Are we really any different from sports fanatics?

[RockSP]

Yes but I think people have more respect for realistic fantasies.

That eliminates James Bond, then.

 

[Hobgoblin]

That eliminates James Bond, then.

Yes, but there is a difference between a secret agent traveling the world doing secret government stuff (granted the fight scenes and villains are impossible, depending on the Bond movie in question) and traveling to distant worlds to save the universe.

How much suspension of disbelief is needed seems to be the question.

 

[BlackLantern]

BUt why? Who set this rule? And why can noone seem to see the hypocrisy that lies beneath it?

because no one cares...its called convenient hypocrisy

Women give us flak for our "obsession" while following the exploits of soap opera characters just as religiously. We get taunted by wrestling fans, which makes absolutely zero sense to me. And what about the guys who faithfully play sports video games? And another thing I find funny is that many seem to pick and choose which ones are ok to follow. Back in '93 I got so much flak for wearing a Spider-Man t-shirt by people who thought nothing of someone sporting Batman. Why id that? Because one was in movies at the time and the other wasn't? Nevermind the fact that many of the "cool" people are in line right beside us "geeks" on opening day, waiting to see the same movies.

yes...because Batman had become socially acceptable for that time period

again, convenient hypocrisy and its an argument no one really wants to have or think is worth having

 

[Hobgoblin]

^This.

 

[Heretic]

My answer to both these questions are Brett Favre and Muhammad Ali. The media empires those people presided over make Marvel and DC look like a local pizza shop. They're accomplishments are farther reaching, Muhammad Ali is a far larger international icon than either Superman or Art Spiegelman.

Did you also really just compare Lance Armstrong to Michael Turner. Go get photos of both those people and take an informal poll on the street, you're argument would lose in a heartbeat, sorry.

And no one worships comic creators with the same reverence the comic fan community has for the characters, in fact we tend to berate the creators for getting things wrong.

Yes...people place athletes on such an incredibly high pedestal...that even if their accomplishments aren't anything special EXCEPT in sports people place a huge imagined importance on it.

THATS MY POINT. SPORTS FANS ARE WORSE.

Great athletes inspire other people to try to be good at a sport...Superman inspires people throughout their lives in sometimes imperceptible ways.

Sports fans are SO delusional and SO nerdy that they ACTUALLY BELIEVE that being good at sports makes someone more important.

You're doing nothing but proving my point.

 

[BlackLantern]

Superman inspires comic book nerds....that's really about it

some poor kids in the ghetto can fashion a soccer ball together out of random material and play a game that makes them forget about the ****** lean to they lve in

Im not about putting athletes up on a pedastal, but sports themselves can motivate and inspire

moreso than an imaginary man in tights and a cape

 

[Heretic]

Superman inspires comic book nerds....that's really about it

some poor kids in the ghetto can fashion a soccer ball together out of random material and play a game that makes them forget about the ****** lean to they lve in

Im not about putting athletes up on a pedastal, but sports themselves can motivate and inspire

moreso than an imaginary man in tights and a cape

Again...busted logic...

Compare an ATHLETE to a CREATOR
Compare a COMIC CREATION to a SPORTS STAT

Plus...I love how it's ALL ATHLETES in ALL SPORTS...vs only COMIC CREATORS.

See, that is rigged...and everyone can see that.

If you are going to compare ALL ATHLETES...you MUST then use ALL ARTISTS...

Out of the millions and millions and...ridiculous millions of athletes the world has ever produced...yeah, you can cherry pick a small handful as being awesome and inspiring...and there have only been (in comparison) a tiny select few comic artists...so it's rigged.

Plus...why are we leaving out the BAD that has come from sports? People are killed because of sporting events...riots have destroyed cities because of sports...yet comics just get read and placed in a box.

Lance Armstrong (NOT HIS CAREER...ONLY THE MAN) has NOT lived a more inspirational life than Harvey Pekar. Again...it is sports fans who INSIST on using the lives on the creators...and Lance Arnstrong...aside from being a great bicyclist...hasn't he had a bunch of controversies over drug use...weird stuff involving bags of blood at his apartment and stuff??? Didn't he leave his wife for another woman????

