Are DC films held to a different, higher standard?

Except you answered it yourself. In STM, unlike MoS, he doesn't have one conversation with Jor-El and is suddenly Superman. He is with Jor-El for TWELVE YEARS, training to become Superman. That's a big difference.

It's 12 years of hibernating in a remote crystal fortress and then he's Superman. His training is Socratic at best. There is no interaction with real people or field trials of Kal's powers. He steps into the Fortress and steps out as Superman. That's like going to college to become a teacher without student teaching or becoming a doctor without an internship or residency. At least Clark in Man of Steel had a history of saving people before becoming Superman. We actually saw him learning how to fly.

Wrong, Clark learns about his purpose and puts on the suit after 12 years of training (unlike MOS where he does so in maybe a day) but he becomes superman when humans (lois and the pilot) are in trouble.

He becomes Superman because he already has the suit under his clothes. He already has a double life in place. He is entirely set up to be Superman and leaves that Fortress with that mission. Clark had already decided to be Superman and was just waiting for the moment to debut.

Clark in Man of Steel, by contrast, does not just become Superman after speaking to Jor-El. He tests his powers, returns home to Smallville, and then watches Zod threaten the world. Jor-El may have shared with Clark a vision for his son's future, but he wasn't the catalyst for Clark trusting that the world was ready to accept someone like him. It was Lois, and the risks she took on his behalf that made all the difference. If Jor-El was the sole reason that Clark became Superman, then the scene in the church would never have happened.

For Clark, something more than his biological father's teachings were necessary. That something more was the demonstration of trust Lois showed for Clark. Reeve's Superman, however, was good to go as soon as he trained with Jor-El. There was no other influence separating Clark before or after Superman than Jor-El and his messages in the Fortress of Solitude.
 
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Wait, Lois Lane inspired him to be Superman...?

Where was that shown in Man of Steel?
 
He becomes Superman because he already has the suit under his clothes. He already has a double life in place. He is entirely set up to be Superman and leaves that Fortress with that mission. Clark had already decided to be Superman and was just waiting for the moment to debut.

No what you said was that he leaves the fortress as superman and what I'm saying that for me he becomes superman when I see him actually saving people's lives and making a difference.

Jor-El may have shared with Clark a vision for his son's future, but he wasn't the catalyst for Clark trusting that the world was ready to accept someone like him. It was Lois, and the risks she took on his behalf that made all the difference. If Jor-El was the sole reason that Clark became Superman, then the scene in the church would never have happened.

I disagree the catalyst(s) for him becoming superman include Jor el, Lois and the world being threatened.

For Clark, something more than his biological father's teachings were necessary. That something more was the demonstration of trust Lois showed for Clark. Reeve's Superman, however, was good to go as soon as he trained with Jor-El. There was no other influence separating Clark before or after Superman than Jor-El and his messages in the Fortress of Solitude.

you need to rewatch superman the movie because Clark began his journey to adulthood and his superheroic destiny because of the incidence with Johnathan and not merely because his father's crystals started calling out to him...."all these things I could do, all these powers and couldn't even save him".
 
Jor-El didn't have anything to do with Clark coming forward as Superman. He came forward because while Jonathan was convinced the world wasn't ready for a Superman, it was Lois who showed Clark that the world was ready now. It was Lois who discovered him, discovered his story, trusted him, and took a leap of faith with him that gave him hope that the time was right. What could be more pro-human than a human being the reason that Clark was able to finally embrace everything about himself and share it with the world?

This is the statement I don't understand. What was presented in Man of Steel that would lead us to believe Lois was the catalyst for him coming forward as Superman, and not Jor-el?

The entire first act of the movie he was seeking answers as to who he was and where he came from; he then meets his biological father for the first time who explains his past, his importance as the first natural Kryptonian birth in centuries, and most importantly, his role as a leader and harbinger of hope for mankind. We then see him suit up and fly around earth for the first time as Superman. And yet, Jor-El had nothing to do with Clark coming forth as Superman? How can you watch this scene and come to that conclusion?

