Batman 1989/ Batman Returns Dicussion Thread

[Bat Attack]

I thought we should have a thread to discuss anything about tim burtons two batman films.

 

[Rac]

I just rewatched both films. I last watched them in 2002 and before that I don't remember, but I used watch both of 'em a lot when I was a kid.

So, I think Nicholson and The Joker ruined Batman (1989). Batman was so totally Batman in it, but The Joker was just Jack Nicholson. The character didn't even change mentally after dropping into the chemicals. "Napier" just had pale white skin and laughter. Basically he was just the same gangster he was in the beginning of the movie. He did have some Joker moments in the movie which I like. Like "Where does he get all those wonderful toys." -line and the grin on his face after he died.

But Batman, oh man! From the his first kick in the movie you can tell that's the Batman I know! Sad part is that he doesn't have as much screentime as The Joker. B'89 is okay movie, just because Batman saves a lot of it. The Joker just ruins a lot of it. The Elfman score and the overall darkness of the film saves a lot too.

Batman Returns I've always liked better. There was a lot more going on than just Jack Nicholson. The Penguin was great. Catwoman was awesome. Batman was cool. Killed a few thugs even. I loved Chris Walken.

The penguin army was something that I didn't like all that much, but I forgave it. To me, BR is the best Batman movie to date. BB is second and B'89 third. BF and B&R I don't even recognize.

TDK has good potential on topping BR. They just need to get The Joker and Two-Face right. I have my concerns because I didn't like the way the handled Ra's al Ghul in BB. I like the comic version better. Scarecrow wasn't something that was quite the way I would have done it, but it was good anyways. Passable adaptation.

 

[The Joker]

As much as I love B89, and Jack's Joker, I think Returns is the better movie. It's got multiple strong performances from great actors.

Plus, I just love the whole atmosphere in Returns. Gotham is just so gothic. Dark and dingy buildings, creepy architecture etc. It's how Gotham should look, IMO. And the snow effect is a terrific touch.

The themes in Returns are alot better, too. Catwoman, Penguin, and Shreck all represent something in Batman himself. Catwoman is the angry vigilante, Penguin is the vengeful son, and Schreck is the millionaire with a different perspective on how Gotham should be run. "You think you could go fifteen rounds of Mohammad Schreck?"

 

[Superwoman Prime]

B'89 - By far my favorite representation of Batman on screen. Jack Nicholson was a creepily entertaining villain, and Michael Keaton was the mysterious hero of the shadows. The story was beautifully simplistic. The visuals were surreal and interesting. This movie is exciting from start to finish. I could watch B'89 repeatedly, back-to-back and never grow weary of it!

BR - Pales in comparison to its predecessor. Penguin was barely able to hold my attention, and the only appeal to Catwoman was her sexual appeal. The few moments spent with Batman are the best moments in the movie. Another plus is that Burton went gung-ho with his unique visuals, so there's certainly extra eye candy worth loving.

 

[Cain]

I prefer the original to any other Batman movie. BR is a fantastic piece of cinema but there are areas to me in the original that just have not been matched by any subsequent Batman films. To me it's still the ideal representation of the mythos on the big screen so far. There's a charm there that has been absent from the others even if a few were technically more sound than that movie and better structured in terms of narratives and character they just lack the heart that BATMAN had.

I disagree with Rac cause while Napier was clearly derranged he was more serious, subdued and collected than The Joker was. So there was a noticeable change there. Also never got the "he acts like Jack Nicholson" critique. Mind you Nicholson's acting style is better suited at displaying a varying range of different emotions like some of his peers (ie:Tom Cruise, Denzel, Morgan Freeman) as opposed to transforming his everything for the role like changing his vocal patterns and things like that.

So I guess in that sense there is some familiarity within everyone of his roles. Emotionally though and character wise there is no way the guy from REDS is like the guy from The Shining who is nothing like Jake Gittes from Chinatown who is different from the dude in Cuckoo's Nest and Prizzi's Honor. So I just can't buy into that line of logic as I've never ever seen any convincing arguments online citing why "Jack was Jack". I don't know Mr. Nicholson personally but somehow I doubt that he's a narcisstic homicidal maniac.

I loved his performance as The Joker it took everything that rocked in the comics up until that point put it in a blender and liquified it into a great and very fun performance. Traces of the cold calculating criminal from the early golden age are there, the campy prankster that he became in the later golden age all the way through the silver age is there. The sadistic anarchist from the 70's is there. The vain homicidal man with a very dark sense of humor from the early to mid 80's was there. The only thing missing was the post-1988 more sinister and over the top serial killer like interpretation from the modern age but that's understandable considering the time frame of the movie shoot. So to me it was a great performance because of that it took a lot of elements from the comics that worked and brought them to life. I honestly don't think you could've gotten a better and more authentic Joker performance than that one at the time.

