Batman Begins "Batman Begins" - My In-Depth Review

[HankVenture]

I probably missed my birthday, but that was a great review! This is a perfect example of why I feel this movie by far surpasses most, if not all, superhero movies.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Thanks, Danielson and HankVenture, glad you liked the review. t:

Danielson, you're probably onto something with your mention of "The Prestige". I think all of Nolan's protagonists - Bill from "Following", Leonard from "Memento", Dormer from "Insomnia", Angier in "The Prestige", and of course Bruce Wayne - are driven by obsession, in various forms. But what sets Bruce Wayne apart is that, while the rest are consumed by their respective obsessions, he is able to emerge onto a greater moral cause, and overcome his demons. Well, to a degree, at least. There is an argument that the very act of becoming Batman marks him being consumed by his obsession...

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I don't want to reiterate the entire review in counter-argument, but I thought there was plenty of nuance to take from "Begins". Just because the film was a mainstream blockbuster, and therefore included exposition to make it more accessible to a wider audience, doesn't mean there isn't another level of depth to the film, open to discussion.

You realize most Summer blockbusters have writers who know how to advance a movie without explaining everything to you in each and every scene, right? No there isn't much depth to Batman Begins, certainly not after you've used the word fear for the hundreth time.

You're review was pretty wordy more than anything else, and not a true critique of the film in any way. If you actually spent some time thinking about it and actually comparing the dialogue and plot in that film to others you might see it doesn't hold up that well to any real analysis.

 

[Keyser Soze]

You realize most Summer blockbusters have writers who know how to advance a movie without explaining everything to you in each and every scene, right? No there isn't much depth to Batman Begins, certainly not after you've used the word fear for the hundreth time.

You're review was pretty wordy more than anything else, and not a true critique of the film in any way. If you actually spent some time thinking about it and actually comparing the dialogue and plot in that film to others you might see it doesn't hold up that well to any real analysis.

I think it holds up fine. I've thought about it plenty - "Batman Begins" was a case study in my Honours dissertation. And I've seen more than enough films to identify the parallels and compare the merits to other films, both in and out of the superhero genre. I find it strange that rather than illuminating your own views, you're attempting to undermine the validity of mine. You mght not agree with the largely positive conclusions I come too, but the subtexts I point out are inherent in the narrative regardless of your stance.

Just because my review doesn't have as negative a viewpoint on the film as your own, doesn't mean it's not "a true critique" or "a real analysis". I find it strange that - in contrast to the largely positive reception this review has received elsewhere - I've spent as much time on this board defending its very existence as I have discussing the points I've raised. Just a small part of a rising trend in negativity I've noticed on the "Begins" board in recent months.

As for "most summer blockbusters" having superior writers..... really? One thing that "Begins" was noted for was addressing with subtlety and nuance the same themes which were being given ham-fisted treatment in other summer blockbusters - even "Revenge of the Sith" and "Sin City" that same year. And though there's a lot of exposition (I'd be interested to know what superhero movies you prefer, as this terrible flaw is present in most if not all of them) there's also plenty of things that go unsaid.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

As for "most summer blockbusters" having superior writers..... really? One thing that "Begins" was noted for was addressing with subtlety and nuance the same themes which were being given ham-fisted treatment in other summer blockbusters - even "Revenge of the Sith" and "Sin City" that same year. And though there's a lot of exposition (I'd be interested to know what superhero movies you prefer, as this terrible flaw is present in most if not all of them) there's also plenty of things that go unsaid.

Try Mask of the Phantasm, a far superior film that was able to advance it's plot without needless exposition, campy dialogue or HAM FISTED themes. The reason the public like Batman Begins so much is because we sat through Batman Forever and Batman & Robin to get to it. Sin City was a far superior film, and frankly if you looked at the critics top ten lists for that year, Batman Begins wasn't on any, but Sin City actually made a few. In fact some even suggested Mickey Rourke was snubbed at the Oscars. More to the point, Batman Begins got nominated for a Razzie, and won...

Superman, X2: X-Men United (despite being wildly inaccurate), and even the first Spider-Man were leaps and bounds ahead of Batman Begins, a movie which practically falls apart in it's second act.

I wrote my college entrance exam, to a top tier school, on comic books. It does not mean because you can write about it that the film is deep, meritorious on any particular landmark in filmaking. What we got was little more than a cliche' action movie that was just good enough to get fanboys and general audience members up in a tither about how great it was. Remember, although critics liked it, it's far from the highest rated superhero movie. The X-Men movies, Spider-Man 1 and 2 and the first Batman got better reviews on rotten tomatoes and several other critic websites.

