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Are there enough well paying jobs available to eliminate poverty?

MessiahDecoy123

Psychological Anarchist
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If not, then why do conservatives blame poverty on a lack of ambition from poor people.
 
Plus if everyone had a well paying job wouldn't that just cause an insane amount of inflation that still allows an underclass?
 
I don't think so - but there whole logic is that they should be able too make a job for themselves and that it is their responsibility - and it's fair logic, that isn't flawed, however history dictates that people need guidance, not everyone is born with that drive. I think that's where the problem lies, so much was given too past generations in how too create and run your own jobs, now it's a lot harder since so many people have become really good at running businesses in todays world. Look how many millionaires can let their company bankrupt but they remain rich, its crazy.
 
I don't think so - but there whole logic is that they should be able too make a job for themselves and that it is their responsibility - and it's fair logic, that isn't flawed, however history dictates that people need guidance, not everyone is born with that drive. I think that's where the problem lies, so much was given too past generations in how too create and run your own jobs, now it's a lot harder since so many people have become really good at running businesses in todays world. Look how many millionaires can let their company bankrupt but they remain rich, its crazy.

Why does it rest upon the poor to create jobs? If business savvy billionaires and millionaires can't do it easily how can a guy struggling to make it from day to day?
 
I don't think so - but there whole logic is that they should be able too make a job for themselves and that it is their responsibility - and it's fair logic, that isn't flawed, however history dictates that people need guidance, not everyone is born with that drive. I think that's where the problem lies, so much was given too past generations in how too create and run your own jobs, now it's a lot harder since so many people have become really good at running businesses in todays world. Look how many millionaires can let their company bankrupt but they remain rich, its crazy.

Yes it is. Despite what the "American Dream" tries to tell you, not every person has equal opportunities. There are many factors in society that can keep people poor and unemployed.
 
Yes it is. Despite what the "American Dream" tries to tell you, not every person has equal opportunities. There are many factors in society that can keep people poor and unemployed.


I would Disagree. My father came over from Greece as teenager not speaking English, had a 8th grade education and 40 dollars in his pocket. He is now a very successful business man. Where there is a true will there is a way.
 
Yes it is. Despite what the "American Dream" tries to tell you, not every person has equal opportunities. There are many factors in society that can keep people poor and unemployed.

I agree with the bold part. People obviously do not have equal opportunities. How could they? The only way to remotely achieve that is to resort to Plato's society of children being brought up by the State, and no one wants that. The best we can do is an approximation of equal opportunity, which has been cause of much discussion. How do we get closer to equal opportunity while still maintaining individual freedom? That's what Rawls and many others tried to figure out with their theories of justice.

I do disagree with the second half of your statement though. While I'm sure there are exceptions, in a first-world country most people do have opportunities to make a living and improve themselves, like Herakles' father (even though there are more opportunities for some than there are for others). People are generally not kept poor or unemployed.

Things are drastically different in dictatorships or third-world democracies, of course.
 
I would Disagree. My father came over from Greece as teenager not speaking English, had a 8th grade education and 40 dollars in his pocket. He is now a very successful business man. Where there is a true will there is a way.

People think that if you work hard enough, you will be successful.

Persevering increases your chances of becoming successful, but without a sufficient amount of luck, you won't get there. I suggest you read Outliers and A Drunkard's Walk.

We put successful people on a pedestal, thinking that they are better than us in some way (usually by way of their intelligence or talent) and that's why they became successful. This isn't true. They were both smart/talented and lucky. People seriously undermine the role that chance plays in our lives.

Chalking everything up to just working hard is narrow-minded.
 
Because it's easy to kick people who are down. Demagogues rarely go after the powerful. The right is and has always been the side of the powerful. Be it the monarchy, the church or the state.

What a lot of people don't realize is that the poor have been the poor for a damn long time. Even in America, where there's a fair amount of social mobility, most of the poor today, had poor ancestors. And their children will be poor. The same is true for the rich.

For there to be wealth, there has to be poverty. In America today, the rich are obliterating the middle class. It's easy for them to blame the poor.
 
I was looking at the percentage of countries below the poverty line and most Western and First World countries have between 5 and 15 percent poverty.

The Third World ranges between 30 and 70 percent.

The stand out was Taiwan with just over 1 percent.

So what's the biggest factor for these differences?

Can any country get to 1 percent with enough ambitious individuals?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_percentage_of_population_living_in_poverty

I used the CIA percentages on the right under "countries".
 