Moreover, what was presented in the movie that would make you believe that Lois was the deciding factor? He does thank her for believing in him before they board Zod's shop, but all of their interactions (save for their initial meeting where he saves her) take place after he meets Jor-El and triumphantly flies around the world suited up.

To support your argument you'd have to ignore the entire scene with Jor-El and his first flight, and place more significance on one line from Superman thanking Lois for believing in him, even though she believed in him after he already figured out who he was, where he came from, and what he was intended to do.

You're free to interpret the movie how you'd like, but I feel confident saying that's not what the film makers intended.

It was Lois, and the risks she took on his behalf that made all the difference. If Jor-El was the sole reason that Clark became Superman, then the scene in the church would never have happened.

How does the church scene negate Jor-El's clear influence on him becoming Superman?
He tells the priest that he doesn't know if he can trust Zod, and that he also doesn't know if he can trust humans. If anything this scene disproves your point. If Lois were the sole reason, or even the main reason, it would've been communicated in this scene where he directly talks about not trusting humans.
 
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Jor-El didn't have anything to do with Clark coming forward as Superman. He came forward because while Jonathan was convinced the world wasn't ready for a Superman, it was Lois who showed Clark that the world was ready now. It was Lois who discovered him, discovered his story, trusted him, and took a leap of faith with him that gave him hope that the time was right. What could be more pro-human than a human being the reason that Clark was able to finally embrace everything about himself and share it with the world?

Jor-El laid out his purpose for him, told him everything he's supposed to be and sent him off with a mission and a costume. Well into his thirties, the ideals and conviction needed for the full-on Superman were nowhere to be seen and what defined him was an identity crisis and fear of rejection; then Jor-El gives him info and suddenly it's clear. I really don't know how much mileage you can get out of disputing that mere succession of events. Lois gave him confidence that revealing himself wouldn't be the mistake that he feared, which is very cool and much to the film's credit.

I go back to my original point, though, the notion there was a right, ideal, morally perfect time for him to do it in, which is what Jonathan's empty philosophy was based on. Is the idea of a Superman relevant/resonant only in the context of an alien invasion? Was he never needed before that? Should altruism be suppressed in favor of the "bigger picture" when that picture, that ideal tailor-made situation, may never come and you don't know for a fact that it will? It's certainly what the film tries to vindicate amidst its hodgepodge of mutually contradictory agendas.

ETA: The plot you are describing, the one where Clark meets Jor-El for the first time and "whoop" he's Superman, that's the plot of the first Reeve/Donner film, SUPERMAN I. Clark walked into his new Fortress of Solitude as a young man, and then years later, he flew out of there wearing a new suit and displaying new powers. So, what I'm getting at, is that it seems like you confused which film to which you were referring.

I'm not a fan of that anymore than you seem to be. But not super relevant when the film being discussed is MOS and I never made a comparison. MOS could have bothered to be different in that regard, what with its mission statement of being modern and distinctive, and it didn't, to the point where the moment of "Supes emerging from the FOS after being educated by alien dad" sees itself repeated.
 
Jor-El laid out his purpose for him, told him everything he's supposed to be and sent him off with a mission and a costume. Well into his thirties, the ideals and conviction needed for the full-on Superman were nowhere to be seen and what defined him was an identity crisis and fear of rejection; then Jor-El gives him info and suddenly it's clear. I really don't know how much mileage you can get out of disputing that mere succession of events. Lois gave him confidence that revealing himself wouldn't be the mistake that he feared, which is very cool and much to the film's credit.