Does anyone know of famous comic creators who have been convicted of torturing dogs? Maybe raping beauty pageant contestants???

You're cherry picking a few examples out of untold millions...well, so can I.

Athletes have caused FAR more damage to the world than comic creators...and sports have caused far more loss of life and destruction than comics...

The fact that people are more inspired by a convict who's good at sports over Art Spiegleman, who's life SHOULD be a tremendous inspiration to us all...that is a reflection on how pathetic our society has become and how ignorant sports fans are.

 

[BlackLantern]

I just said in my previous posts that its the sport itself that motivates and inspires, not the athletes

 

[Heretic]

And I don't see how an athlete really inspires much of anything beyond "I want to play basketball like that guy". Comic books and super heroes have inspired people to do all sorts of things...things that actually matter...and NO, being a great athlete doesn't matter in the grand scope of things.

 

[BlackLantern]

If I had to pick one fandom, im picking sports. Harvey pekar just isn't that important to me.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

And I don't see how an athlete really inspires much of anything beyond "I want to play basketball like that guy". Comic books and super heroes have inspired people to do all sorts of things...things that actually matter...and NO, being a great athlete doesn't matter in the grand scope of things.

First of all, the entire premise of this post is ridiculous. Lou Gerrig didn't inspire people to do something with there lives that wasn't Baseball related? Ronnie Lott didn't inspire toughness when he chopped off his own finger to keep playing Safety in a game? Tom Brady doesn't inspire anyone to be a better leader (cause he does for me)?

Comic Book superheroes inspire comic nerds, that's really about it. It's hard for me to be impressed by the personality and accomplishments of someone who doesn't exist. Whereas athletes are normal yet extraordinary real people who grow and mature like the rest of us, comic characters are just cartoons, perhaps moral ones, but cartoons none the less. Furthermore comic book characters can be made to be whatever you, or the writer, wants them to be. Take Batman for example, any attempt to replicate Batman's personality and accomplishments in real life, or if you approached problems in the fashion that he did, you'd probably fail miserably at life.

Superheroes are 'nerd fantasies' come to life. What does Green Lantern inspire? That if you wait around long enough while your life goes to sh** eventually some alien will give you a ring that'll take all your problems away? Batman lives a carefree existence in his cave, safe from the actual physical dilemas he would face if he were to attempt to replicate that stunt in the real world. Cyclops and the X-Men live in a mansion they seem to never have to pay for. Yet this kind of divine providence is exactly what appeals to nerds. That's why comics are pure escapism. They take you too a very idealized world, filled with highly idealized people, most of whom act out male fantasies in the name of 'heroics'.

Tom Brady, Michael Jordon and Dustin Pedroia; those guys actually worked hard to get where they were, whereas comic characters merely were written to be that way. They have actual accomplishments, your heroes do not.

 

[Chris Wallace]

because no one cares...its called convenient hypocrisy




yes...because Batman had become socially acceptable for that time period

again, convenient hypocrisy and its an argument no one really wants to have or think is worth having

I like that term. "Convenient hypocrisy". That's very fitting.

 

[Chris Wallace]

And I don't see how an athlete really inspires much of anything beyond "I want to play basketball like that guy". Comic books and super heroes have inspired people to do all sorts of things...things that actually matter...and NO, being a great athlete doesn't matter in the grand scope of things.

I'm not going to support that one. That's like saying that actors and musicians can't inspire people to do anything but sing or act. Or a politician can only inspire you to run for office. And that is bull. Anyone can be inspiring, depending on what they do with the opportunites or challenges they're given. And the ability of a comic book to inspire greatness is debatable. Sure, superheroes are used to teach lessons, but most commonly to kids, which hurts our argument. But they can just as easily inspire acts of colossal stupidity and many would argue that this is ALL they can do. (Thank you, Phoenix Jones.) But you can get inspiration from anywhere if you're open to it.