Batman Begins is a clunky script directed as best as it could be, but ultimately falls prey to it's own flaws. I know you think it's deep, hell Transformers fans think Generation 1 cartoons were deep, but it isn't. No film that overstates it's theme in such a way that entire pieces of dialogue spell the entire thing out for you is deep, or subtle. That movie, was about as subtle as a sledgehammer.

"I seek the means to fight injustice", "I need to shake people out of apathy", "It's not who I am underneath but what I do that defines me". You realize people don't really talk like that, right.

This movie reminds me of a show I used to love as a child: Robotech: The Macross Saga. See it has the same problems. It deals with adult "themes" but slavishly spells everything out for you in dialogue that sounds as though it's being written for a 70s pop poet. So most people mistaken it for being a subtle, deep, meaningful piece of american television. But it isn't. Because if you have adult themes, that's not enough, you have to present them in an adult way. Not like your presenting them for the hard of hearing or worse, hard of thinking.

I could easily watch Bruce Timm's episodes and tell you many of their themes, despite the fact that he was often a minimalist with dialogue, sometimes telling entire stories with almost no dialogue at all (there were a few episodes). That's the task of a writer: show me don't tell me. All Goyer knows how to do is tell you. He told you in Blade(s), which was fine, because Blade doesn't have to be a whole big complex story. He told you in Begins, which is a shame, because Batman can be so much more than that.

Funny thing is, this happens with every decent superhero movie; it's not enough for fans for it to be "okay" as a film. They have to overhype it to oblivion. I wonder sometimes, whether I'm even watching the same film. When they say "OMGZ it's so comic accurate", when it isn't. Or "OMG, that film was so deep and complex" when it isn't.

You're on a comic book message board, and contrary to what you believe, people outside this place don't spend their time obsessing and gushing over Batman Begins, in fact, I heard CHUD.com posters think very little of the film.

Last thing. You said you posted this because it got ignored in the "Batman got right/wrong thread". Get over yourself, please. If people don't pay attention to you, don't make a thread saying "Oh, please pay attention to my post now", this should really be merged with the thread we already have devoted on this topic.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Try Mask of the Phantasm, a far superior film that was able to advance it's plot without needless exposition, campy dialogue or HAM FISTED themes. The reason the public like Batman Begins so much is because we sat through Batman Forever and Batman & Robin to get to it. Sin City was a far superior film, and frankly if you looked at the critics top ten lists for that year, Batman Begins wasn't on any, but Sin City actually made a few. In fact some even suggested Mickey Rourke was snubbed at the Oscars. More to the point, Batman Begins got nominated for a Razzie, and won...

Superman, X2: X-Men United (despite being wildly inaccurate), and even the first Spider-Man were leaps and bounds ahead of Batman Begins, a movie which practically falls apart in it's second act.

I wrote my college entrance exam, to a top tier school, on comic books. It does not mean because you can write about it that the film is deep, meritorious on any particular landmark in filmaking. What we got was little more than a cliche' action movie that was just good enough to get fanboys and general audience members up in a tither about how great it was. Remember, although critics liked it, it's far from the highest rated superhero movie. The X-Men movies, Spider-Man 1 and 2 and the first Batman got better reviews on rotten tomatoes and several other critic websites.

Batman Begins is a clunky script directed as best as it could be, but ultimately falls prey to it's own flaws. I know you think it's deep, hell Transformers fans think Generation 1 cartoons were deep, but it isn't. No film that overstates it's theme in such a way that entire pieces of dialogue spell the entire thing out for you is deep, or subtle. That movie, was about as subtle as a sledgehammer.

"I seek the means to fight injustice", "I need to shake people out of apathy", "It's not who I am underneath but what I do that defines me". You realize people don't really talk like that, right.

This movie reminds me of a show I used to love as a child: Robotech: The Macross Saga. See it has the same problems. It deals with adult "themes" but slavishly spells everything out for you in dialogue that sounds as though it's being written for a 70s pop poet. So most people mistaken it for being a subtle, deep, meaningful piece of american television. But it isn't. Because if you have adult themes, that's not enough, you have to present them in an adult way. Not like your presenting them for the hard of hearing or worse, hard of thinking.

I could easily watch Bruce Timm's episodes and tell you many of their themes, despite the fact that he was often a minimalist with dialogue, sometimes telling entire stories with almost no dialogue at all (there were a few episodes). That's the task of a writer: show me don't tell me. All Goyer knows how to do is tell you. He told you in Blade(s), which was fine, because Blade doesn't have to be a whole big complex story. He told you in Begins, which is a shame, because Batman can be so much more than that.

