Utopia part 2- the end of poverty, crime, hopelessness, and depression

[Abaddon]

But see, I don't view these things in ideological terms. I see them in practical terms.

In reality - if the government has enough influence over our youth to inspire strict discipline, they will turn them into government-friendly puppets.

nd I think socialism has a number of problems that make it much less than ideal. But you can say the same of any government.

Anyway, but there isn't strict discipline. It's a few programs incorporated into the curriculum that'll benefit the children.

 

[StorminNorman]

nd I think socialism has a number of problems that make it much less than ideal. But you can say the same of any government.

Anyway, but there isn't strict discipline. It's a few programs incorporated into the curriculum that'll benefit the children.

Sure, and thats how it would start. You start with a few government mandated lessons that influence discipline. And then a few programs to promote patriotism. And then lets through in a bit of nationalism.

So on and so forth - and then you have the Spider Bite Youth Party.

 

[Kritish]

If you have the GOVERNMENT teaching these principals - then you will have the Government be able to teach Government-Friendly beliefs and values.

That is scary.

The current head of the government would like you to join the military at age eighteen and drive a Chevy pickup. I don't want the government teaching my children how to think.

 

[StorminNorman]

The current head of the government would like you to join the military at age eighteen and drive a Chevy pickup. I don't want the government teaching my children how to think.

Exactly.

 

[Abaddon]

Sure, and thats how it would start. You start with a few government mandated lessons that influence discipline. And then a few programs to promote patriotism. And then lets through in a bit of nationalism.

So on and so forth - and then you have the Spider Bite Youth Party.

That's why the government needs to operate under a system of checks and balances. And what good would promoting patriotism do? Seriously.

 

[StorminNorman]

That's why the government needs to operate under a system of checks and balances. And what good would promoting patriotism do? Seriously.

If the Government is competent - they will still be working towards common goals.

Blind Patriotism gives the Government more control. The people will then be more willing to support the military and whatever actions its Commander-In-Chief find necessary.

Again - allow Parents to Parent, and Governments to Govern.

 

[Abaddon]

If the Government is competent - they will still be working towards common goals.

Blind Patriotism gives the Government more control. The people will then be more willing to support the military and whatever actions its Commander-In-Chief find necessary.

Again - allow Parents to Parent, and Governments to Govern.

It isn't parenting. There's no system of rewards and punishment, or at least not any different than there would be in any classroom today. Besides, there are solutions to problems concerning how much influence the government would have over schools. If the idea here is to create a "perfect" society, than obviously the people should have certain choices regarding their children's education.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Really, I haven't focused too much on the socialist aspect, but since this is a "utopia", for arguments sake I'm operating under the condition that the Government doesn't have the opportunity to be corrupt. So there aren't any government-friendly beliefs being taught, but rather, people-friendly beliefs and values, which benefit individuals and society as a whole.


not that scary.

Your living on Seasame Street then. Oscar the Grouche may be great at teaching moral and sensible values. But Oscar is not connected to a big bureaucracy interested in gouging you for money to fight wars over oil and resources. So Oscar is not going to teach you to be giant Government puppets, or to "love Big Brother", or to pay more taxes.

Government is fine providing the "when and what". You have to pay your taxes (what) in April (when). They have no purpose telling you how, where or why. If you want to pay your taxes naked (how), in the privacy of your own home (where) because you don't want to get arrested (why), so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, that's fine...and Government needs to stay out of it.

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

Machines already have an important part of life in the west,this wont change.This will only get worse,crime?That will slowly be dredged out,but it will be a very..very long time.Poverty?Either help those people,or eliminate them.

 

[Spider-Bite]

the anti-socialism argument is extremely partisan. It's ridiculous. For those saying that socialism governments go bankrupt and fall?

That's what happens to every major power form one century to the next.

What's your definition of a socialist government? Every government passes rules and laws. Every time the government passes a law, one could argue it just became more powerful. That is irrleveant. All that is relevant is the results.

Look at taxing cigarettes. That's socialist and it's not bankrupting the government. Neither is NASA. In fact it's helped the economy.

Sometimes good laws are passed and somtimes bad laws are passed.

And not to mention the overwhelming majority of collge professors, sociologists, historians, and economists are socialist democrats.