 

[Heretic]

First of all, the entire premise of this post is ridiculous. Lou Gerrig didn't inspire people to do something with there lives that wasn't Baseball related? Ronnie Lott didn't inspire toughness when he chopped off his own finger to keep playing Safety in a game? Tom Brady doesn't inspire anyone to be a better leader (cause he does for me)?

Comic Book superheroes inspire comic nerds, that's really about it. It's hard for me to be impressed by the personality and accomplishments of someone who doesn't exist. Whereas athletes are normal yet extraordinary real people who grow and mature like the rest of us, comic characters are just cartoons, perhaps moral ones, but cartoons none the less. Furthermore comic book characters can be made to be whatever you, or the writer, wants them to be. Take Batman for example, any attempt to replicate Batman's personality and accomplishments in real life, or if you approached problems in the fashion that he did, you'd probably fail miserably at life.

Superheroes are 'nerd fantasies' come to life. What does Green Lantern inspire? That if you wait around long enough while your life goes to sh** eventually some alien will give you a ring that'll take all your problems away? Batman lives a carefree existence in his cave, safe from the actual physical dilemas he would face if he were to attempt to replicate that stunt in the real world. Cyclops and the X-Men live in a mansion they seem to never have to pay for. Yet this kind of divine providence is exactly what appeals to nerds. That's why comics are pure escapism. They take you too a very idealized world, filled with highly idealized people, most of whom act out male fantasies in the name of 'heroics'.

Tom Brady, Michael Jordon and Dustin Pedroia; those guys actually worked hard to get where they were, whereas comic characters merely were written to be that way. They have actual accomplishments, your heroes do not.

Once again...understand this...

You are comparing the REAL LIFE...NOT THE CAREER of athletes...with the WORK OUTPUT...NOT THE REAL LIFE...of artists.

You are rigging the comparison.

I'm sick of explaining this...

Saying "This guy overcame cancer" has NOTHING to do with his work.
Saying "superheroes arent real" has NOTHING to do with the creator's life and personal struggles.

The fact is that you sports nerds are so deluded into thinking that sports has actual value that you CANT accept a fair comparison...because sports nerds are worse than comic nerds!!!

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Once again...understand this...

You are comparing the REAL LIFE...NOT THE CAREER of athletes...with the WORK OUTPUT...NOT THE REAL LIFE...of artists.

You are rigging the comparison.

Yes, I absolutely am because you keep erecting this straw man argument. I'm comparing what comic fans obsess over, fictional superheroes, to what sports fans obsess over, actual people. You keep bringing up artists and writers as if their cultural relevance and fans are as fanatically devoted to them as sports fans are. How many Harvey Pekar T-Shirts do comic companies sell? How many Jack Kirby T-Shirts are there? Maybe a few, but their status as writers and artists pales in comparison to what the fans really obsess over: the characters.

I'm sick of explaining this...

Saying "This guy overcame cancer" has NOTHING to do with his work.
Saying "superheroes arent real" has NOTHING to do with the creator's life and personal struggles.

I doubt you could name the personal struggles of 1/20th of the writers and artists who work on the comics you read, but I bet you could rattle off personal facts about hundreds upon hundreds of comic characters. Stop acting like comic fans are really discriminatory literary and art critics.

The fact is that you sports nerds are so deluded into thinking that sports has actual value that you CANT accept a fair comparison...because sports nerds are worse than comic nerds!!!

SPORTS DO HAVE ACTUAL VALUE. Go ask any College, High School or University, go ask any city planner, go ask any mayor or Governor about the impact of sports on their school or community. Your cities don't spend millions of dollars to invest in a comic book club. Sports are a profoundly influential in ways comics can't even dream of being.

 

[BlackLantern]

I like that term. "Convenient hypocrisy". That's very fitting.

