The problem is that readers don't want to pick up books about new characters that aren't legacy characters. Many comic readers say they are happy to see diversity but they would not bother picking up a original hero minority book unless it is part of a familiar franchise like Spider-Man or Thor.I notice you never addressed those who If Marvel REALLY wants to build diversity, they should be creating new characters or take an easier route of elevating existing ones. Push Blue Marvel, Puma, White Tiger, Cardiac, etc... Those are all diverse heroes with unique setups holding huge potential.
I hope everyone who's been wanting more diversity at marvel is reading "Nighthawk". Because that book has been super rad. Along with "Power Man and Iron Fist".
So there is no trying to determine my race, gender, age etc, let me preface this post with that info. I am a white male in my early 40's and have been reading comics since the late 70's/early 80's. My mother introduced me to them to get me to read as I had little interest in "See Spot Run." They also influenced me in picking up a pencil and drawing.
I have no problem with "legacy" characters. I have no problem with minority characters. Black Panther is one of my favorites as is Power Man. Blade is another favorite character of mine. I had no issue with Captain Marvel (Monica) leading the Avengers. In fact, that was one my favorite Avengers eras. I thought Falcon becoming Captain America was a different and cool idea. I did think it was a little too soon after Bucky Cap though.
My problem with some of the legacy characters is the "Mary Sue" phenomenon. Thor is the best example of this. I have read Thor for as long as I have been reading comics. I have been through Red Norvill Thor, Thor fighting Odin's eyeball, Beta Ray Bill, all the way to current Thor. Thor being unworthy has happened before. Him losing Mjolnir has happened before. My problem with Jane Thor is she immediately picks up Mjolnir and is automatically better at using it than Thor Odinson ever was. He even said so in the book that "Mjolnir never sang like that to him" or some such nonsense. She goes toe to toe with Odin like its no big deal whereas Odinson has gotten pounded by Odin numerous times. Odinson has died countless times and Jane seems more powerful than he has ever been and I have read Thor doing some amazing stuff before.
From what I have read about Riri, she is already going to be a better Iron Man than Tony.
That is my biggest issue with some of these legacy characters. They don't struggle with learning their powers, they just strap on the armor or pick up the hammer and "boom" they are the best there ever was. That is annoying to long time readers of these characters who have watched/read them go through their trials and tribulations and new discoveries of what they can do.
Yeah, quoting a known racist and sexist site like Brietbart doesn't exactly help your case...This article pretty much sums up perfectly why old school Marvel fans are angry and why we are disillusioned to the point of dropping most of our Marvel titles. We've simply stopped reading the books for the first time in decades...
http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/07/07/marvel-social-justice-insanity/
"When your customers lifelong comic fans pick up the latest issue to find a smorgasbord of irrelevant, hectoring social and pop culture commentary, they probably wont buy the next issue. Not because theyre sexists and racists, but because the stuff you are publishing sucks."
I dunno why you need to blame social justice warriors for any of this. Like I said, comics are awful when it comes to representation of minorities. It's a problem in media in general. That is something social justice warriors are fighting for, and they are absolutely right to do it. If marvel's response is to recognize the problem and want to do their part to rectify it by introducing more diversity into their line up, then that is the right thing to do. If you have a problem with how marvel is going about accomplishing that goal, then your problem is with marvel, not the social justice warriors.
So far, I really dig almost all the characters who have taken over legacy mantles. My problem is that tactic being marvel's sole route for accomplishing diversity, it's starting to feel cheap and I believe they have the creative talent to do better. But if I need to choose between a black female iron man or antiquated racist representation...i'll take black female iron man all day.
If you took anything other than that from my original post, then you should reconsider what you are agreeing with.
Also, this "REAL fan" talk is a bunch of b.s. Someone who picked up their first comic today and fell in love with Jane Foster Thor and prefers her over Odinson Thor is no less a real fan than anyone else.
Ohh, so you don't understand Mr. Tates posts. And here i was thinking negatively about you. I am ashamed at my own prejudice, please, accept ly apologies.You realize that you're the only one your posts makes sense to right? It's the reason everyone abandoned this thread when you took it over.
In this era, it is quite ridiculous and dishonest for any grown person in the US to claim misrepresentation of minorities in just about anything. I am from a minority, (a disrespected and discredited one), have many family members that are from other minorities and non minorities. On the rare get together oportunities we have had, things like racism, minority oportunities programs, machismo, feminism, politics in general come up a lot. At age 48, i can tell you i completely disagree with you on this matter. I do have experience with this. SJW's are a necesity in many ways, but if you think that in a world were kids die of hunger every day, minority representation in comicbooks is a real problem, then quite frankly i am damn glad to be far away from you. You delude yourself into importance and transcendence you don't have and so do many SJW's. And by the way, wether you agree or not, there are real fans and ocassional readers. You put them in the same "league" and call BS as if you, again, have the absolute truth on the matter. There are many real problems out there, not having a "taino" superhero is not one of them.