It's hard to eliminate poverty in the US when there are groups of people that choose to live a certain way. They avoid education, have babies out of wedlock, and are continuing the cycle of dependance on welfare state. Refusing low wage jobs when you have no education, and rather choosing to collect off taxpayers. That is the case with some of those in poverty. You can't just hand them jobs they aren't qualified for. It is a societal problem they need to fix. Everyone, even the poor can get an education. Then you can be qualified for more than the low wage jobs of retail and food service.
 
It's hard to eliminate poverty in the US when there are groups of people that choose to live a certain way. They avoid education, have babies out of wedlock, and are continuing the cycle of dependance on welfare state. Refusing low wage jobs when you have no education, and rather choosing to collect off taxpayers. That is the case with some of those in poverty. You can't just hand them jobs they aren't qualified for. It is a societal problem they need to fix. Everyone, even the poor can get an education. Then you can be qualified for more than the low wage jobs of retail and food service.

So is the answer to cut welfare? Is that going to get the poverty rate to 1 percent?

Beyond the issue of laziness you have a few issues:

1) A limited amount of well paying jobs

2) A poor education system, how can you expect people to have upward mobility when they aren't properly educated?

3) lots of low paying jobs for the undereducated which keeps the working poor employed but still impoverished.

Even if everyone magically becomes a worker ant, you still have to deal with these problems.
 
I don't buy into the poor education system argument in most cases. The poor parenting system in these poverty ridden areas such as inner cities, is the biggest issue. The teachers have to do a lot to get certified to have students in the first place. These students are being taught the materials, and have every opportunity to work towards a decent education even in underfunded schools. Parents are not taking the time to do their job and get them learning. Why? Cause it is a cycle passed on to them, which they pass on inevitably. Their poor parents didn't work hard and get an education and it keeps coming down the line. The education they get? This is how you apply for foodstamps son. This is how you get section 8 housing son. This is how you get get money for having those babies, daughter. It is a societal issue. Either they care to become a better society or the problem continues.
 
It's hard to eliminate poverty in the US when there are groups of people that choose to live a certain way. They avoid education, have babies out of wedlock, and are continuing the cycle of dependance on welfare state. Refusing low wage jobs when you have no education, and rather choosing to collect off taxpayers. That is the case with some of those in poverty. You can't just hand them jobs they aren't qualified for. It is a societal problem they need to fix. Everyone, even the poor can get an education. Then you can be qualified for more than the low wage jobs of retail and food service.

The amount of ignorance in this post is astounding.

First of all, the abuses of the welfare system are the exception, not the rule.

Secondly, you assume women actively choose to have children out of wedlock, completely ignoring their lack of education and their social status. Birth control is not readily available to them and they're not properly educated about the risks and dangers of unprotected sex. And if you think that the women should just not have sex if they can't afford birth control, then you're horribly naive.

What sort of education are you talking about? High school? Post secondary? People with little to no education generally have children that follow suit. It's a vicious cycle. They didn't choose it, they were born into it. And you're ignoring the role that race, gender, social status, etc play in these choices. It's hard to teach your kids that they can be whatever they want to be in life when you know full well that is not true.
 
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I don't buy into the poor education system argument in most cases. The poor parenting system in these poverty ridden areas such as inner cities, is the biggest issue. The teachers have to do a lot to get certified to have students in the first place. These students are being taught the materials, and have every opportunity to work towards a decent education even in underfunded schools. Parents are not taking the time to do their job and get them learning. Why? Cause it is a cycle passed on to them, which they pass on inevitably. Their poor parents didn't work hard and get an education and it keeps coming down the line. The education they get? This is how you apply for foodstamps son. This is how you get section 8 housing son. This is how you get get money for having those babies, daughter. It is a societal issue. Either they care to become a better society or the problem continues.

What is your basis for this? Do you have a friend of a friend of a friend who knows someone that has more children to milk money out of the welfare system?
 
Someone needs to tally up all the available jobs that pay enough to escape poverty. Then add up all of the people within working age.

I'm pretty sure there are more working age people than there are available jobs that pay well.

The idea that every hardworking person has a well paying job waiting for them is a myth.

There will always be the working poor, the undereducated, and the unemployed who genuinely can't find work.

Cutting social programs doesn't solve any of this.
 
There can be opposing views without the basis of ignorance thrown out there to make your point. :rolleyes: Birth control is readily available/cheap and the lack of education point again...... displays the primary issue of bad parenting within that societal area. These parents take no care or ownership into the future of their children. That involves elementary, to middle, to high school, to college, to beyond. :o Fix the parenting issue and watch society improve. You have to be capable of performing these higher wage jobs. If not, stop scoffing and passing up low wage jobs as if you are too good for it. Don't force feed me PC rhetoric if you wish to continue a discussion between us. I don't mind opposing views but the claims of "ignorance" and "naivety" are counter productive.
 