The small government party has given us huge deficit every time they were in power for the last 40 years. The socialist party has given us surplusses every time they were in power.

When howard Dean was governor of Vermont, during just 11 years, he used a lot of socialist programs to turn their deficit into a surplus, protect the environment, get teen pregnancies down, graduation rates up, fight poverty, and increase his state's number of jobs by a whopping 20%. He implemented a social program called success by six to protect children from being molested. It successfully lowered the number of children being molested annually by 50%. 50%!

And oh yeah, he did all that without once raising taxes. In fact he lowered them not once, but twice.

Howard Dean is a far left liberal socialist. When socialism is done right it's a good thing. Howard Dean proved that beyond any doubt. I imagine the main rebuttal i will get to this is that howard dean screamed really loud during a campaign speech.

My plan will go into effect. It's inevitable. I doubt i'm the first person to think of it, and it's really inevitable. The human worker is going to become obsolete. i just hope big business doesn't have too much power over the government when this happens. In other words I hope we don't have somebody like Bush as president.

Dangerous big government would be dicatorships or governments that have the power to decide who lives or dies, such as the death penalty. That is the ultimate power that neither me nor anybody else, including the government should have. We are not Gods, and it's not our place. I understand some people support it, but if you do, than don't pretend your all for small government. That is the biggest the government can possibly get and history has shown that killing people is one of the most dangerous things a government can do. It is a dangerous slippery slope.

Emen.

 

[Spider-Bite]

Your living on Seasame Street then. Oscar the Grouche may be great at teaching moral and sensible values. But Oscar is not connected to a big bureaucracy interested in gouging you for money to fight wars over oil and resources. So Oscar is not going to teach you to be giant Government puppets, or to "love Big Brother", or to pay more taxes.

Government is fine providing the "when and what". You have to pay your taxes (what) in April (when). They have no purpose telling you how, where or why. If you want to pay your taxes naked (how), in the privacy of your own home (where) because you don't want to get arrested (why), so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, that's fine...and Government needs to stay out of it.

So I take it you support legalizing heroine than don't you? I guess if children don't want to go to school we should just let them drop out right?

Or maybe sometimes the government has to tell people what to do for the good of society. Without rules we might as well be flinging our crap at each other in trees.

I imagine there was a time when small government advocates said "If some people want to go to school to better themselves and get an education than that's their choice. But if I want my children to spend more time with their family and help us out on the farm than the government needs to stay out of it. Who are they to tell us what to do?"

I'm sure that was a long time ago, but those small government advocates were wrong. The socialists got it right. Small government advocates today are really no different from those farmers centuries ago.

 

[Addendum]

The government is not in the business of raising people, nor should it.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

So I take it you support legalizing heroine than don't you? I guess if children don't want to go to school we should just let them drop out right?

Or maybe sometimes the government has to tell people what to do for the good of society. Without rules we might as well be flinging our crap at each other in trees.

Note that last part: as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, it's not Governments business. We do allow parents to determine the type of education they want their child to have. Whether it be home school, private or public. But to insist one form of education trumps the other is presumptious on the Governments part.

It's up to the parent and child what education they wish to seek.

And yes I have given thought to legalizing certain drugs, specifically pot. It's also, in my opinion, not the Government's job to protect an individual from himself/herself just from others. That's rather Millsian. But I believe it.

Racists who threated the lives of others should be censored and potentially imprisoned. Those who keep their hands to themselves should be able to live their hate filled lives to their hearts content. They should be able to say racial slurs to their racist friends. Their morality and decisions to live that way should not be legislated, provided they aren't causing violence or breaking laws in the process...but said laws should not be designed against them specifically.

The right for people to self-detemine, to be individuals is the highest right in my opinion. It's your own business to destroy or build your own life. Your Marine Biologist friend was, no offense, being a dumba$$ when he knocked up another girl.

If your Utopia includes me cleaning up other people's personal messes, then it's no Utopia...in fact I'd imagine that's what hell is like.

 

[Spider-Bite]

My vision of a utopia is a world where the garbage was already cleaned up way before you were even born.

What if parents don't want their children learning about the most important scientific theory in the world? Evolution is an important theory.