 

[Dark Guardian]

I prefer the original to any other Batman movie. BR is a fantastic piece of cinema but there are areas to me in the original that just have not been matched by any subsequent Batman films. To me it's still the ideal representation of the mythos on the big screen so far. There's a charm there that has been absent from the others even if a few were technically more sound than that movie and better structured in terms of narratives and character they just lack the heart that BATMAN had.

I disagree with Rac cause while Napier was clearly derranged he was more serious, subdued and collected than The Joker was. So there was a noticeable change there. Also never got the "he acts like Jack Nicholson" critique. Mind you Nicholson's acting style is better suited at displaying a varying range of different emotions like some of his peers (ie:Tom Cruise, Denzel, Morgan Freeman) as opposed to transforming his everything for the role like changing his vocal patterns and things like that.

So I guess in that sense there is some familiarity within everyone of his roles. Emotionally though and character wise there is no way the guy from REDS is like the guy from The Shining who is nothing like Jake Gittes from Chinatown who is different from the dude in Cuckoo's Nest and Prizzi's Honor. So I just can't buy into that line of logic as I've never ever seen any convincing arguments online citing why "Jack was Jack". I don't know Mr. Nicholson personally but somehow I doubt that he's a narcisstic homicidal maniac.

I loved his performance as The Joker it took everything that rocked in the comics up until that point put it in a blender and liquified it into a great and very fun performance. Traces of the cold calculating criminal from the early golden age are there, the campy prankster that he became in the later golden age all the way through the silver age is there. The sadistic anarchist from the 70's is there. The vain homicidal man with a very dark sense of humor from the early to mid 80's was there. The only thing missing was the post-1988 more sinister and over the top serial killer like interpretation from the modern age but that's understandable considering the time frame of the movie shoot. So to me it was a great performance because of that it took a lot of elements from the comics that worked and brought them to life. I honestly don't think you could've gotten a better and more authentic Joker performance than that one at the time.

I agree in full with you there.

Batman 1989 is still my favorite Bat-film. Batman Begins IMO is the better Batman film, but 89 got so much right its very barely beaten out by Begins.

Batman was played superbly. Everything from the costume, to the way he would float into a scene (i.e Axis Chemicals) as if he was drifting down from the skies, it was just so very much Batman. There's so many parts to that film where you'll see it and get chills because thats exactly what Batman should be doing. After the charity party, as he's sitting in the cave, watching the recordings, still in a tux, Michael Keaton's face just is serious Bruce Wayne there. I could go on and on, there are so very many parts about that movie where Batman is used just perfectly, but it would take a looooooong time.

The Joker, contrary to alot of people I know, was absolutely perfect for me. So what if Jack Nicholson played Jack Nicholson with a grin (which I don't think he did, however), it still was the Joker.
I really doubt I'm going to love TDK as much because to me the Joker will always be funny.
He's funny--while he's killing people, but his jokes actually make sense and you'd laugh if he wasn't in the middle of massacring people. I don't want to see a grungy, dirty, really dark Joker who uses knives and puts 'war paint' on his face.
That cannot and will not ever be the Joker for me. I'm sorry, thats just how it is.
Jack's performance can only be topped in my mind by that of Mark Hammil, who really took it and blew everyone away. The first run of TAS's Joker was absolutely perfect. Funny, but smart. Clown like, but intelligent and crafty.

Returns really doesn't cut it for me.
Michael Keaton said in an interview that for Returns he decided not to look at what he'd done before and just start anew with it, and I believe that was a very foolish decision. There are alot of times in that movie where I cringe, because you've got Michael Keaton, in this great batsuit, just out of the first movie, but he's saying something like 'Eat floor, high fiber.'
I'm sorry, but Burton just made fun of Batman too much in Returns. There's alot in there that just doesn't fit with the first film, and since the first film was damn near perfect (at least in its portrayal of the character), Returns falls short for me.
Plus the chaos of not one or two but three villains, counting Shreck, just makes Returns a turn off for me. The first film was a perfect balance of Tim Burton and Batman, but when you let Tim go a little too far he starts throwing in some very strange things. You've got to keep that guy on a leash for something like Batman.

 

[Booba34]

i dont understand whats so bad about "eat floor, high fiber", his delivery was cool and gruff, and made the line. have you ever watched BTAS? batman is saying these lines ALL the time. heck, all his lines were cool. and its good that he decided to ignore the first film, because as an actor you want to bring something new to the table, not just the same old stuff we have seen before. and keatons bruce/batman was much darker, more intense then in the first one, and IMO, not as goofball as the first one, i just liked his more serious bruce in Returns. and yes, i prefer Returns to the other bat films, but thats because i simply liked the darkness and weirdness of it, its so out there but yet it still feels real and strangly i could relate to some of the characters feelings. yes, the first film there are moments you just cant beat, but Returns is by and by the best batman film for me. and cmon, you cant beat the devito/pfieffer combo. they were just so perfect for there roles, perfectly casted, on par with jack nicholson. shame that the film was marketed as a kids film, cuz it wasnt. the new one isnt being marketed as a kids film,. but as a older teen/adult film because WB's knows that ledgers joker is gonna be just as twisted and gruesome looking as devito's openguin, and then you got what appears to be a more gruesome twoface. so its really WB who did themselves in on that one.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

Booba = GoogleMe

 

[The Guard]

"Eat floor, high fiber" isn't that bad. It's just a pun. And Batman, since about 1940, has made puns in one form or another. The writers of BATMAN RETURNS knew how to use humor. It didn't take you out of the moment, and like the films, it had a particular "energy" to it.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Ill always like 89 alot better than Returns, but BR is still in my top favs!

