Are DC films held to a higher Caliber by critics?

It's tough to compare Avengers and MOS in terms of destruction. But breaking it down to the lowest common denominator it's writing vs writing. The Avengers script specifically called for some of the heroes to do things to get civilians out of the way of destruction when possible (i.e. Hulk turning the leviathan away from the building, Hawk/Widow getting people out of the bus, Cap getting people out of the building) while the MOS script seemed to not. Whether that was purposeful or simply a brain fart, who knows.

But to compound off of something C Lee said, I think the way the Avengers handled the "this is hard but at least we're trying" subtext was much better than MOS. In Avengers you had various characters look beaten half to death and physically exhausted but they didn't quit. That was purposeful, it wasn't on set improv. MOS needed some more of that for me. The main reason it looked like two cgi gummy people hitting each other is they looked exactly the same from beginning to end. Aside from the collateral damage the characters looked unscathed. That looks kind of silly in live-action.
 
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Avengers also shows the rebuilding of New York at the end and some of the aftermath. Everything isn't just magically back to normal like in Man of Steel.
 
Hah that's why i don't like to compare the two movies. It makes MOS look so much worse.
 
Well with The Avengers, while some of the heroes are helping people the others are fighting the threat enabling them to do so.

Superman is just one man, there should've been a scene of him saving people more obviously but you'd have to have the villains stop to let him do so
 
It's tough to compare Avengers and MOS in terms of destruction. But breaking it down to the lowest common denominator it's writing vs writing. The Avengers script specifically called for some of the heroes to do things to get civilians out of the way of destruction when possible (i.e. Hulk turning the leviathan away from the building, Hawk/Widow getting people out of the bus, Cap getting people out of the building) while the MOS script seemed to not. Whether that was purposeful or simply a brain fart, who knows.

But to compound off of something C Lee said, I think the way the Avengers handled the "this is hard but at least we're trying" subtext was much better than MOS. In Avengers you had various characters look beaten half to death and physically exhausted but they didn't quit. That was purposeful, it wasn't on set improv. MOS needed some more of that for me. The main reason it looked like two cgi gummy people hitting each other is they looked exactly the same from beginning to end. Aside from the collateral damage the characters looked unscathed. That looks kind of silly in live-action.

As much as I agree with alot of this, you are talking about how the audience is perceiving things and the effect of adding this, that and this...

That doesn't excuse hyperbole and untrue statements. At some point 'Superman is an ******* that doesn't care about anyone' is petty, no matter how much more dirt and grime and circumstance is afforded to the other film. I get that we're all human but I expect fair intelligence from our critics. I agree that staging things differently would help the film. However I don't agree that the film presented plenty of rhetoric as to excuse why he couldn't. If staged better, TDK/TDKR could have been alot better in this regard, but what about working within the staging? Judging films for what they are, not judging them for what they didn't add from your list. It's the very same thing with just how much superman talks and jokes. Given the nature of a drifter superman story, he should be introverted. A better superman film might be one with alot more cheery talking but that's not judging a film in and of itself. The curse of mos.

I do think directors need to not be afraid of wrecking superhero suits. Spidey/Ironman/TF get this very right. It's simple but very effective. Thor/Superman/Batman, not so much. If they ever do a doomsday story, I will throw my popcorn if his suit is **** and span.

One of the reasons I'm glad the turtles have armor and clothes, it's begging to be 'worn'.
 
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Well with The Avengers, while some of the heroes are helping people the others are fighting the threat enabling them to do so.

Superman is just one man, there should've been a scene of him saving people more obviously but you'd have to have the villains stop to let him do so

You do realize this is the central crux of pretty much every issue of Superman ever right?

Overcoming that challenge is pretty much what a Superman story is.
 
You do realize this is the central crux of pretty much every issue of Superman ever right?

Overcoming that challenge is pretty much what a Superman story is.

There it is. Said it simpler than I would have.
 
As much as I agree with alot of this, you are talking about how the audience is perceiving things and the effect of adding this, that and this...

That doesn't excuse hyperbole and untrue statements. At some point 'Superman is an ******* that doesn't care about anyone' is petty, no matter how much more dirt and grime and circumstance is afforded to the other film. I get that we're all human but I expect fair intelligence from our critics. I agree that staging things differently would help the film. However I don't agree that the film presented plenty of rhetoric as to excuse why he couldn't. If staged better, TDK/TDKR could have been alot better in this regard, but what about working within the staging? Judging films for what they are, not judging them for what they didn't add from your list. It's the very same thing with just how much superman talks and jokes. Given the nature of a drifter superman story, he should be introverted. A better superman film might be one with alot more cheery talking but that's not judging a film in and of itself. The curse of most

I do judge films for what they are. But when I find them severely lacking I question why that is. Which is where comparisons to other films, books, stories and personal experience come in. Being a good critic/reviewer doesn't mean you go into a movie pretending it's the first movie you've ever seen, quite the opposite. The more films you watch, books you read and educated people you discuss pop culture with the better suited you are to point out flaws in entertainment projects.