The "mere succession of events" to which you are referring do not support your argument. The order of events do not show Cavill's Superman speaking to Jor-El and subsequently becoming Superman. There is most definitely several other catalyzing events that occur after his interaction with Jor-El that influence Clark's decision to come forward to be a hero to humanity. In the film, Clark speaks to Jor-El, tests his powers, returns home to Smallville, speaks to his mother, speaks to Lois at his father's grave, watches the Zod message on television, visits a minister, and then reveals himself to mankind. Along the way, several important things happen. The most important, of course, is meeting Lois at his father's grave. Rather than exploit him, Lois chooses kill her story. She returns to Metropolis to face disciplinary action at work and later federal prosecution because of her decision to ally herself with Clark. You admit that what defined his Superman was a "crisis of fear and rejection" and then later conclude that "Lois gave him confidence that revealing himself wouldn't be the mistake that he feared." If Jor-El's message that conveyed a mission and a purpose was all that was necessary to propel Clark to embrace being a hero, then one speech from Jor-El was not the catalyst for Clark becoming Superman in the DCEU. Furthermore, just to be clear, the assertion that there was nothing in Clark's life prior to meeting with Jor-El that spoke to Clark's capacity for heroism and selflessness is blatantly false. Clark is clearly shown saving people for over a decade. He had a history of heroism before he discovered his biological father. Everything about the film's "succession of events" disproves your thesis.

I go back to my original point, though, the notion there was a right, ideal, morally perfect time for him to do it in, which is what Jonathan's empty philosophy was based on. Is the idea of a Superman relevant/resonant only in the context of an alien invasion? Was he never needed before that? Should altruism be suppressed in favor of the "bigger picture" when that picture, that ideal tailor-made situation, may never come and you don't know for a fact that it will? It's certainly what the film tries to vindicate amidst its hodgepodge of mutually contradictory agendas.

Jonathan's philosophy was about Clark making sure that he came forward when his son was ready and the world needed him most. The Zod invasion provided that opportunity. It wasn't just the alien invasion that encouraged Clark to become Superman. The belief that Lois showed in Clark was presented as vital, too. Clark was needed before that moment, and what the film showed us is that Clark did use his powers for good before he became Superman. He didn't hide in the shadows. He altruistically helped people. It was that story that became the first story Lois Lane wrote for The Daily Planet about Superman. Before he debuted as Superman, his heroic efforts were already getting global coverage. He was, according to the article, a "guardian angel." Clark fully revealed himself to the world when the "bigger picture" most clearly demanded it and experience had shown Clark that among humanity there were those who were ready to accept him.

I'm not a fan of that anymore than you seem to be. But not super relevant when the film being discussed is MOS and I never made a comparison. MOS could have bothered to be different in that regard, what with its mission statement of being modern and distinctive, and it didn't, to the point where the moment of "Supes emerging from the FOS after being educated by alien dad" sees itself repeated.

It is not repeated. In Superman: The Movie, the succession of events is that Clark is bullied at school, he has some fun with his powers, his father died after telling his son there's a reason Clark was sent to Earth, Clark attends his father's funeral, travels north, creates the Fortress, trains for 12 years essentially via download, and then heads to Metropolis to begin his double life as a reporter and a hero. There is nothing between Jor-El and becoming Superman that shapes Clark and his decision to come forward. There's not even a record of heroism preceding his debut marking him out as a hero. Man of Steel, by contrast, shows us that Jor-El was not all that was necessary to make Clark into a Superman. Nor was Jor-El responsible for Clark's decade of heroism prior to his debut. Jor-El didn't shape Clark into a guardian angel. Man of Steel did bother to be different.
 
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This is the statement I don't understand. What was presented in Man of Steel that would lead us to believe Lois was the catalyst for him coming forward as Superman, and not Jor-el?

He doesn't come forward until Lois protects his secret with her imprisonment and Zod threatens Earth. He has to consult with a priest before coming forward. If Jor-El was the catalyst, then he was a pretty poor one. Jor-El shaped Clark's idea about what he could be and the powers he could use, but Clark's issue was always about timing when it came to going public. So, if what we're debating is what ultimately got Clark to come forward as Superman, the facts of the film don't support that it was Jor-El.