No it should not be up to the parent. A lot of things shouldn't be up to parents. MOst parents are stupid and lazy who only correct their children when they are trying to hear the television. I'm all for the government helping our youth grow up to be happy healthy individuals. it would be selfish of me not to.

And it's not fair to future generations if we don't do what we need to do today to make the world a better place. If you don't help make the world a better place than much of the blood shed will be on your hands.

Education effects everything which is why we can't leave it up to parents, because too many parents are idiots.

 

[Spider-Bite]

The government is not in the business of raising people, nor should it.

It takes a village to raise a child. The victim of society argument is a valid argument and a proven one. If I opposed doing what was necessary I would be just as guilty as if I committed murder myself. Just like religous schools and churches are partly to blame for gays around the world being killed or oppressed.

Look at history and the direction the human race takes all too often. If we don't intervene and do what's necessary to guide society than we will ultimately repeat those same mistakes all over again.

You guys want to execute criminals, but where were you when that child was being neglected? When that child was bein corrupted and raised incorrectly? When that child didn't get the childhood it should have!

And to hit the nail on the head. A governmental social program implemented by Howard Dean when he was governor of Vermont was called the success by six program. You know it did? It fullfilled it's purpose. It lowered the number of children being molested by 50%! 50%!

A governmental social program.

 

[StorminNorman]

My vision of a utopia is a world where the garbage was already cleaned up way before you were even born.

What if parents don't want their children learning about the most important scientific theory in the world? Evolution is an important theory.

Question: What function does the Scientific Theory of Evolution have on the life of a plumber. Really? You are thinking about the intellectual professions - that does not make up most of America.

Also - answer this. Do you feel having any sort of religious teaching is important? Many people would argue that it is an important part of humanity.

No it should not be up to the parent. A lot of things shouldn't be up to parents. MOst parents are stupid and lazy who only correct their children when they are trying to hear the television. I'm all for the government helping our youth grow up to be happy healthy individuals. it would be selfish of me not to.

And it's not fair to future generations if we don't do what we need to do today to make the world a better place. If you don't help make the world a better place than much of the blood shed will be on your hands.

Education effects everything which is why we can't leave it up to parents, because too many parents are idiots.

I see your wisdom now - but you are not looking at the big picture. After child birth, we will take the babies and bring them to a Government Camp. There they will all be taught exactly the same information. They will be raised to be the same. That way there will be no sense of poverty, crime or hopelessness - because these ideas would simply not be known.

It makes so much sense now

 

[Spider-Bite]

I'm really hitting nails on heads today. You guys aren't even bothering to try confront the examples of successful social programs I've pointed out, because there is no argument to be made against them.

 

[Spider-Bite]

Question: What function does the Scientific Theory of Evolution have on the life of a plumber. Really? You are thinking about the intellectual professions - that does not make up most of America.

Unless he has a gay son who commits suicide because his father was taught how much of a sin it was. Where were you when that child heard his father say they all belong in hell? Where were you? You were saying that father shouldn't have been forced to learn about evolution. We have a responsiblity to teach our children math, science, english, and a lot of other things as well.

Also - answer this. Do you feel having any sort of religious teaching is important? Many people would argue that it is an important part of humanity.

I want a social studies class that teaches children about other cultures including several religions and the effects religion has on society.

I see your wisdom now - but you are not looking at the big picture. After child birth, we will take the babies and bring them to a Government Camp. There they will all be taught exactly the same information. They will be raised to be the same. That way there will be no sense of poverty, crime or hopelessness - because these ideas would simply not be known.

No. I want children to learn from history that not everybody has to be the same. I want them to learn to oppose bigotry by exposing them to different ways of life. I don't want a religous school teaching everybody that they have have to be the same or straight. I want a school like the one I went to, saying, "It's okay. Your not alone. Your not wrong." And I don't care if parents oppose the school doing it or not.

I don't want school teaching children that they all have to be Christain. They all have to have the same religion or they are going to hell.
the phychology class I would want is to teach people to understand their thinking cycles, just like the rehabillitatio classes we make criminals take. I want to give people the phychological power to take control of their life and their emotions, instead of their emotions controlling them.