 

[StylishHokie21]

I think Batman 89 is still the best film for me followed by Returns. I was 3 when the first one was released, but never got the chance to see it in theaters.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I got to see 89 twice in the theaters and BR once, they were some of the best experiences of my life.

 

[TMC1982]

"Batman Returns" is my second least favorite of the films from 1989-1997 (the worst being "Batman & Robin"). I strongly felt that Tim Burton went overboard in trying to make the movie as surreal and nasty as possible. "Batman Returns" comes across as "Batman '89", on acid. This movie is so shamelessly mean-spirited and nihilistic, that I was glad that Burton had nothing to due with "Batman Forever." For all of the flack that Joel Schumacher has received throughout the years, I was glad that he's take on Batman wasn't as sadistic as Burton's approach with "Batman Returns." At least with the first film, he didn't have as much influence or say over what went on screen. I would've prefered, a more straight-foward or old fashioned action-adventure film instead of the gruesome horror-movie that was in the finished product.

*The Penguin biting that poor guy's nose.

*Penguin throwing the umbrella bomb full of bats to scare the Ice Princess.

*The upclose shot of Catwoman playing "tic tac toe" on the muggers face.

*Penguin causually shooting his fat lackey (and then dumping him in the sewer water) at close range.

*Catwoman punchering Batman's stomach and leaving one of her nails embedded in his armor.

*The tension leading up to the scene where Christopher Walken's character (Max Shreck) pushes Selina Kyle out of the window.

*The Batmobile's exhaust torching one of the Red Triangle Circus members. The thing that I hated about Burton's take on Batman was his idea that Batman is the type of hero who consciously kills his opponents in cold blood (a la The Punisher).

*That black goo oozing down Penguin's mouth just before he drops dead.

*Christopher Walken repeatedly shooting Catwoman (after he callous shoots an unmasked Batman) as she counts how many lives she has left.

*Catwoman electrucuting Max Shreck.

*Catwoman scratching Batman's face after he removes his mask.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

^ Though you do have some valid points I can see, Ill always love BR for what it is, beyond nostalgic value.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

BR didn't feel like much of a Batman film to me. One of the few aspects that keeps me from writing it off completely is Keaton. He kept the story and atmosphere somewhat reasonable. Everything else took an unfortunate dive into bizarro land.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

^ It was bizarre, but it was Burtons Batman, the way he wanted to interpret it, we all know he had full creative control thanks to WB wanting to cash in.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

Your point being?

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Just explaining the obvious I suppose, no major point.

 

[Cain]

I love Batman Returns it's hands down the most warped and darkly original summer blockbuster I've seen in a theatre in my lifetime and I've been fortunate to see a lot of classic blockbusters in theatres. Dude a tribute to German expressionism was sold as a summer movie that's still nuts to me lol years later and I keep revisiting that film and picking up new things. Very artistic and bizzarre for sure but in a good way.

It was also my first Bat movie in a theatre only reason I didn't see the first was cause I spent summer at a third world country back in 1989. But it's not the nostalgia it's definitely a good movie in it's own right and really does remind me of a lot of the horror tinged Batman stories that were common from the late 80's and early 90's.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I find with most either you hate or love BR.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

That does seem to be the trend.

 

[Bat Attack]

I find with most either you hate or love BR.

thats very true.

 

[mongoose-mania]

Though I love both Batman films, Batman Returns is my personal favorite of the two. I just loved the Penguin in that movie; every time he spoke I became captivated in his words. It was like I was watching someone on a stage delivering a speech. I think its great.
But I do love Jack Nicholson's Joker. He had such a great laugh and his eyes are just so manic. The only thing I don't like about B'89 is that it's just so SLOW. I could really do without a lot of the mooshy scenes between Bruce and Vicky Kyle. That just bored the crap outta me.

 

[Two-Face]

I thought Gotham in BR was smaller than Batman 89 Gotham. 89 Gotham was perfect.

 

[Ceb-Man]

I love Batman 89 and Batman Returns!
I loved Keaton's Batman. I loved Anton Furst's Gotham City designs from Batman 89. I loved the Batsuit from BR better though. Jack Nicholson was a great Joker. DeVito's Penguin was different, but I liked it. Pfeiffer as Catwoman was great and sexy as well! Christopher Walken as Max Shreck was awesomeas well. I loved the Burton Batman films!