To me MOS is eerily similar to The Amazing Spider-Man. Almost beat for beat thematically. The reason I rate TASM much higher than MOS isn't because it's better on a technical level, because it's not, it's because I was much more entertained.

But I digress. To paraphrase the great Ian Malcolm 'they're too worried wondering if they could that they didn't stop to ask if they should.' That's pretty much how I feel about the storytelling flaws presented in MOS because the filmmakers tried to be too original for originality's sake and forgot that making a Superman movie comes with expectations rooted in the origin of the character and almost every one of his translations.
 
We tore up downtown , man....But the ppl ain't got no problem with that ****. Our heroes went to eat some tasty burgers afterwards, you have to support your local shops.

Das it mayne.
 
You do realize this is the central crux of pretty much every issue of Superman ever right?

Overcoming that challenge is pretty much what a Superman story is.

Bingo. Still this is a good thread some great discussions on here.
 
Superman disables Zod's ship, but he doesn't do anything to divert it when it falls (unlike in SR where he safely places the 747 on the ground, or in STMP where he replaces the damaged engines with himself and lands the president's plane) and it smashes through 4 highrises before crashing in the street taking out several smaller buildings. Now, we haven't been shown the full extent of his powers at this time, it's quite possible that Zod's ship is just too big for him to be able to stop, but it would have been nice to see him try.

True, but Superman does down the ship in an area that visually, appears to have already been destroyed by the World Engine.

I'm wondering if he'd even be able to stop the ship after using that much heat vision. During the film, the heat vision seems to take something out of him.
 
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It's more than that.
- TDKT showed how Bruce can move on from his trauma. Why is Bruce coming back if he's supposedly free from Batman's grip?

The same reason he always has?

To help people.
 
We tore up downtown , man....But the ppl ain't got no problem with that ****. Our heroes went to eat some tasty burgers afterwards, you have to support your local shops.

Das it mayne.

Superheroes should not just defeat bad guys and save civilians, but they should also stick around afterward to help with the rebuilding?

I don't think so.
 
You do realize this is the central crux of pretty much every issue of Superman ever right?

Overcoming that challenge is pretty much what a Superman story is.
In most superman stories he saves the day and over comes his opponent. The misconception is that he wins in every thing, every time and to the utmost(see doomsday to see this not happen), has actually hurt the brand and the irony here is that in order to fix such perceptions, the producers have to contend with a large audience of fans that actually want that which has been turning them and more importantly the rest of the audience off of the character for so long.
Almost like a paradox.

In what world is a protagonist that always and in the in the utmost wins, better? When it's superman? Hello boring brand.

In spiderman/batman his girl friends have been killed and he's failed. In superman he reverses time and saves everyone(no consequence). Then we ask why the audience can relate to some of these guys more than others. Seems like a simple solution, make him less perfect and more relatable.

I do judge films for what they are. But when I find them severely lacking I question why that is. Which is where comparisons to other films, books, stories and personal experience come in. Being a good critic/reviewer doesn't mean you go into a movie pretending it's the first movie you've ever seen, quite the opposite. The more films you watch, books you read and educated people you discuss pop culture with the better suited you are to point out flaws in entertainment projects.
The more specifically you do this, the more specific the audience your reviews are geared to. It tends to beg the question of just who your reviews are for. The people that read the first five issues of such and such or the millions of people that want to know if they are going to like this movie outright.

Maybe every critic should come with a mast head: my reviews for for people born before the 70's and have seen all of coppola's films, also the people that have read Twain for this will add a varied perspective on the second act. I just feel it does the practice a huge service to try and measure their reviews for 'everyone' including the tons of 17year olds heading to cinema on friday.

But I digress. To paraphrase the great Ian Malcolm 'they're too worried wondering if they could that they didn't stop to ask if they should.' That's pretty much how I feel about the storytelling flaws presented in MOS because the filmmakers tried to be too original for originality's sake and forgot that making a Superman movie comes with expectations rooted in the origin of the character and almost every one of his translations.
1. Not everyone in the audience has those same expectations( some cinema fans that like fallibility or loss)
2. Not everyone in the audience likes those expectations(see people that finally want to see a different superman or have avoided him for the past 40 years)
3. Not everyone in the audience even knows of such expectations(see kids or new fans)

I like your analogy however with superman in particular it's far more complicated than just, maybe if they made superman as fanboys wanted WB would have found greater success. I don't think so. Not after 2006. I also think the fact that film made about as much as IM1/ASM is a testament to that.

And to bring it all back to the topic, it's something dc faces that marvel doesn't at this point. Not only battling 'preconceived/conditioned expectation' but battling such things as they might not be conducive to the modern cinematic audience.

If you take that wonderful cinematic moment where batman loses rachel and replace it with superman losing lois in the same way. The reviews go from, great cinema to............superman is the embodiment of overcoming his challenge....ergo no beuno.
 