This argument is so incredibly ignorant. Just because their are bigger issues in the world doesn't mean that a smaller problem isn't important and shouldn't be addressed.
Representation in comics is not a larger problem than starving children, but there is no reason both of these problems can't be of concern in a proportion appropriate for each individual issue. By your train of thought, if I saw you get hit by a car, I shouldn't worry about calling for emergency help because the earthquake in Italy is a more serious problem.In this era, it is quite ridiculous and dishonest for any grown person in the US to claim misrepresentation of minorities in just about anything. I am from a minority, (a disrespected and discredited one), have many family members that are from other minorities and non minorities. On the rare get together oportunities we have had, things like racism, minority oportunities programs, machismo, feminism, politics in general come up a lot. At age 48, i can tell you i completely disagree with you on this matter. I do have experience with this. SJW's are a necesity in many ways, but if you think that in a world were kids die of hunger every day, minority representation in comicbooks is a real problem, then quite frankly i am damn glad to be far away from you. You delude yourself into importance and transcendence you don't have and so do many SJW's. And by the way, wether you agree or not, there are real fans and ocassional readers. You put them in the same "league" and call BS as if you, again, have the absolute truth on the matter. There are many real problems out there, not having a "taino" superhero is not one of them.
Apology accepted? Honestly, your posts and RoryTate's blur together. I'm just gonna assume you were going for patronizing sarcasm.Ohh, so you don't understand Mr. Tates posts. And here i was thinking negatively about you. I am ashamed at my own prejudice, please, accept ly apologies.
Apology accepted? Honestly, your posts and RoryTate's blur together. I'm just gonna assume you were going for patronizing sarcasm.
I hope you are doing something about starving kids instead of crying about SJWs on the internet.
Representation in comics is not a larger problem than starving children, but there is no reason both of these problems can't be of concern in a proportion appropriate for each individual issue. By your train of thought, if I saw you get hit by a car, I shouldn't worry about calling for emergency help because the earthquake in Italy is a more serious problem.
Fact of the matter is, the issue of representation isn't just a problem in comics. It's a very serious issue in all of media, which pretty much shapes society, and in turn affects how society views and treats minorities. You say you are a minority and this issue isn't a huge problem for you, cool. That really is great. But that doesn't mean your experiences as a minority are representative of minorities as a whole. Because as a whole, there is a very strong call from minorities for better representation in media. Comics are very popular right now, particularly with impressionable youths. If they can be exposed to respectable diversity in the media which they consume, that will offer them a better chance to have respect for the diversity they encounter in the real world.
You are the one who minimized the issue of representation in comics by randomly bringing up its relationship to starving children. You don't get to take issue with dramatics.I agree with some of this, but you are going a bit far now, no need for drama, come on. I think the point is clear. I do disagree about the representation on media. We have plenty. But thanks for your concern.
Clearly this is not a real problem,why don't you address that reality? The only ignorant thing here is the ridiculous amount of PC-student politics displayed by a few who think it their duty to re shape the world in a comic book forum. Many things become obvious from your response, i won't say or i will be banned. But from out here, you and some of your PC partners seem very full of yourselves. Ignorant? I have been called worst by finer, smarter and very dangerous people.
While on the subject of diverse comics/characters, Nighthawk has been canned:
http://www.cbr.com/nighthawk-team-confirms-marvel-series-cancellation/
This article pretty much sums up perfectly why old school Marvel fans are angry and why we are disillusioned to the point of dropping most of our Marvel titles. We've simply stopped reading the books for the first time in decades...
http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/07/07/marvel-social-justice-insanity/
Were seeing the worst falloff of Marvel and DC sales in the stores 38-year history, complained one comic book store owner in an industry forum. Both companies are losing established readers who no longer feel that the companys output reflects the sort of comics they enjoy.
For the first time in store history, yesterdays Marvel FOCs saw us ordering single digits on more than half of the line items in the Marvel section.
Marvels readership is souring particularly fast. With the exception of some big-name comics whose characters have, thus far, escaped the SJW purge of anything remotely resembling a straight white male, Marvel readers are simply going elsewhere.
Marvel have radically altered their classic characters by giving in to calls for more diversity, leading to a black Spiderman and female Thor. This has effectively turned the company into a multi-billion dollar feminist zine publisher.
