Utopia part 2- the end of poverty, crime, hopelessness, and depression

[Addendum]

It doesn't take a village to raise a child. It takes something called a parent.

 

[Abaddon]

Children still need better education.:heart:

 

[Addendum]

Why trust the government though

 

[Abaddon]

I am the government.:heart:

 

[Spider-Bite]

I am not saying that the Government could not control the Market - it could. But the end result would be a much more ineffective market.

I don't want it to completely control the market. If you want to invest, then go for it.

When the Government steps in and control prices and other market factors - hurts the market. This has been proven time after time in history. Eventually you get to a "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" type deal.

No it has not been proven. Remember the congressional investigation into the gas prices by Bill Clinton? did that hurt the maket? Or did gas prices go down right away because of the pressure? Your generalizing socialism, and that would be just as illogical as generalizing capitalism. I'm not a communist, I'm a socialist. I believe in promoting things when they need to be promoted.

There is a reason that the overwhelming majority of sociologists, economists, and historians are social democrats.

Why? The industry is motivated to create products that improve the lives of the people, and people benefit from that. The motives of the industry are irrelevant.

No. It's motivated by profit. They are two different things. When the tobacco company gradually, secretly increased the amount of nicoting by 70% in the last 15 years were they trying to improve the lives of the people or make more profit? Is government regulation needed here?

you are letting your idealogy control you. I don't believe what i believe because I'm liberal. I'm liberal because i believe what i believe. You oppose big government for the sake of opposing big government, whether it's good big or bad big.

What is your educational background. Sorry but if you have anything less than a masters in related-field, your "plan" means squat.

What's your education, that puts you in a position to judge my plan? You haven't even heard it, yet you oppose it for the sake of opposing big government. I don't have a masters in economics or anything, but all of my predictions about the Iraq war and the economy have come true.

Did you read my initial post...at all? The funding would come from the government.

Then what's the point?

The government already spends thousands of dollars a kid on public education - now though, instead of the government deciding which school that goes to, the parent would. Its a very simply concept...

And a horrible one that would divide this country and promote intolerance. people would segregate themselves education wise, by creed, color and values. Children would not be exposed to information and opportunities that they are now. Why does one child deserve more education than another child?

Again...the funding would come from the GOVERNMENT! The funding public schools now receive would simply instead go to the school the parent wants their child to go to.

Again. parents would segregate their children. It would create massive social problems over the next century. Some children would be taught by religous fanatics. When that person's gay child grows up to commit suicide because of their religous nutso parent will you claim responsiblity?

Don't you DARE start preaching to me about not knowing how the world and the economy works. I know all about hand-me-downs and Goodwill clothes. This plan would benefit the poor MORE than the rich.

You do not know what's it's like to be hopeless, living in despair, or how people are effected by their environement. And you do not know how the economy works. if you did, you would be in agreement with the overwhelming majority of economists and sociologists.

No, they won't. It is the crap schools that tend to actually cost more money per student. Many good private schools are much cheaper to run than the worst public schools.

I expect an explanation as to why they are cheaper? Is it because they don't spend the money the government does on research or developing guidlines? do they not spend the money on board meetings, which regulate them anyways? Is it because of the tax cuts they get? Is it because they don't pay their teachers as much money? And they don't. Is it because of donations? In that case it's still costing the people just as much money, they are just paying for it in a different form.

However again, the government would pay for whatever school a parent wants their child to go to (up to a point. Of course there would eventually have to be some limit to the government funding).

parents should not have a choice. I am happy to be an atheist. I would have been robbed of that had i been sent to a Christain school when I was too young to know better. I might not have been as comforting when my sister came out of the closet. imagine if she had been taught by her teachers that gays were sinners who will burn in hell. how would that have effected her?

I would like to think that their are enough families out there that want that that would support a school based around that concept.

There are enough families, but there are also enough families who would make your other statement obsolete.

If there is, then there are rules about facilities practicing hate-speech, which is exactly what that would be. So KKK Middle School would be closed down.

That one.

So we should be like China? YAY! Its not the Governments job to parent our kids bucko - it should NEVER be the Governments job. Your ideas simply become more and more scary the more you reveal.

I believe in Democracy, and the right to a fair trial. i am opposed to the death penalty, and chinese torture punishments, and beating children in school, which happens at private schools and chinese schools. I am very opposed to the chinese government. However they do prove that a socialist or communist government wont automatically go bankrupt. i am opposed to communism, but I'm very socialist. There is a difference.