Its something, IMO, affects a lot of peoples opinions as it relates to comics, sports, entertainment....like someone **** talks an artist or writer for years and then is kissing their feet because they started writing a particular character

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I'd say if your going to compare fandom as it relates to comic writers and comic artists, you're closest comparison would be to how much fandom there is in sports towards GMs, perhaps defensive coordinators or other higher ups.

 

[Heretic]

Yes, I absolutely am because you keep erecting this straw man argument. I'm comparing what comic fans obsess over, fictional superheroes, to what sports fans obsess over, actual people. You keep bringing up artists and writers as if their cultural relevance and fans are as fanatically devoted to them as sports fans are. How many Harvey Pekar T-Shirts do comic companies sell? How many Jack Kirby T-Shirts are there? Maybe a few, but their status as writers and artists pales in comparison to what the fans really obsess over: the characters.

I doubt you could name the personal struggles of 1/20th of the writers and artists who work on the comics you read, but I bet you could rattle off personal facts about hundreds upon hundreds of comic characters. Stop acting like comic fans are really discriminatory literary and art critics.


SPORTS DO HAVE ACTUAL VALUE. Go ask any College, High School or University, go ask any city planner, go ask any mayor or Governor about the impact of sports on their school or community. Your cities don't spend millions of dollars to invest in a comic book club. Sports are a profoundly influential in ways comics can't even dream of being.

First: Sports fans do not obsess over people. They obsess over their talent. Are their millions of people obsessing over guys who tried out for arena football but werent good enough? No...it is their SKILL...their statistics...that make them interesting.

And you're right...sports revenue brutally eclipses comic revenue...

You know why???

Because people have convinced themselves that sports are a worthwhile obsession...that it's "cool" to know every detail about the third baseman's minor league career.

In fact...it is a mass delusion...sports are ONLY impactful on society because people have invented a worth that simply is not there.

At least comic fans KNOW that comics are dorky. Sports fans are deluded into thinking that home runs somehow save the planet.

 

[terry78]

In a nutshell, it's because someone is actually doing something of a physical nature that requires them to be better than the average person at it. That is why it gets a pass. Creating games and stories better than the average guy is a feat unto itself, but seeing somebody actually be superior from a physical standpoint...you know how it is.

 

[BlackLantern]

First: Sports fans do not obsess over people. They obsess over their talent. Are their millions of people obsessing over guys who tried out for arena football but werent good enough? No...it is their SKILL...their statistics...that make them interesting.

And you're right...sports revenue brutally eclipses comic revenue...

You know why???

Because people have convinced themselves that sports are a worthwhile obsession...that it's "cool" to know every detail about the third baseman's minor league career.

In fact...it is a mass delusion...sports are ONLY impactful on society because people have invented a worth that simply is not there.

At least comic fans KNOW that comics are dorky. Sports fans are deluded into thinking that home runs somehow save the planet.

who are you to say what is a worthwhile obsession and what isn't?

I get the point you're trying to make...but to say sports offers ZERO value while putting comics up on the perfect pedestal is a bit heavy handed....granted actual art (Im partial to Van Gogh myself) can motivate and inspire just as much as sports

 

[Heretic]

who are you to say what is a worthwhile obsession and what isn't?

I get the point you're trying to make...but to say sports offers ZERO value while putting comics up on the perfect pedestal is a bit heavy handed....granted actual art (Im partial to Van Gogh myself) can motivate and inspire just as much as sports

NONE of these obsessions are worthwhile. That is my point.

The difference is that comic geeks don't think that their obsession is cool or life changing...while sports fans DO think that their obsession is cool and life changing...therefore sports fans are bigger dorks.

 

[E-Man]

I'm going to repeat what I said in the other thread about this subject last year. I love sports, comics, sci-fi tv shows, movies, and all sorts of so called "conflicting" stuff. Sucks to be the people who keep separating themselves. I watched two playoff basketball games last night, then came home and read the new Thunderbolts. I am obviously cooler than a polar bear fight.

 

[BlackLantern]

indeed...im with you, E-Man....