I absolutely don't want everybody to be the same. I want lots of diversity. I think that will assist the so called odd ones of the bunch dramatically. They wont be the weird one because everybody is weird. That is most of the reason for my support of my world peace plan in the other thead. I want all kinds of different people in the same jobs, the same schools, the same neighborhoods getting to know each other, becuase that's the ultimate cure for bigotry. That's why I suppport Affirmative Action. We need blacks and whites living together, and AA will speed up desegregation.

 

[Abaddon]

Your living on Seasame Street then. Oscar the Grouche may be great at teaching moral and sensible values. But Oscar is not connected to a big bureaucracy interested in gouging you for money to fight wars over oil and resources. So Oscar is not going to teach you to be giant Government puppets, or to "love Big Brother", or to pay more taxes.

Government is fine providing the "when and what". You have to pay your taxes (what) in April (when). They have no purpose telling you how, where or why. If you want to pay your taxes naked (how), in the privacy of your own home (where) because you don't want to get arrested (why), so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, that's fine...and Government needs to stay out of it.

I don't even remember what's being argued here. Give me a refresher, sans muppet analogy.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I don't even remember what's being argued here. Give me a refresher, sans muppet analogy.

Nah...that's alright.

 

[StorminNorman]

Unless he has a gay son who commits suicide because his father was taught how much of a sin it was. Where were you when that child heard his father say they all belong in hell? Where were you? You were saying that father shouldn't have been forced to learn about evolution. We have a responsiblity to teach our children math, science, english, and a lot of other things as well.

You are trying to take away the parent from a child's upbringing and exchange it instead for the Government. Do you know how dangerous that is? Sure, there are some horrible parents out there - but that does not make up the majority and you can not take the control over ones kids away from the parents.

A plumber does not NEED to know how to write a 5 paragraph paper. He can live a happy life without that skill. It seems under your doctrine, all children will be taught the same curriculum - that is as stupid and flawed as the current public school system.

I want a social studies class that teaches children about other cultures including several religions and the effects religion has on society.

Then that is taking the spirituality from the religion. But of course you don't care about this - because you look down upon Christians.

No. I want children to learn from history that not everybody has to be the same. I want them to learn to oppose bigotry by exposing them to different ways of life. I don't want a religous school teaching everybody that they have have to be the same or straight. I want a school like the one I went to, saying, "It's okay. Your not alone. Your not wrong." And I don't care if parents oppose the school doing it or not.

But thats exactly what you are doing here. You are putting everyone through a single cookie cutter education. Your anti-religious bigotry is incredibly hypocritical.

I don't want school teaching children that they all have to be Christain. They all have to have the same religion or they are going to hell.
the phychology class I would want is to teach people to understand their thinking cycles, just like the rehabillitatio classes we make criminals take. I want to give people the phychological power to take control of their life and their emotions, instead of their emotions controlling them.

They aren't now. But you also don't want them to become Christian.

Again - what good does a psychology class going to have on a kid that wants to build cars. You aren't looking at things realistically.

I absolutely don't want everybody to be the same. I want lots of diversity. I think that will assist the so called odd ones of the bunch dramatically. They wont be the weird one because everybody is weird. That is most of the reason for my support of my world peace plan in the other thead. I want all kinds of different people in the same jobs, the same schools, the same neighborhoods getting to know each other, becuase that's the ultimate cure for bigotry. That's why I suppport Affirmative Action. We need blacks and whites living together, and AA will speed up desegregation.

You want diversity, yet you want one world government. You want diversity, yet you don't want people to feel different from anyone else. I don't see that as logical. Who is going to force the different people to live together? You? You are going to force people to join together with your iron fist? You have to let the people make the choice - if you force it, it will never happen.

 

[StorminNorman]

I'm really hitting nails on heads today. You guys aren't even bothering to try confront the examples of successful social programs I've pointed out, because there is no argument to be made against them.

For every successful social problem, you can find hundreds of failed ones. However you can't argue with success.

Also, before you start humbly patting yourself on the back - you may want to address a post of mine from a while ago you never answered:

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11356163&postcount=56

 

[ShadowBoxing]

My vision of a utopia is a world where the garbage was already cleaned up way before you were even born.

Oh, so it's like I live my life with everything just there for me on a silver platter, courtesy of Big Brother...no thank you. I like hardships. I wouldn't go to the gym or go on adventures or study at school if I had no sense of delayed gratification. Pain is a good thing. Creativity, innovation, motivation, will power, pain tolerance all come from pain...