Why not? It is a form of discipline. If it is the lax standards of civilization that is the problem, then should we not force our kids to wear respectable clothing and not saggy britches and gold chains?

Respectable to whom? Not everybody likes the same clothing. Your preaching bigotry here. They like their baggy pants just as much as you like your non baggy pants. It's called freedom and diversity.

The flaws of Socialism are inherit within the ideas them self. Socialism is an idealist philosophy that does not translate well into practice.

I have proven that it does translate well into practice when it's done right. look at NASA, the computer revolution, or Howard Dean's social programs implemented in Vermont. he turned their state deficit into a state surplus, got teen pregnancies down, graduation rates up, protected the environment all with social programs. And he did it without raising taxes. In fact he lowered them twice. All with social programs. And he also increased his state's number of jobs by 20%. And his success by six program lowered the number of children being molested in Vermoney by 50%.

There is good socialism and bad. If somebody has a good idea it should be implemented. It's stupid to oppose it just becaus it's socialism.

If everyone is equal, no matter what, then you completely take out the motivation to succeed.

I don't want everyone equal no matter what. And under this plan the motivation to succeed would be there. People don't want to sit and do nothing, but people get trapped into careers they hate because they need rent now and not later. If everyone was financially secure they would be freed to pursure goals and careers that offer fullfillment instead of money. This is why martial arts should be taught in school. to give people discipline, patience, and teach them about the rewards of hard work.

LOL, so he should be given money for contributing nothing to society?

In that day and age. yes. You fail to realize that someone else's happiness is never your misfortune. Why does his happiness bother you?

The citizens shouldn't be dependent on their governments - which is exactly what you are trying to do.

The eventual replacement of human beings by machines is inevitable. The human worker is going to become obsolete. Eventually people will work if they want to, and not because they have to. They should have the money there to attend school as long as they want, without having to pay it back. If they want to be trained as a dancer, than the money should be there to pay for that.

Why? to make society a happier place to live in. That is the bottom line.

Again - more and more scary.

Brilliant.

And I want a pony. The point is though that he made a mistake and he had to deal with the consequences of that mistake. It is not the governments job to make sure he lives a happy life - it is HIS responsibility.

It is our responsiblity to make all of our lives better. Better lives is not a bad thing. And better lives means better parents. It is my responsbility to do what i have to to make the future better than the present.

You do not want a higher quality of life, you want a system where we are dependent on our government. So did Hitler.

So I'm executing jews now huh? your being ridiculous. you really are.

I am all for change - as long as that change brings more freedom. This is not freedom. This is madness.

No it's not. This is freedom from financial burden, and opportunities that people don't have today.

Witty slogan's aside, you seem to be an idealistic kid that does not truly grasp the way the world works.

Your plan would do nothing but oppress society. Our way of life would be too heavily dependent on the government - that is dangerous.

I'm sorry but you come off as an idiot, with many claims that you can not explain, and way too much biased and generalization. You have no idea how the world works. Only an idiot would think that eventually this isn't going to happen. maybe not all of it, but eventually the human worker will be replaced. That much is inevitable. It's already started. Watch the science channel. All kinds of big busineesses are already investing in technology to replace their employees, and they have already begun replacing them. And the government has already begun taking their extra profit and giving it to the poor. I don't know how the world works? Everything I'm saying has already begun.
Y

ou see the rich as evil and the poor as victims. That is great if you do not want to actually look at the issues. The rich depend on a stable middle class - that is what keeps them rich.

Why is why the socialist party in America has done a better job of helping the economy. Consumer spending is the driving force of our economy. Not all of the rich are evil. Look at John kerry. Had he wont he presidencey, his own profits would have went down. It's called self sacrifice, and he was willing to pass those laws for the good of the country.
And also - good use of inaccurately facts (FTW!)

[/QUOTE]

so the poverty rate went up just like i said huh? I already knew that from this. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16077694/

 

[Spider-Bite]

It doesn't take a village to raise a child. It takes something called a parent.

that doesn't translate well into practice because there are too many horrible parents.

If you knew anything about phychology you wouldnt' be saying that. People are products of their environment, and not only their parents. They are products of the television, their peers, their teachers and everything around them.