Funny thing is, this happens with every decent superhero movie; it's not enough for fans for it to be "okay" as a film. They have to overhype it to oblivion. I wonder sometimes, whether I'm even watching the same film. When they say "OMGZ it's so comic accurate", when it isn't. Or "OMG, that film was so deep and complex" when it isn't.

You're on a comic book message board, and contrary to what you believe, people outside this place don't spend their time obsessing and gushing over Batman Begins, in fact, I heard CHUD.com posters think very little of the film.

Last thing. You said you posted this because it got ignored in the "Batman got right/wrong thread". Get over yourself, please. If people don't pay attention to you, don't make a thread saying "Oh, please pay attention to my post now", this should really be merged with the thread we already have devoted on this topic.

I always find it amusing how people are in such abject denial that anyone can actually find a movie they hate to be good, that they'll bend over backwards to come with conspiracy theories for why people pretend it's great, or lie about it's merit, or they're following a Nolanite agenda, or they're blinded by fanboyism, blah blah blah. No, perhaps people say it's a great film because....gasp!....it actually IS a great film!?!?

Okay, onto your points. "Sin City" was a far superior film? I don't think so. Don't get me wrong, I like "Sin City". I was much more hyped about that than "Begins" on the approach to its release, and I saw it in the cinema more times than "Begins". But I think "Begins" has aged better than "Sin City", and held up better under the DVD repeat viewing test, because while "Sin City" takes the style-over-substance approach, there's real heart to the story of "Batman Begins". As for critical praise, both were well-reviewed at the time, but I've seen "Begins" be mentioned more since, and it is still weighing in on various critics' lists while "Sin City" has been largely forgotten. Recently, as part of their 10th Anniversary special, "Total Film" ranked "Batman Begins" as the 5th best movie of the past decade, a list "Sin City" didn't appear in. "Batman Begins" won a Razzie? For who, Katie Holmes? Aside from the fact that the Razzie has lost all touch with its original intentions, and would probably have given her the award for marrying Tom Cruise regardless of the film, you ignore that "Begins" was nominated for an Oscar, and I THINK (though I'm not sure) it won.

"Superman", "X2" and "Spider-Man" were all great films, like "Batman Begins". But in your desperation to hate "Batman Begins" and bring it down, you're falling into the same trap others have. In reaching for flaws, you've clutched onto this "exposition" issue. And if that is the awful, film-ruining flaw you make it out to be, then "Superman", "X2" and "Spider-Man" must all be REALLY awful, as they have the same issue. Not that I really think it's an issue. But you seem to. And if you hold any of those "superior" films under the same intensive, looking-for-flaws level of scrutiny you have held "Begins" under, then they'd fall apart. Most genre films would, never mind superhero films.

I never said "Begins" was a landmark in filmmaking. Unlike you, I'm not arrogant enough to pass off my opinions as the absolute truth. You say "You THINK it's deep.....but it's not." When actually the truth of the matter is "I THINK it's deep, and you THINK it's not deep." Though I will say that you seem to be confusing "deep" with "impenetrable". Just because much of the primary themes are overtly explained doesn't mean that the whole thing is 2-dimensional and shallow. But I already talked about the subtext in the original review, and like I said it's a waste of time repeating myself.

As for the great crime of comic book geeks liking comic book movies..... CONTRARY TO WHAT YOU BELIEVE, the appeal of "Begins" isn't totally confined to comic book message boards. The film was well received by both critics and general audiences, many of whom know nothing about the comics. The very fact that you hold the opinion of CHUD.com in such high esteem says a lot. Devin Faradi is an arrogant, ill-informed, self-loathing-geek who thinks superhero comics (and anyone who reads them) are stupid and juvenile, and therefore has a long-standing agenda against any superhero comic (or superhero movie) which aspires to be anything more than mindless kiddie fluff. His hatred for "Begins" was just a new chapter in this storied history.

And get over myself? I made a new thread for this because, after spending close to a week working on it, the thread got derailed by a troll called lonzoe flaming everyone and ultimately getting banned by mods. Plus, people said they enjoyed reading it, and that it deserved it's own thread, so I took their advice. I know with jaded cynics such as yourself that frequent the "Begins" board, any thread that dares to be positive about the film is painting a bullseye on itself and asking for trouble, but I think demanding they be merged with other, more negatively-skewed threads is going a bit far.