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The more specifically you do this, the more specific the audience your reviews are geared to. It tends to beg the question of just who your reviews are for. The people that read the first five issues of such and such or the millions of people that want to know if they are going to like this movie outright.

Maybe every critic should come with a mast head: my reviews for for people born before the 70's and have seen all of coppola's films, also the people that have read Twain for this will add a varied perspective on the second act. I just feel it does the practice a huge service to try and measure their reviews for 'everyone' including the tons of 17year olds heading to cinema on friday.

Hah I don't think you understand the game bud. Are you really saying that reviewers/critics shouldn't do background homework? C'mon now.

Film is subjective. So is your readership. You can't write a review that's accessible to everyone. It's impossible. I speak to the people of my generation (early 30s) because that's who/what I know. If people younger and/or older see eye to eye with me that's great but I can't go out of my way to try to write like Roger Ebert or like whoever puts those one paragraph reviews in Teen Vogue. The vast majority of moviegoers don't read reviews. Period. So why would I try to pander to all of them? I wouldn't. I don't.
 
Hah I don't think you understand the game bud. Are you really saying that reviewers/critics shouldn't do background homework? C'mon now.

Film is subjective. So is your readership. You can't write a review that's accessible to everyone. It's impossible. I speak to the people of my generation (early 30s) because that's who/what I know. If people younger and/or older see eye to eye with me that's great but I can't go out of my way to try to write like Roger Ebert or like whoever puts those one paragraph reviews in Teen Vogue. The vast majority of moviegoers don't read reviews. Period. So why would I try to pander to all of them? I wouldn't. I don't.
I'm not saying that...pal. :yay:
No one has to pander or 'not do their research', do what you want.

Someone grows up on a Lex Lutor that has existed in cinema up and until 1991, they go into a modern superman movie and encounter a Luthor that is very much of the contemporary comics and of our modern world of cinema(not corny). I expect them to review this piece of art with something approaching objectivity and for the majority of the paying audience and not simply in direct relation to what they loved about 'where they are from'. Ergo my bit about 'for everyone' and not just 'for the people that come from what I come from.'

I'd say the same exact thing to the art critic that walks into the modern gala. And prints out a review for the masses in a very popular news column. Somewhere there is a young artist who instead of having his work touch a modern crowd of people as only art can, the work as been shunned before it's even given a chance and by the dude that has 'his own expectations of art due to where he comes from(12th century)'.
This is pretty much happened to Pollack imo.

I can only imagine what kinda reviews a film like 'Baraka' would get in a world of critics with expectations of film. Probably something similar to a the review a superman film would get from critics with their own expectations of necessity. Luckily that didn't happen, and the film got great reviews even with no character arcs.
 
Superheroes should not just defeat bad guys and save civilians, but they should also stick around afterward to help with the rebuilding?

I don't think so.

People could still be trapped under some damaged buildings...but that's ok. We were hungry and Tony was buying. We all laughed.
 
People could still be trapped under some damaged buildings...but that's ok. We were hungry and Tony was buying. We all laughed.

Makes you wonder what people would have said if Superman was eating in a burger joint the day of. Perhaps that there was finally some much needed fun in a dc movie.
 
Makes you wonder what people would have said if Superman was eating in a burger joint the day of. Perhaps that there was finally some much needed fun in a dc movie.

I love both teams.

I get my funny awesome Superhero movie with Marvel.

Darker tone more serious one with DC.

We should all be happy! Why we fighting?
 
I think it's a simple case of DC trying to approach their properties like "high art" which doesn't satisfy the true cinephiles and turns off more dyed in the wool comic purists.

Marvel starts their properties off with the acknowledgment "Look,we've got both feet firmly in the four color comics,but we're gonna tell a story that will hopefully grab viewers of all ages."
 
I think where MoS missed the boat more or less comes down to the execution. People would have gone in with a certain expectation of what a Superman movie should be, when a character is in the public conscious for 75 years there's a formula of sorts people expect, something that the Marvel films don't have to contend with, but at the same time a better execution would probably have overcome that obstacle. I see the foundations of Man of Steel actually being quite strong, it just needed a better creative team in order to get produce the goods. I'm of the firm opinion that the flawed execution is why some people say it's not what Superman is suppose to be, because ultimately if the overall film was better people wouldn't even be thinking about it what is 'suppose' to happen.
 
I think it's a simple case of DC trying to approach their properties like "high art" which doesn't satisfy the true cinephiles and turns off more dyed in the wool comic purists.

Marvel starts their properties off with the acknowledgment "Look,we've got both feet firmly in the four color comics,but we're gonna tell a story that will hopefully grab viewers of all ages."

Bingo, MS is more about creating entertainment. DC is as well, but I think after Batman & Robin, they are more afraid to embrace some of the more comic-y stuff.
 
The approach to Man of Steel wasn't the problem. It was the execution.
 

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