The events in your life make you who you are. Society does raise people. I'd prefer it do a better job than it currently does.

 

[Addendum]

And the child's other adult family members (such as grandparents, an aunt or an uncle) could raise the child if the parent or parents are incompetent.

You don't send that kid to the neighbor next door who isn't a member of the child's family.

 

[Abaddon]

And the child's other adult family members (such as grandparents, an aunt or an uncle) could raise the child if the parent or parents are incompetent.

You don't send that kid to the neighbor next door who isn't a member of the child's family.

Not everyone has an extended family at their disposal.

 

[Spider-Bite]

And the child's other adult family members (such as grandparents, an aunt or an uncle) could raise the child if the parent or parents are incompetent.

because all the bad parents, including child molestors always do that.

And the child's other adult family members (such as grandparents, an aunt or an uncle) could raise the child if the parent or parents are incompetent.

HOw do you think that parentbecame a bad parent in the first place, most likely? So you want a bad parent to send his or her kids to his own bad parents?

You don't send that kid to the neighbor next door who isn't a member of the child's family.

If we can install discipline and an education in a child by sending them to school then we should do it. If we can give tax breaks to a youthcenter, then we should do it.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Society makes mistakes. That doesn't mean we quit trying. And not only that but statistics show that the more educated a person is, the more likely they are to vote democrat. so yes education is important.

That is THE most horrible reason I've heard on why education is important!

 

[Addendum]

Not everyone has an extended family at their disposal.

And so that means I should raise my neighbor's kid? No thanks

 

[Abaddon]

And so that means I should raise my neighbor's kid? No thanks

well no, you're example was dumb. I'm tired and I don't have time to explain it now, but I'm right and you're wrong. Or maybe we're both right, but I'm more right. Trust me.

 

[Addendum]

Trust me

Never.

Rule #30. A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go. from The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates

 

[Scarlet spidey]

You make it sound like I support a dictatorship or something. I merely want the government to do the right thing.

I do not trust the government which is why I support many checks and balances and limited secrecy. I feel there is too much secrecy right now.

Impossible.

 

[Kyalesyin]

Spider bite? Get outta the tree, shave the beard, wash off the patchouli and get a job.

 

[Hades]

This thread is funny.

 

[Spider-Bite]

That is THE most horrible reason I've heard on why education is important!

I only said that because people seem to be slightly gravitating towards making an anti-democracy or anti-government argument based on the election of Bush.

Even if higher education made people more likely to vote republican, I would still stupport more education.

However them being more likely to vote democrat is evidence that education is essential for a healthy democracy. Education makes voters less likely to support idiotic leadership.

 

[Spider-Bite]

Spider bite? Get outta the tree, shave the beard, wash off the patchouli and get a job.

I'm going to be a public finance economist for the government. I am going to be part of something that is larger than my own life, while I'm talking about the economy in the form of data reports, you'll still be here throwing out insults, telling people to get a job.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I would want opportunities for challenging goals to be there for the people. Otherwise life would be boring.

Yet you're creating a safety net and complusory education for everyone . That takes the challenge out of life. The potential of not having a job or being broke, both things I imagine you have yet to face, are FAR better motivators. If you honestly cannot find a reason to work hard in a capitalist society, you have serious problems.

Studying martial arts would give people the patience and the determination to not give up when the going gets tough.

Not necessarily. I know plenty of lazy ass martial artists.

and martial arts is painful at times. accidents happen, and stretching can be very painful.

Almost every single person in our prison system was abused either sexually, physically, or mentally. Of course children will have good and bad days. That's life. The phychology class will help children not let them control them for the rest of their life.

Just take the pills and it will make all the bad feelings go away huh?

No thanks. Quiet frankly there is nothing wrong with "childhood trauma", in fact usually he only ones who seem to think this haven't experienced any. I would never wish some of my life on my worst enemy, yet I cannot deny the clear benefits I got from it. Independence, strength, charisma, willpower all can come from very bad, very malcontentious events. You seem to forget that.

All evidence shows that bigotry and tramatizing events in a child's life do the exact opposite of what your saying they do.

Actually, you're wrong. Skinner proved the exact opposite, he thought by putting his daughter under his full guidence, away from ALL forms of trauma, she'd be the most sane of all of us. As I said she became socially inept, could not relate or interact with anyone in any way.

