Are your Civil Liberties Under Attack? Discussion

[Kelly]

Wow........whelp, someone will be losing their job over that one.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Wow........whelp, someone will be losing their job over that one.

Probably not. They'll likely be told, "Oh well. Close enough for government work," and then get a promotion.

 

[Kelly]

Probably not. They'll likely be told, "Oh well. Close enough for government work," and then get a promotion.

Haaa..... probably true.

 

[Ant-manic]

Why is avoiding unfair proscecution considered cowardly?

Are political dissidents who seek asylum in other countries cowardly?

this is what not being a coward looks like.

as taken from wiki...

In 1964, Ali failed the U.S. Armed Forces qualifying test because his writing and spelling skills were sub-par. However, in early 1966, the tests were revised and Ali was reclassified as 1A.[6] This classification meant he was now eligible for the draft and induction into the U.S. Army during a time when the United States was involved in the Vietnam War. When notified of this status, he declared that he would refuse to serve in the United States Army and publicly considered himself a conscientious objector.[6] Ali stated: "War is against the teachings of the Holy Qur'an. I'm not trying to dodge the draft. We are not supposed to take part in no wars unless declared by Allah or The Messenger. We don't take part in Christian wars or wars of any unbelievers." He famously said in 1966: "I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Congs..."
Widespread protests against the Vietnam War had not yet begun, but with that one phrase, Ali articulated the reason to oppose the war for a generation of young Americans, and his words served as a touchstone for the racial and antiwar upheavals that would rock the 1960s. Ali's example inspired Martin Luther King, Jr. – who had been reluctant to alienate the Johnson Administration and its support of the civil rights agenda – to voice his own opposition to the war for the first time.[64]
Rare for a heavyweight boxing champion in those days, Ali spoke at Howard University, where he gave his popular "Black Is Best" speech to 4,000 cheering students and community intellectuals after he was invited to speak by sociology professor Nathan Hare on behalf of the Black Power Committee, a student protest group.[65][66]
Appearing shortly thereafter for his scheduled induction into the U.S. Armed Forces on April 28, 1967 in Houston, he refused three times to step forward at the call of his name. An officer warned him he was committing a felony punishable by five years in prison and a fine of $10,000. Once more, Ali refused to budge when his name was called. As a result, he was arrested and on the same day the New York State Athletic Commission suspended his boxing license and stripped him of his title. Other boxing commissions followed suit. Ali would not be able to obtain a license to box in any state for over three years.[67

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

this is what not being a coward looks like.

as taken from wiki...

In 1964, Ali failed the U.S. Armed Forces qualifying test because his writing and spelling skills were sub-par. However, in early 1966, the tests were revised and Ali was reclassified as 1A.[6] This classification meant he was now eligible for the draft and induction into the U.S. Army during a time when the United States was involved in the Vietnam War. When notified of this status, he declared that he would refuse to serve in the United States Army and publicly considered himself a conscientious objector.[6] Ali stated: "War is against the teachings of the Holy Qur'an. I'm not trying to dodge the draft. We are not supposed to take part in no wars unless declared by Allah or The Messenger. We don't take part in Christian wars or wars of any unbelievers." He famously said in 1966: "I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Congs..."
Widespread protests against the Vietnam War had not yet begun, but with that one phrase, Ali articulated the reason to oppose the war for a generation of young Americans, and his words served as a touchstone for the racial and antiwar upheavals that would rock the 1960s. Ali's example inspired Martin Luther King, Jr. – who had been reluctant to alienate the Johnson Administration and its support of the civil rights agenda – to voice his own opposition to the war for the first time.[64]
Rare for a heavyweight boxing champion in those days, Ali spoke at Howard University, where he gave his popular "Black Is Best" speech to 4,000 cheering students and community intellectuals after he was invited to speak by sociology professor Nathan Hare on behalf of the Black Power Committee, a student protest group.[65][66]
Appearing shortly thereafter for his scheduled induction into the U.S. Armed Forces on April 28, 1967 in Houston, he refused three times to step forward at the call of his name. An officer warned him he was committing a felony punishable by five years in prison and a fine of $10,000. Once more, Ali refused to budge when his name was called. As a result, he was arrested and on the same day the New York State Athletic Commission suspended his boxing license and stripped him of his title. Other boxing commissions followed suit. Ali would not be able to obtain a license to box in any state for over three years.[67

So you ARE saying political dissidents who seek asylum in other countries are cowards?

Muhammad Ali was brave, no doubt about it. But he was facing 5 years, not 30+ years.

 

[Ant-manic]

So you ARE saying political dissidents who seek asylum in other countries are cowards?

Muhammad Ali was brave, no doubt about it. But he was facing 5 years, not 30+ years.

they were planning to take away his livelihood.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

they were planning to take away his livelihood.

That sucks and everything but 30 years in prison is 40-50% of your life span.

 

[Ant-manic]

That sucks and everything but 30 years in prison is 40-50% of your life span.

i could rattle off political dissidents of the past that faced death and/or injury head-on. if Snowden's cause was just we would already know what he knows about how evil and corrupt the government is. he wouldn't have needed to run. he strikes me as a weasel. and i believe he did this for his 15 minutes of fame. the dropout saw this as his chance to be a big man. but he didn't quite have the guts to handle the consequences.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

i could rattle off political dissidents of the past that faced death and/or injury head-on. if Snowden's cause was just we would already know what he knows about how evil and corrupt the government is. he wouldn't have needed to run. he strikes me as a weasel. and i believe he did this for his 15 minutes of fame. the dropout saw this as his chance to be a big man. but he didn't quite have the guts to handle the consequences.