Ever heard of the "Skinner Box". Skinner thought much like you, if he took away all the slips and trips and scraps of the world (from his daughter) she would be completely sane. The result, she was socially inept, turned out all those "bad emotional episodes" we have as children actually are what turn us into mature, free thinking adults.

What if parents don't want their children learning about the most important scientific theory in the world? Evolution is an important theory.

Then that is their choice. You seriously think in my educational experience I haven't had to shed misconceptions or re-think my old indoctrinated positions on things to gain new perspective. If we let the Government decide for both people and parents what we need to know, that's bad. It takes away the ability for me to self-determine.

No it should not be up to the parent. A lot of things shouldn't be up to parents. MOst parents are stupid and lazy who only correct their children when they are trying to hear the television. I'm all for the government helping our youth grow up to be happy healthy individuals. it would be selfish of me not to.

Yeah but then the Government who essentially is held in check by all those selfish, lazy, ignorant people's opinions and standards would be telling those people how to live. Defining what it means to be "happy" and "healthy". That means the Government could define itself, make Bush dictator because that's what would make you "happy and healthy", go to war with other nations because that's what would make you "happy and healthy", tax the sh** out of you because that is what is "good" for you.

s not fair to future generations if we don't do what we need to do today to make the world a better place. If you don't help make the world a better place than much of the blood shed will be on your hands.

I do thank you very much. But I lead by example, not by manipulation. Just today I got a 65 year old guy attempting pull ups just because I started to work out in front of him. I didn't coerce him, I just talked to him and my myself known, made myself heard and got an otherwise self admitted lazy guy to get geared up about working out. I did something without manipulating him.

education effects everything which is why we can't leave it up to parents, because too many parents are idiots.

And the Government is now a bunch of geniuses...these the same geniuses who went to war on false pretexts. Yeah, I want them totally in charge of my education

 

[Spider-Bite]

=StorminNorman;11409196]You are trying to take away the parent from a child's upbringing and exchange it instead for the Government. Do you know how dangerous that is? Sure, there are some horrible parents out there - but that does not make up the majority and you can not take the control over ones kids away from the parents.

[/QUOTE]
How is not doing it any less dangrous? Especially if done right.

A plumber does not NEED to know how to write a 5 paragraph paper. He can live a happy life without that skill. It seems under your doctrine, all children will be taught the same curriculum - that is as stupid and flawed as the current public school system.

Why should one child be entitled to a better education than another kid?

You didn't even adress that scenario. Where were you when that father was being educated by religous fanatics? Where were you? If I took your position I'd be just as guilty as if I killed the kid myself. Your values create victims of society.

Then that is taking the spirituality from the religion. But of course you don't care about this - because you look down upon Christians.

Really? My 7 year old sister asked me to teach her about Jesus. I'm about to be reading her the bible several times a week and I'm looking into finding a church for her that will not teach her that her atheist brother and her lesbian sister are going to hell. why? Because she wants to go to church. If I really wanted to stop her from being Christain i would send her to a conservative church, because I already know that as soon as she hears their bull**** about atheists and lesbians my sister would reject that, because she loves her family.

But thats exactly what you are doing here. You are putting everyone through a single cookie cutter education. Your anti-religious bigotry is incredibly hypocritical.

Because I want everybody to live under a government that protects their right to practice their religion without prosecution that makes me a bigot? I don't lose compassion for somebody just because they live on the other side of the border. I don't only care about the American gays, women, etc.

They aren't now. But you also don't want them to become Christian.

They would be if we privatized education in more schools than they already do.

I wont lie. I don't want people to be Christain. It's a feeling that I have but will never let control me. I wouldn't try to force people into being atheists. I don't even believe it's the most efficent way to secularlize the world. I believe education, debate, evidence, and knowledge will do the job just fine in the long run.

Again - what good does a psychology class going to have on a kid that wants to build cars. You aren't looking at things realistically.

It has nothing to do with building cars. If he likes building cars than that's what he should do. The phychology class should be implemented in a child's late teen years. I'm talking about a pre-emptive rehabillitation class to help the kid understand his own thinking cycles. This is to teach people how their actions will effect their own children. To teach them how to understand themselves and others. To make people less likely to molest children, become addicted to drugs, or become severely depressed.