I'm no more of a phychologist than I am an palenotologist, but I read and pay attention to what's going on in the world, and I know what I'm talking about.

No you don't. I heard this drivel ten times better from Marx, and watched his plan fail...miserably. I've read and seen socialism fall into horrible dictatorships, almost feudal like existences time and again. For someone who pays "attention to the world" you make an awful lot of unwarrented assumptions and cannot see the forrest for the trees.

people need to be educated. people need to learn about the world. to suggest otherwise would be well, uneducated.

Okay, we've been doing that for 4000+ years I imagine. But if you are wise, a quality you lack in spades, you understand no one man, or group of men understand the "world" enough to be shouldered with the burden of teaching all of humanity.

We learn a lot of things that we never use in the real world, but we are educated about all of them so that we can make that choice about our life. Denying them that education would be to deny them the choice.

But no one here is, expect you. You want to deny them Christian Education, or Muslim Education, or Parental Education. You want a "one size fits all education" where everyone is spoon fed the same stuff day in and day out. I want choices, the choice to learn the way you want to learn. I don't expect my conservative Christian friends to sit through an hour long lecture of Biblical fallacy, I don't. That's their choice. They want to believe it literally, and that's okay...they HAVE A CHOICE.

You think religion is the root of all evil, seriously. Hitler based his thought process on reason and rational thought, as did Stalin (probably the most rational of all of them), so did Mousillini. Those men weren't religious.

Your post is a little contradictory. The goverment is held in check by the stupid voters, yet it's a dictatorship?

That's not contradictory at all. Can you imagine a vicious tyrant like King Henry staying in power very long if voters constanted wanted him to "lower taxes" and "give us more programs" and "improve my quality of life". I can't. People vote people like Bush, Jimmy Carter, and Gerald Ford out of office because of their own lazy, selfish desires. Bush(41) raises taxes after saying he wouldn't, gets the boot. Bush, perhaps, was a great leader, perhaps the tax hike was a great idea...however he will lose support because of voters; because they are self centered.

I believe that open debate in a democracy is an important part of the path to enlightment, because eventually people realize the earth isn't flat.

So basically you think debate is good because the right side always wins.

You're scary.

You intentionally manipulated him.

I did not say "do a pullup", and I would have been doing them whether or not we were standing next to each other. So, no, you'd be wrong (again)

You admitted you intentionally made yourself known and heard.

I talked about myself, and who I was, and had a normal conversation with NO INTENTION (perhaps you missed that part) of wanting him to or thinking he would attempt a pull up. I did not explain to him why pull ups were good, or how to do them, in fact we did not even talk about them. He was inspired by my action, which was separate, entirely, from our conversation.

Furthermore, it was HIS CHOICE, not mine. I did not corner him into an optionless corner....like your plan

And it had a good result.

1 out of 3 ain't bad.

Society makes mistakes. That doesn't mean we quit trying.

Who here is quitting. Me, not me. I just refuse to repeat the same mistakes of the past over and over again like I am beating a dead horse. Big Government, no thank you...most of us here actually have some knowledge of what that can do.

And not only that but statistics show that the more educated a person is, the more likely they are to vote democrat. so yes education is important.

So it's more important to be a Democrat . Wow, even as a Democrat I find that incredibly offensive...wow, I'm impressed. That's a new low.

Are we talking "tax and spend" Democrats, Clintonian Democrats, Jeffersonian Democrats, or maybe "State's Rights Democrats"...because Democrats aren't some single unit group who never disagree on anything.

This country, over time, will get more liberal. One day we'll be marrying gays just not those dang-blasted AI Robots or aliens...marriage will be between a human and human dammnit. However we'll still split into camps over new issues, whether we are all Democrat or Republican. Remember there was a time when Democrats were racist, dixie flag waving Nazis...put that in perspective too.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

HAHAHaHaHa

Spider-Bite's idea that machines will do all the work is hilarious.

I would love to see the future where technology is so advanced that it's cheaper for the owner of a small store to purchase a robot so sophisticated that it can plunge a toilet, locate grafitti and remove it, dust the fine china without breaking it, etc. than it is to pay an illegal immigrant to come and perform those tasks. lol


Look how advanced we are now, and we just barely got robots that can walk without falling over...and it only takes millions and millions of dollars to make ONE of them.