Heres a newsflash for Marvel: race-baiters and gender warriors who complain endlessly about the lack of diversity in comic books dont buy comic books. Theyre interested in identity politics, not fun.
When your customers lifelong comic fans pick up the latest issue to find a smorgasbord of irrelevant, hectoring social and pop culture commentary, they probably wont buy the next issue. Not because theyre sexists and racists, but because the stuff you are publishing sucks.
People read comic books to escape the real world, and readers have had enough of being called privileged cis white men, or misogynist MRAs, in the real world, let alone the one place they get to escape it. If you want to put these things in your comic books, go ahead, but readers are just going to stop buying them.
Marvel is stuck between appeasing gobby SJWs, making SJWs mad by appeasing them and then attempting to fix an even messier situation than just giving the blue-haired elephants a much need middle-finger. Theyre not too worried now, given the success of superhero movies at the box office.
But while the company is making bank from Hollywood, hoping that audiences remain enthusiastic about increasingly desperate franchise crossovers, theres trouble on the horizon, not just for the studios core intellectual property, but the creative integrity of its work, too. Serves them right.
Charlie Nash
"When your customers lifelong comic fans pick up the latest issue to find a smorgasbord of irrelevant, hectoring social and pop culture commentary, they probably wont buy the next issue. Not because theyre sexists and racists, but because the stuff you are publishing sucks."
Well, the old school fans aren't going to be around forever, you know. They have to draw in new readers, readers who don't have a problem with their comics having political stances. Did you have trouble with Green Arrow to, especially in the Mike Grell years? Because that was pretty "full liberal". Or John Ostrander calling out Reagan over social programs in the pages of Suicide Squad? So far none of these Marvel books have gone that far.It really is baffling to me. They must think it's "growing pains" as a few at the top want to go "full liberal" and move in to indoctrinate mode. They figure the core old school fans are growing older so forget them and let's try and get an ignorant youth readership that's used to this pandering. That is a TERRIBLE managerial decision.
Fans like me went from around 30 Marvel books a month to now about 5 and even those 5 are floundering.
One of the few titles I'm still reading is Daredevil and even that has some PC taint. His new sidekick is a character called Blindspot. Matt is mentoring a Latin ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT... Marvel's "rule of law guy" isn't helping him on a path to legal citizenship or anything but allowing him to run around as an illegal punching people and fighting crime. Love them creating new minority characters like this but at the same time thumbing their noses at established character traits.
While on the subject of diverse comics/characters, Nighthawk has been canned:
http://www.cbr.com/nighthawk-team-confirms-marvel-series-cancellation/
6 issues? Surely they'll only have published like 3 issues by the time this was decided?
Although to be fair I didn't even know this book existed...
Comics are sorely in need of more diversity and better representation of minority characters. Marvel is making very admirable efforts to remedy this. And I dig most of the legacy characters Marvel have presented us with so far. But it's starting to get annoying this has become their sole mode of introducing minority characters. It's starting to feel cheap and lacking creativity. And worst of all, these minority characters don't get to define their own legacy, rather they are riding on the coat tail legacies of white male characters. Hell, the majority of these minority characters will be temporary. Tony Stark will be back as Iron Man. Steve Rogers is already back as Captain America. Odinson will be back as Thor. Sure, their replacements will still be around in some capacity, but they will always be in the shadow of their white male predecessor because their introduction lacked the creativity to be their own unique character. They will merely end up being defined as "the black Captain America" or "the lady Thor".
Have good creators create good and interesting characters, bring in minority creators who have been greatly missing from creative teams. Introduce these characters in established books and build them to be interesting characters which readers grow to have interest in. Give them important roles in the universe and then finally launch their own title. Yes, this takes time and doesn't produce the immediate sales of cheaply passing to them some already established mantle. But this route has longevity and respectability and allows minority characters to build their own lasting legacy.
So...
Which book do I need to read to keep up with the Clint Barton Hawkeye?
It really is baffling to me. They must think it's "growing pains" as a few at the top want to go "full liberal" and move in to indoctrinate mode. They figure the core old school fans are growing older so forget them and let's try and get an ignorant youth readership that's used to this pandering. That is a TERRIBLE managerial decision.
Fans like me went from around 30 Marvel books a month to now about 5 and even those 5 are floundering.
One of the few titles I'm still reading is Daredevil and even that has some PC taint. His new sidekick is a character called Blindspot. Matt is mentoring a Latin ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT... Marvel's "rule of law guy" isn't helping him on a path to legal citizenship or anything but allowing him to run around as an illegal punching people and fighting crime. Love them creating new minority characters like this but at the same time thumbing their noses at established character traits.