Anyone who exposes the biggest case of domestic spying abuse in American history is a hero and patriot even if they alledgedly did it for narcissism or fame.

While Snowden's motivations are endlessly debateable you know what isn't debateable? The fact that spying on hundreds of millions of Americans by omnipotent spy agencies with zero public oversight is downright Orwellian.

But lets not worry about that. Let's just go in circles finding new ways to shoot the messenger.

 

[Ant-manic]

Anyone who exposes the biggest case of domestic spying abuse in American history is a hero and patriot even if they alledgedly did it for narcissism or fame.

you act as if they were 'disappearing' people who said negative things about Obama. they were looking for potential terrorists. it's kind of their job. were you planning on bombing some parade-goers? i just don't get why you're so upset over this.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

you act as if they were 'disappearing' people who said negative things about Obama. they were looking for potential terrorists. it's kind of their job. were you planning on bombing some parade-goers? i just don't get why you're so upset over this.

I do take my right to privacy seriously. And I do question the motives of those who use a few jihadist as an excuse to spy on all Americans.

Just because I do doesn't make me a terrorist.

I hope you're doing some form of satire right now.

But I know you're not joking and it saddens me that civil liberties is such a foreign concept and low priority to so many.

 

[Ant-manic]

I do take my right to privacy seriously. And I do question the motives of those who use a few jihadist as an excuse to spy on all Americans.

is there a better way to keep track of the terrorists? or is it better to just not prepare for them? it's not like our foreign policy is going to change in a way that makes us less of a target. we could close our borders. but we'd still be at the mercy of domestic terrorists...and hackers.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

is there a better way to keep track of the terrorists? or is it better to just not prepare for them? it's not like our foreign policy is going to change in a way that makes us less of a target. we could close our borders. but we'd still be at the mercy of domestic terrorists...and hackers.

The only thing to fear is fear itself.

The odds of dying in a terrorist attack are 20 million to one.

Do you actually believe the government spying on everyone keeps you much safer? Don't you find it the least bit unnerving that the NSA might spy on everyone including the president and have no public oversight?

 

[redhawk23]

Why is avoiding unfair proscecution considered cowardly?

Are political dissidents who seek asylum in other countries cowardly?

Our government protects criminals who snitch on other criminals but targets patriots who inform the public about war crimes and civil liberty abuses for lengthy jail sentences.

Why would anyone surrender to such hypocrisy? He deserves a medal of freedom, not a 30 year stint in darkened, secret prison. If he was guaranteed an open and fair trial that's one thing but he'll just get quickly locked away for decades like Bradley Manning.

What's the point of that? It sends the wrong message to potential whistleblower/patriots.

Is prosecution unfair when you break laws, even when you believe that you had good reason to do so?

 

[Marx]

REPORT: SNOWDEN APPLIED FOR ASYLUM IN RUSSIA
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/01/politics/snowden-asylum/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

 

[Thundercrack85]

So just to recap, this guy turned on America for violating the privacy of its citizens... and then he moves to Russia?

Makes sense. Where's this guy going to move to when he exposes Russia's mass surveillance? North Korea?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Yeah lets all continue to shoot the messenger.

and slowly everyone will forgive and forget what was uncovered.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Is prosecution unfair when you break laws, even when you believe that you had good reason to do so?

It's a public duty to disobey unjust laws whether the unjust law is a taxation without representation, segregation, against interracial marriage, or against sharing vital information with the public.

Sometimes laws need to be broken for progress.

 

[Kelly]

It's a public duty to disobey unjust laws whether the unjust law is a taxation without representation, segregation, against interracial marriage, or against sharing vital information with the public.

Sometimes laws need to be broken for progress.

Thank you Martin Luther King... ; )

BIIIIIIIIG difference here.....

MLK was willing to do that in a peaceful manner, AND he was willing to take the consequences for breaking those laws. He didn't run...THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE between how he took on segregation and other Human Rights issues.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Yeah lets all continue to shoot the messenger.

and slowly everyone will forgive and forget what was uncovered.

Maybe if the messenger stopped destroying his own credibility... we could focus on what he uncovered.

 

[terry78]

It seems a little iffy. He's not Ghandi or anything, he's a ****ing nerd. Like us.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I don't know if I hate Snowden because he makes the story about him rather than the actual leak, or because the media only seems to have one photo of him in existence and I'm tired of seeing it every time I go to CNN's homepage. But I don't like him and it doesn't have to do with my feelings about secrecy, the NSA or treason. It's just a combination of being quite sick of what's really a boring story (last week a front-page article was that he was NOT on a flight to Cuba) and that he's a bit of a shameless self-promoting braggart.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Thank you Martin Luther King... ; )

BIIIIIIIIG difference here.....

MLK was willing to do that in a peaceful manner, AND he was willing to take the consequences for breaking those laws. He didn't run...THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE between how he took on segregation and other Human Rights issues.

You avoided my other examples.

Did those who did the Boston Tea Party turn themselves in to British authorities?

Was MLK facing 30+ years in prison?

and what did Snowden do that was violent?

How did getting caught help Bradley Manning's cause?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Maybe if the messenger stopped destroying his own credibility... we could focus on what he uncovered.

We can focus on whatever we please.

Snowden isn't physically forcing us to focus on his flaws and weaknesses.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

We can focus on whatever we please.

Snowden isn't physically forcing us to focus on his flaws and weaknesses.

Neither is Kim Kardashian, but she still annoys me.

Ghandi? This guy isn't even a Bradley Manning.