Galaxy
Squadron Supreme
Ant-Man
Hercules
Old Man Logan
Carnage
Daredevil
Punisher
Black Widow

In the future, they had better flush and flush big if they are going to get me back in full. I miss the REAL Cap, Thor, Spidey, Iron Man and Avengers.

 

[BillPardy]

To answer the title question of the thread, and not to rebuttal anyone's opinion directly... I don't give a $#!+.

I've been reading comics for a long time. Characters change, writers change, the world changes. I don't get why anyone would be 'ticked that all their favorite Marvel characters are getting replaced.' They're your favorite, not your property. In addition to that, the characters don't even belong to the creators.
This attempt to reach out to other demographics is a logical business move, and if at the same time this serves a social agenda... who cares?
Comics are one of the greatest places to tackle social issues. If social issues aren't interesting to you, you still get to enjoy the spectacle of people in costumes throwing one another through walls. If the social issues make you uncomfortable best thing to do is question why it all upsets you.