You're free to interpret the movie how you'd like, but I feel confident saying that's not what the film makers intended.

And I'm confident that it is, so we can agree to disagree.

How does the church scene negate Jor-El's clear influence on him becoming Superman?
He tells the priest that he doesn't know if he can trust Zod, and that he also doesn't know if he can trust humans. If anything this scene disproves your point. If Lois were the sole reason, or even the main reason, it would've been communicated in this scene where he directly talks about not trusting humans.

Clark isn't yet at the point that what Lois has done is indicative enough of all of humanity's potential reaction. So the important part of the scene is when the priest says that you take a leap of faith and the trust part comes later. That line gets Clark to reflect differently on what Lois is doing for him. She's taking a leap of faith, so he should too. He follows her example. Her influence is highlighted further when it is Lois Superman asks for as soon as he makes contact, and it's Lois he thanks for believing in him because, according to him, it made a difference. Regardless, meaning let's set aside the Lois issue for the sake of argument, the fact that Clark is even indecisive and consulting anyone about this instead of already being public suggests that Jor-El wasn't a sufficient catalyst.
 
The "mere succession of events" to which you are referring do not support your argument.

I feel it easily does in part, because it's made quite clear what Clark's life amounted to while having only Jonathan's influence to go by. Unhappy, traumatized, unfulfilled. Without Jor-El's enlightenment, why wouldn't it have continued in that line? Chronology helps back it up for the reasons above stated.

The order of events do not show Cavill's Superman speaking to Jor-El and subsequently becoming Superman. There is most definitely several other catalyzing events that occur after his interaction with Jor-El that influence Clark's decision to come forward to be a hero to humanity. In the film, Clark speaks to Jor-El, tests his powers, returns home to Smallville, speaks to his mother, speaks to Lois at his father's grave, watches the Zod message on television, visits a minister, and then reveals himself to mankind. Along the way, several important things happen. The most important, of course, is meeting Lois at his father's grave.

I didn't state that he doesn't speak to people. He has dialogue scenes, some of which feed into his motivations, good. You call them catalyzing factors, yet what is the decisive factor behind him abandoning his drifter existence and understanding not only his abilities and origin, but his purpose? Because he clearly needs to be informed about it and can't come up with one on his own. Jor-El. And what led him into those 10-plus year of aimlessness? Jonathan. Along with the trauma of his death, and the fears inherited from his father -- feelings that would have never been counterbalanced if not for Jor-El, and yeah, Lois. They're simple instances of cause and effect. Clark becomes Superman in spite of the Kents, not because of them. The film goes out of its way to show that the Kent philosophy is clearly insufficient.

Furthermore, just to be clear, the assertion that there was nothing in Clark's life prior to meeting with Jor-El that spoke to Clark's capacity for heroism and selflessness is blatantly false. Clark is clearly shown saving people for over a decade. He had a history of heroism before he discovered his biological father. Everything about the film's "succession of events" disproves your thesis.

Words employed: ideals and conviction. He's a good-hearted kid and helps people out of instinct, but is also mostly a projector screen for the ideals of his father figures and doesn't show to a meaningful degree many of his own. He lets Jonathan impose his own views to the point of detriment and never speaks of “hope” until Jor-El pins the theme to his chest. What does he think of his own ability to influence the world, to help or inspire or to change anything? Film doesn't say. It would've helped reflect intelligence, for one. And it's extra sad that it extends throughout his twenties and into his thirties, just for the benefit of a cheap Christ parallel.

It is not repeated. In Superman: The Movie, the succession of events is that Clark is bullied at school, he has some fun with his powers, his father died after telling his son there's a reason Clark was sent to Earth, Clark attends his father's funeral, travels north, creates the Fortress, trains for 12 years essentially via download, and then heads to Metropolis to begin his double life as a reporter and a hero. There is nothing between Jor-El and becoming Superman that shapes Clark and his decision to come forward. There's not even a record of heroism preceding his debut marking him out as a hero. Man of Steel, by contrast, shows us that Jor-El was not all that was necessary to make Clark into a Superman. Nor was Jor-El responsible for Clark's decade of heroism prior to his debut. Jor-El didn't shape Clark into a guardian angel. Man of Steel did bother to be different.