You want diversity, yet you want one world government. You want diversity, yet you don't want people to feel different from anyone else. I don't see that as logical. Who is going to force the different people to live together? You? You are going to force people to join together with your iron fist? You have to let the people make the choice - if you force it, it

I know forcing them would never work. I don't want to force anybody. I merely believe that we should offer incentives and have open dialoge to get people to make the choice.

A good way to desegrate the world would be with immigration prior to joining up with a country. When we've joined up with a lot of countries we will have a large abundance of land. Especially when we join up with Africa.
Remember that we have to wait for societies to be socially ready before we let them join. We can't allow 500,000,000 voters into the country who will overnight amend the constiution and enslave women.
By the time Africa is socially ready chances are their population will be low. When we join up with those countries we offer immigrants free lots so long as they live there for 20 years. Those lots will be pre-designated so that people have neighbors from different cultures.

I oppose intolerance, and you call that bigotry. I oppose slavery and you call that bigotry towards their culture. There is a difference from accepting and tolerating diverse cultures and lifestyles, and tolerating the victimization and oppression of another human being. There is a difference. And that difference is the reason we don't allow things like that to happen in America.

 

[Spider-Bite]

Oh, so it's like I live my life with everything just there for me on a silver platter, courtesy of Big Brother...no thank you. I like hardships. I wouldn't go to the gym or go on adventures or study at school if I had no sense of delayed gratification. Pain is a good thing. Creativity, innovation, motivation, will power, pain tolerance all come from pain...

I would want opportunities for challenging goals to be there for the people. Otherwise life would be boring. Studying martial arts would give people the patience and the determination to not give up when the going gets tough. and martial arts is painful at times. accidents happen, and stretching can be very painful.

Ever heard of the "Skinner Box". Skinner thought much like you, if he took away all the slips and trips and scraps of the world (from his daughter) she would be completely sane. The result, she was socially inept, turned out all those "bad emotional episodes" we have as children actually are what turn us into mature, free thinking adults.

Almost every single person in our prison system was abused either sexually, physically, or mentally. Of course children will have good and bad days. That's life. The phychology class will help children not let them control them for the rest of their life.

All evidence shows that bigotry and tramatizing events in a child's life do the exact opposite of what your saying they do. I'm no more of a phychologist than I am an palenotologist, but I read and pay attention to what's going on in the world, and I know what I'm talking about.

Then that is their choice. You seriously think in my educational experience I haven't had to shed misconceptions or re-think my old indoctrinated positions on things to gain new perspective. If we let the Government decide for both people and parents what we need to know, that's bad. It takes away the ability for me to self-determine.

people need to be educated. people need to learn about the world. to suggest otherwise would be well, uneducated. We learn a lot of things that we never use in the real world, but we are educated about all of them so that we can make that choice about our life. Denying them that education would be to deny them the choice.

Yeah but then the Government who essentially is held in check by all those selfish, lazy, ignorant people's opinions and standards would be telling those people how to live. Defining what it means to be "happy" and "healthy". That means the Government could define itself, make Bush dictator because that's what would make you "happy and healthy", go to war with other nations because that's what would make you "happy and healthy", tax the sh** out of you because that is what is "good" for you.

Your post is a little contradictory. The goverment is held in check by the stupid voters, yet it's a dictatorship? I believe that open debate in a democracy is an important part of the path to enlightment, because eventually people realize the earth isn't flat.

I do thank you very much. But I lead by example, not by manipulation. Just today I got a 65 year old guy attempting pull ups just because I started to work out in front of him. I didn't coerce him, I just talked to him and my myself known, made myself heard and got an otherwise self admitted lazy guy to get geared up about working out. I did something without manipulating him.

You intentionally manipulated him. You admitted you intentionally made yourself known and heard. And it had a good result.

And the Government is now a bunch of geniuses...these the same geniuses who went to war on false pretexts. Yeah, I want them totally in charge of my education

Society makes mistakes. That doesn't mean we quit trying. And not only that but statistics show that the more educated a person is, the more likely they are to vote democrat. so yes education is important.