And I don't know about everyone else, but my electronic stuff breaks down and needs maintenance all the time. It's often pathetically tempermental and fragile.
So who's going to maintain and repair all the machines that are doing all the work? Other robots?
I guess that would make an eternal inverse pyramid of automated maintenance heirarchies.

aHaHaHaHaHa

People are going to get to the point where they'd rather have a ROBOT as a gynecologist?!?
And it'll be CHEAPER to buy a robot that can poke around those sensitive lady-parts than it'd be to pay a chick to do it?

And All this within the next CENTURY?!?


Like Darthphere, I NEED some of what S-B's smoking!

 

[Erzengel]

People are going to get to the point where they'd rather have a ROBOT as a gynecologist?!?

Oh Wilhelm. You are so far off.

 

[Addendum]

I only said that because people seem to be slightly gravitating towards making an anti-democracy or anti-government argument based on the election of Bush.

My skepticism and cynicism of government started in 1989.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

HAHAHaHaHa

Spider-Bite's idea that machines will do all the work is hilarious.

I would love to see the future where technology is so advanced that it's cheaper for the owner of a small store to purchase a robot so sophisticated that it can plunge a toilet, locate grafitti and remove it, dust the fine china without breaking it, etc. than it is to pay an illegal immigrant to come and perform those tasks. lol

It probably will be, one day, in the far off future. I mean there is already talk in most factories of total mechanization because, in fact, it IS cheaper.

I mean you have to pay a Immigrant at least minimum wage, which amounts to (we'll say) 6 bucks an hour. Whereas a Machine would need maybe a 100,000 up front, plus an estimated 5-6,000 of maintence fees over a ten year period, plus the cost of fuel (but you can imagine most of them would be electric). So you're looking at about a 10,600 dollar a year "salary" for that machine.

Now, the capabilities you are talking about are far off, but yes...Machines will be cheaper than illegal immigrants, they already are...it's just that we aren't totally mechanized.

I agree overall though...Spider-Bite is nuts and or smoking something (maybe both).

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I only see a golden frog but I'm sure it was funny.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

It probably will be, one day, in the far off future. I mean there is already talk in most factories of total mechanization because, in fact, it IS cheaper.

I mean you have to pay a Immigrant at least minimum wage, which amounts to (we'll say) 6 bucks an hour. Whereas a Machine would need maybe a 100,000 up front, plus an estimated 5-6,000 of maintence fees over a ten year period, plus the cost of fuel (but you can imagine most of them would be electric). So you're looking at about a 10,600 dollar a year "salary" for that machine.

Now, the capabilities you are talking about are far off, but yes...Machines will be cheaper than illegal immigrants, they already are...it's just that we aren't totally mechanized.

I agree overall though...Spider-Bite is nuts and or smoking something (maybe both).

No, he said ALL jobs will be gone.
That's why I brought up gynecology.
Sorry, even in a thousand years, If a clinic said, "Attention valued patients. From now on all exams will be performed by robutts.", women would not say, "KeWL! RObots!"
They will always prefer the warmth and demeanor of good old, trusted Dr. O'Keefe or whoever, and they'd never go along with robots.
This is true of many services.
A working single mother is not going to trust a box of wonky transistors and chips to care for her beloved baby while she's at work.
I could go on and on.

McDonald's operates over 31,000 restaurants worldwide, employing more than 1.5 million people. While technically, a human workforce is a bottomless money-hole and a robot would eventually pay for itself, after which point there would only be the expense of the maintenance, which would only be a fraction of what's spent on humans...as I said, we just barely have robots now that can walk without falling over.
I've watched quite a few documentaries on robotics and most of the big names bemoan the pathetic state of robotics.

So a robot that can move and recognize objects costs millions to produce....and they still are nowhere near being able to adapt to situations, like, say, an unruly, threatening schizophrenic homeless man coming into the restaurant and starting to take a leak on the floor while yelling at other patrons.

So they'd require the most sophisticated robot on Earth to replace the service-oriented staff members at each McDonalds (of course assembling sandwiches is more doable, like the robots that assemble cars, etc.)

Now multiply that by 1.5 million.
Ree-DICK-ulous.
And even then, you're not going to have robot MANAGERS.

If there's ever going to be a time where ALL jobs are taken by automatons, it's so far in the future that it's absurd for us to even mention it, like 20 or 30 thousand years away, and even still, humans will always desire and pay for authentic human service.