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

First: Sports fans do not obsess over people. They obsess over their talent. Are their millions of people obsessing over guys who tried out for arena football but werent good enough? No...it is their SKILL...their statistics...that make them interesting.

Of course they obsess over people, don't be ridiculous. I own like six Tom Brady jerseys.

And you're right...sports revenue brutally eclipses comic revenue...

You know why???

Because people have convinced themselves that sports are a worthwhile obsession...that it's "cool" to know every detail about the third baseman's minor league career.

Sports are a very worthwhile pursuit. There an excellent way to socialize, learn a skill, and work with a team. Quite frankly if you don't understand the benefits of joining, interacting with or being a part of a team sport I probably would find you a little odd.

In fact...it is a mass delusion...sports are ONLY impactful on society because people have invented a worth that simply is not there.

That's a stretch. Sports are not a conspiracy forced upon us by a shadowy cabal. They've been around as long as humans have been recording history, maybe longer. Even other primates seem to indulge in activities similar to what we call "sports". It's not a mass delusion. Thinking you can dress like a bat and fight crime, now that would be a delusion.

At least comic fans KNOW that comics are dorky. Sports fans are deluded into thinking that home runs somehow save the planet.

Sports, unlike comics, as I've explained to you a half a dozen times, do have a tangible impact. You just admitted it yourself, sports revenue "brutally eclipses" comic books. One home run, perhaps the right home run, in Detriot could be a huge economic boost to that city. Often times when sports teams get hot, it can really help their cities economy, as the increase in revenue from mechandise and ticket sales has a very tangible impact. Fenway Park sells out 110% capacity since the 2004 World Series, in addition, for many games they rent out movie theaters they also fill to capacity and hand out concessions inside the theater while people watch the games. There are 162 regular season games; you do the math. This isn't money spread out over the country either, it has a direct impact on that area.

Also, between comics and sports, I choose sports. Quite frankly a lack of team sports in a developing child's life is a crime against humanity. Team sports teach lessons you simply cannot learn from a comic. It's one thing to read about an imaginary man in a bat-costume, it's another thing to go through a trail by fire, and to learn about yourself one epic win or one soul-crushing loss at a time. Reading about an incredible hero, particularly one that doesn't exist, is something I'm wary of. I believe it can warp you as a person if your not careful. Batman teaches a lot of good lessons, but he teaches a lot of sh***y ones as well. Such as beating the sh** out of criminals is a good deterent to crime and an appropriate way to dole out justice. Neither of those things are appropriate lessons to be teaching. So while comics may be fun escapist literature, they're not to be taken seriously, as they are merely comics.

No one imbued Tom Brady with a power ring. Dustin Pedroia wasn't bitten by a radioactive spider. Kevin Garnet wasn't 'born a mutant'. These people weren't saved by the divine providence found in comics, and while they have character flaws just like every other human, they are the epitome of hard work. I'd be hard pressed to come up with reasons not to seriously pursue athletics as long as you are able (outside of injury). All of them worked hard, and with or without performance enhancement they show what real results you can get from real hard work and real dedication.

Batman, at it's core, is a complete fantasy not to be taken seriously. Whether you can draw morals from him or not is pretty irrelevant because you have to be smart enough to discern fact from fiction. While I have a certain place in my heart for comics, they don't have the best track record for breeding stable individuals. The basement dweller stereotype is not unearned, while it may not be true for every individual.

 

[RockSP]

NONE of these obsessions are worthwhile. That is my point.

The difference is that comic geeks don't think that their obsession is cool or life changing...while sports fans DO think that their obsession is cool and life changing...therefore sports fans are bigger dorks.

I think everybody thinks what they are a fan of is cool. I can't speak on the obsession thing, though. I like comics but I'm not obsessed with them. There are sports that I like but again no obsession. As for their worth, that goes back to the earlier talk of frivolity. You haven't magically somehow accomplished something by watching a football game anymore than you have by reading a comic. The end result of both is entertainment.