I do think it's a shame that some people can't grasp the simple concept that one can debate over something without making it into a personal dispute. I've tried to be civil in my discussions with people who disagreed with my review, but ShadowBoxing seems to be intent to not only challenge my points, but attack me and the thread's very existence. I regret some elements of the tone I've taken in my response, but sadly it seems he came in here looking for a fight rather than a debate.

 

[S.A.A.D.]

I still don't think BB is as good as people say it was,I would say it's best parts about it were seeing the Batman transformation and his gadgets and suit,and the music. Other than that What we end up with is crap action,some terrible sounding dialog from Bale's Batman at times,and a Batman who is a bit too sloppy for my taste. The worst dialog in the movie IMO was "It's not who I am underneath that defines me,it's what I do that defines me.". Oh yeah,and a terrible looking Batmobile that sticks out like a sore thumb IMO. It was sloppy and uninspiring(in a good way of course). All of this is coming from someone who considers himself a huge Batman fan,which is of course me.

I wish people(in general) would stop forcing BB down others throats,even if it's not Spiderman 1 and 2 forcing down the throat level!

Batman 1989 to me is better than Batman Begins,I even think Batman Returns is better than BB too. At first I thought BB was really good when it came out,but now I sort of recently changed my mind while reflecting back,I also think I watched it a bit too much on dvd. Oh and I got nothing at all against you Keyster,trust me man. BB felt dark,but not dark enough. Keyser,I would read all of your in depth review on Batman Begins,but I can't,I'm sure you could have condensced the crap out of making it long but to the point. It's like you wrote an essay on BB rather than the generic movie critic review.

 

[Keyser Soze]

I still don't think BB is as good as people say it was,I would say it's best parts about it were seeing the Batman transformation and his gadgets and suit,and the music. Other than that What we end up with is crap action,some terrible sounding dialog from Bale's Batman at times,and a Batman who is a bit too sloppy for my taste. The worst dialog in the movie IMO was "It's not who I am underneath that defines me,it's what I do that defines me.". Oh yeah,and a terrible looking Batmobile that sticks out like a sore thumb IMO. It was sloppy and uninspiring(in a good way of course). All of this is coming from someone who considers himself a huge Batman fan,which is of course me.

I wish people(in general) would stop forcing BB down others throats,even if it's not Spiderman 1 and 2 forcing down the throat level!

Batman 1989 to me is better than Batman Begins,I even think Batman Returns is better than BB too. At first I thought BB was really good when it came out,but now I sort of recently changed my mind while reflecting back,I also think I watched it a bit too much on dvd. Oh and I got nothing at all against you Keyster,trust me man. BB felt dark,but not dark enough. Keyser,I would read all of your in depth review on Batman Begins,but I can't,I'm sure you could have condensced the crap out of making it long but to the point. It's like you wrote an essay on BB rather than the generic movie critic review.

Nothing to worry about, S.A.A.D., I know you have nothing against me, and I'm not going to take any offense against you not liking "Begins". At least you were civil in expressing your opinion. And yes, I'd say what I wrote ended up being more an essay than a review.

I do think the "It's not who I am underneath..." line is one of the weakest in the film. It seems too much like trying to find an equivalent to "With great power comes great responsibility." However, I must say I liked the design of the Batmobile. It's kinda rough around the edges, like Batman himself here in the beginning of his career, both feeling like a work in progress. And I get the feeling both will evolve in subsequent films.

 

[S.A.A.D.]

Nothing to worry about, S.A.A.D., I know you have nothing against me, and I'm not going to take any offense against you not liking "Begins". At least you were civil in expressing your opinion. And yes, I'd say what I wrote ended up being more an essay than a review.

I do think the "It's not who I am underneath..." line is one of the weakest in the film. It seems too much like trying to find an equivalent to "With great power comes great responsibility." However, I must say I liked the design of the Batmobile. It's kinda rough around the edges, like Batman himself here in the beginning of his career, both feeling like a work in progress. And I get the feeling both will evolve in subsequent films.

Awesome,I am very glad we can get along,I haven't known you for a long time but you're freaking cool in my book already,heh. I wouldn't be so against the Tumbler if the front had some Batmanish qualities. Maybe the line should have been delivered good,I'm not sure. t: You're one of the good guys here IMO. I respect that you care for Batman so much which was very clear through you're Batman Begins essay,hehe.

 

[Man Who Laughed]

Well said Keyser Soze.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, even though I may not have realized it the first time I watched Begins.