“Supes emerges from the FOS after being educated by alien dad”. Does that happen in STM? Yes. Does it in MOS? Mm-hm. That's how easy it was to back up that comparison. The films obviously have different plots, yeah. Yet a more meaningful differentiation has been seen in Byrne's Man of Steel or Birthright, where Clark proactively decides to take his identity into his own hands, and where Superman is a creation of his very own. Snyder's take seems purposefully based on religion: the wise aspirations of God (Jor-El's) as an antidote to the weak, fear-based views of men (Jonathan's). It's a far cry from the humanism that I think could make the Superman character very resonant today. It's a simple matter of taste, but I for one think what they've gone for is stale as hell.
 
He doesn't come forward until Lois protects his secret with her imprisonment and Zod threatens Earth.

Using only information presented in the movie, how do we know he only comes forward because of Lois?

So the important part of the scene is when the priest says that you take a leap of faith and the trust part comes later.

Funny how that line ties perfectly into Jor-El's speech:

"The people of earth are different from us. But ultimately I believe that's a good thing. They won't make the same mistakes we did. Not if you guide them, Kal. Not if you give them hope. That's what this symbol means. The symbol of the house of El means hope. Embodied within that hope is the fundamental belief in the potential of every person to be a force for good. That's what you can bring them."

That line gets Clark to reflect differently on what Lois is doing for him. She's taking a leap of faith, so he should too. He follows her example. Her influence is highlighted further when it is Lois Superman asks for as soon as he makes contact, and it's Lois he thanks for believing in him because, according to him, it made a difference.

You're telling me why Clark did what he did, explaining what you think was going on in his head, but you haven't provided anything in the movie that would support this beyond your own interpretation. Had the film makers intended Lois to be the only catalyst that brought Clark out as Superman, you'd be able to make a convincing argument using concrete examples instead of filling in the blanks like this.

Regardless, meaning let's set aside the Lois issue for the sake of argument, the fact that Clark is even indecisive and consulting anyone about this instead of already being public suggests that Jor-El wasn't a sufficient catalyst.

But by this point Lois had already been arrested. So he was indecisive and consulting someone instead of already being public... suggesting that Lois, your supposed catalyst, wasn't sufficient either. And if your interpretation is that the "leap of faith" line made him reconsider what she was doing for him, then that line could just as easily be interpreted in a way that it makes Clark reconsider what his father told him in the part that I quoted.

So if him consulting a priest negates my argument (it doesn't), then by your own logic it should negate yours as well.

For the record I'm not saying Lois had nothing to do with his decision to come forward, but your original claim that Jor-El had nothing to do with it is clearly wrong. Jor-El giving him all the answers he had been seeking his entire life, the classic Superman outfit, and a clear set of ideals to lead and inspire humanity wasn't the catalyst that made him become Superman; instead Clark at some point silently decided that it was all Lois, even though the movie doesn't convey this? That's why I'm confident that this was not the filmmaker's intentions. Snyder is an inept story-teller, but surely he isn't this inept.
 
Well Wonder Woman's getting great reviews after 3 mixed to negatively reviewed DCEU movies...
 
Well Wonder Woman's getting great reviews after 3 mixed to negatively reviewed DCEU movies...

So if DC films are held to a higher standard then Wonder Woman must be the best superhero movie ever made. Then again so far she is scoring higher than Superman: The Movie and The Dark Knight.
 
So if DC films are held to a higher standard then Wonder Woman must be the best superhero movie ever made. Then again so far she is scoring higher than Superman: The Movie and The Dark Knight.

TDK was also higher than The Godfather for a while. But regardless, it's awesome that it's getting such good reviews.
 

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