I don't buy into the poor education system argument in most cases. The poor parenting system in these poverty ridden areas such as inner cities, is the biggest issue. The teachers have to do a lot to get certified to have students in the first place. These students are being taught the materials, and have every opportunity to work towards a decent education even in underfunded schools. Parents are not taking the time to do their job and get them learning. Why? Cause it is a cycle passed on to them, which they pass on inevitably. Their poor parents didn't work hard and get an education and it keeps coming down the line. The education they get? This is how you apply for foodstamps son. This is how you get section 8 housing son. This is how you get get money for having those babies, daughter. It is a societal issue. Either they care to become a better society or the problem continues.

Where do you get your information?

Did you interview millions of people on welfare who admitted learning how to game the system from their parents or is it just an assumption from what you hear from radio and pundits?

Let me tell you of an experience I had recently.

I was dropping of a library book my son had forgotten at his inner city school. A black woman was dropping off her two sons around six years old. They were obviously a hand full and were playing and talking loudly in the office. The woman asked the secretary to speak with one of her son's teacher. The secretary called the teacher during class to see if she could see the mother. She told the mother the times available and the woman became frustrated and flustered. "I can't, I have to work". The secretary didn't reply. The mother fighting tears told the boy, "You better behave and listen or", she couldn't hold back the tears. She ran out the office crying. The boy became upset and began loudly crying. A womsn in the office tried to hug him and console him.

This woman was trying her best to push her son through school. Her working hours so busy she couldn't even meet with the teacher.

I don't need to tell you how this will end. Another hardworking mother has to watch her two unruly sons drop out of high school and run the streets. She worked hard every day but it wasn't enough.

These are the stories you won't hear on right wing radio about the other reasons for cyclical poverty outside the average person's control. Stories about the working poor who push their kids to go to college but the obstacles prove too numerous and large.
 
I'd say institutional racism plays a pretty damn big role. Though poverty is an interracial issue. Rural poverty is also a major issue, and that mostly effects white people.
 
I was going to make a long winded post in this thread....and then I realized it was far left vs. far right and I just want you to know both sides are in the wrong!

By the way, the problem is simple. Outsourcing and a bad education system have crippled this countries job availability.
 
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Persevering increases your chances of becoming successful, but without a sufficient amount of luck, you won't get there. I suggest you read Outliers and A Drunkard's Walk.

.

Hard Work, perseverance, and knowing when to take chances creates luck my friend.
 
If not, then why do conservatives blame poverty on a lack of ambition from poor people.

I mean you can't take an absolutist stance because nobody is really making that statement. There will be unemployment and that's why we have a safety net so it's not really a fair argument you are making because Republicans often repeat the line we need a safety net not a hammock. And as far as public policy is concerned that is something you should always be concerned with. Does the policy disincentivize work and if so to what extent and is that a trade off that's worthwhile?

Case in point though that there does seem to be a lack of motivation from those on welfare considering South Dakota was practically begging for people to move there for good paying jobs, but people wouldn't get up and move there. You would think if you were on the dole for a long period of time you would jump at the opportunity, but that wasn't the case. So yes, there is something wrong with the system.
 
I mean you can't take an absolutist stance because nobody is really making that statement. There will be unemployment and that's why we have a safety net so it's not really a fair argument you are making because Republicans often repeat the line we need a safety net not a hammock. And as far as public policy is concerned that is something you should always be concerned with. Does the policy disincentivize work and if so to what extent and is that a trade off that's worthwhile?

Case in point though that there does seem to be a lack of motivation from those on welfare considering South Dakota was practically begging for people to move there for good paying jobs, but people wouldn't get up and move there. You would think if you were on the dole for a long period of time you would jump at the opportunity, but that wasn't the case. So yes, there is something wrong with the system.

I think something is seriously wrong when people are so desperate they move to the middle of nowhere to feed themselves.

There's a reason these social programs were created after the Great Depression.
 
I think something is seriously wrong when people are so desperate they move to the middle of nowhere to feed themselves.

There's a reason these social programs were created after the Great Depression.

I think there is something seriously wrong with someone who chooses to live on welfare instead of earn a real wage themselves when the opportunity is there for them to do so. It's also not something that is permanent, it can be seen as a temporary situation to build their resume and perhaps gain a new skill. It's something wrong with their values. I am talking about people who choose, not people who are disabled or unable to travel due to family or other issues they may have.
 

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