That bit about the murder of Bruce's parents was the highlight of the review for me. So many people see this murder as a tragic act of unneccessary violence, that is drawn out in slo-mo and ends with Bruce swearing to fight crime. I've always asked myself, is that *really* going to be the first thing on his mind? And you're right. It's the journey that creates Batman. Not the act. The quick and dirty take on the murder was incredible. And I love the fact that Thomas actually shows empathy towards Chill. He identifies with him, in a sense.

This movie seems to have a few small moments that are looked over very easily, but that I always felt helped define the loneliness of Bruce's world after the murder. The first comes with Loeb's line, "Good news. We got him." As if telling this to a 10-year old Bruce will allow some relief. The second is Mr. Earls line at the funeral. "You're in good hands now. We'll watch the empire until you're ready." Again, trying to offer comfort through a medium that Bruce doesn't even understand. Counter pointed a minute later by Alfred comforting Bruce. Letting us in on the fact that Alfred is truly the only one that understands Bruce.

Again, very nice review.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Well said Keyser Soze.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, even though I may not have realized it the first time I watched Begins.

That bit about the murder of Bruce's parents was the highlight of the review for me. So many people see this murder as a tragic act of unneccessary violence, that is drawn out in slo-mo and ends with Bruce swearing to fight crime. I've always asked myself, is that *really* going to be the first thing on his mind? And you're right. It's the journey that creates Batman. Not the act. The quick and dirty take on the murder was incredible. And I love the fact that Thomas actually shows empathy towards Chill. He identifies with him, in a sense.

This movie seems to have a few small moments that are looked over very easily, but that I always felt helped define the loneliness of Bruce's world after the murder. The first comes with Loeb's line, "Good news. We got him." As if telling this to a 10-year old Bruce will allow some relief. The second is Mr. Earls line at the funeral. "You're in good hands now. We'll watch the empire until you're ready." Again, trying to offer comfort through a medium that Bruce doesn't even understand. Counter pointed a minute later by Alfred comforting Bruce. Letting us in on the fact that Alfred is truly the only one that understands Bruce.

Again, very nice review.

Thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated. t:

You picked up on something I overlooked in my review - namely, the emptiness in the comfort offered by the likes of Loeb and Earle. I'd like to add that, as well as Alfred serving as a counterpoint to Earle, Gordon is a counterpoint to Loeb, as his small action of putting Bruce's father's coat on his shoulders shows far more understanding and sympathy than Loeb's words.

 

[Carmine Falcone]

Phenomenal review man. You know how to write.
I'll see this film with a somewhat different set of eyes on my next viewing. Especially the bit you wrote about the Wayne murders is excellent. I always felt is was quite messy and muddled. And I thought it was just poor executed -- but I even doubted that thought, Because Nolan knows so incredibly well what he's doing. It makes sense now. Thanks.

 

[DeathRaven]

Everything in your review Keyser is how I felt the first time watching it. I have to agree, it seems that just on the begins boards if you declare your love for the movie you paint a very large target on yourself and hordes of people slam you for it.

I understand not every one is going to like the movie, thats fine but I see alot of people putting down things in threads like what it got right and wrong like Flass was not the comic flass as things it got wrong. In reality that has nothing to do with a film being good or not, a film is good or bad based upon the story, editing and so on. Not on the character interperation they used. With this I see that alot of people dont like the movie because it is not the comic but a different take on the characters.

So of course if something is changed we must hate it (im not saying this about every one, I am just noticing a huge trend on these boards as well as many others). The biggest one being how they explored Bruces transformation which to me was the best part of the movie. I am very glad they didnt go the route of his parents dieing and him saying right there he would fight those who did this to him. I like that he struggled with his morals for so long, but again that is just an opinion.

 

[boroboro]

Keyser Soze,
While I disagreed with some points you made, that was one of the best analysis of Batman Begins I've ever read. Great read and thanks!

 

[-Arya-]

Let me first say that your review is outstanding. You touched up on perhaps all the points of the film.

Im going to be honost, at first I didnt enjoy BB. I remember leaving the movie theater saying, "that didnt feel like Batman to me." Now this could have been because I was accustomed to Burton's version that I didnt want to see a new stlye of Batman. I also thought the music was poorly done when i first saw it. Again this was due to the fact that I enjoyed Burton's music so much.

Well now that I have grown older I realize just how excellent begins was. It took multiple watchings but I fell in love with Begins after I thoroughly analyzed everything in the film. Like you said Im learning new things and admiring more of the film as I see it more and more. I also realized this was just the "beginning" so the music will get better as the sequels come.

Overall I agree with most of your post, well done sir