BvS Batman's motivation for fighting Superman

[rogbngp]

Uh... What's been reported exactly? Confirmed by whom?

An interview in the Omelete in which the costume designer reportedly spills the beans that the desert sequence is Bruce Wayne's nightmare:

http://omelete.uol.com.br/filmes/no...vs-superman-confirma-pesadelo-de-bruce-wayne/

Still waiting for a translation of it, though.

I think the distinction between a nightmare by Bruce and a prophetic vision by Diana is obviously huge, and perhaps something that the costume designer didn't know or make clear, if it is Diana's vision. It may have been intended as a statement to the effect that "it isn't real," i.e., it is occuring in someone's mind rather than physical reality.

 

[Tensor]

Batception!
B
R
BRAVO SNYDER
V
O

 

[rogbngp]

This is the Google translator version of the article: Batman vs Superman costume designer confirms Bruce Wayne nightmare

 

[rogbngp]

To add some more thoughts to this:

Batman suffered the trauma of having felt powerless to prevent his parents' death, for which he has compensated by becoming the Batman. As a crime-fighter Batman also apparently was unable to prevent the death of Jason Todd at the hands of the Joker, which surely haunts him. So Bruce's loss of his employees during Superman's battle with Zod must tweak that core vulnerability within him: his sense of both helplessness and rage about those losses.

I think these ingredients explain Batman's conscious experience of why he is going after Superman. I'm going to assume that Batman, the World's Greatest Detective, has some insight into the effects of the trauma of witnessing his parents' death and his rage at a feeling of helplessness that Alfred describes.

Now back to the desert dream. There is an aspect of Batman's helplessness/rage that he may be out of touch with. And that is how much the Superman he fears symbolizes the darker qualities within Batman himself that he is unable to accept. This is a speculation based on a speculation, obviously... but I think it is significant that Batman snaps someone's neck in the dream. Because as we know, both Superman and Batman share the same moral code to at all costs try to avoid killing. It is at that point presumably well known by the world that Superman killed General Zod by breaking his neck.

Thus, in this dream Batman and Superman are merged together through both their no-kill rule and breaking that rule.

If all this is correct, the dream about Superman is really a dream about Batman himself. And in this sense it truly is a nightmare. Through the image of Superman in command of fascist soldiers, the dream seems to present a vision of what Batman fears Superman could become, i.e., a tyrant, an abuser of power. But is it possible that that is something that Batman has been denying about himself as a powerful vigilante, and the tremendous rage that drives him?

The issue of avoiding killing is central to both Batman's and Superman's characters. Superman has his own reasons for the no-kill rule that we will set to the side for now. But for Batman, the moral code to never, ever kill is arguably a reaction formation. Bruce's own parents were murdered as he looked helplessly on as a child. Apparently due to guilt from it being so helpless about it, he became a vigilante who avoids killing at all costs so that he will never become like his enemies. However, it does not take a great stretch of the imagination to suppose that Batman has been repressing his own urges to satisfy his vengeance by killing the wicked ever since his parents died.

In both the teaser and full length trailer we see a scene in which the Batplane fires upon human targets and apparently kills them. Could it be that this more world-weary and jaded Batman has..."relaxed"... the no-kill rule?

In fearing what Superman may become, Batman is wrestling with ambivalence about what he himself is really and truly all about. We can easily imagine that Bruce has at some level asked himself whether it is true that, as Clark Kent warns Perry White in the BvS trailer, "This 'Bat-vigilante''s like a one-man reign of terror"?

Bruce himself states to Alfred in commenting on the condition of Gotham, "How many good guys are left? How many stayed that way?" The comment may in part refer to Harvey Dent. But perhaps the statement also reflects doubts that have festered in Batman about himself as well.

I doubt that Batman has 'snapped' because of all this internal pressure. Nor that he is unstable. But if what I'm conjecturing here is correct, my guess is that he will be driven by it with an extraordinary and singular force.

And again, we don't know the extent of Luthor's involvement in manipulating all this, if in fact Lex is indeed somehow ultimately acting as a puppet-master for the conflict, pulling strings unseen. (At one point Lex apparently has Superman kneeling before him in submission and the control he exerts to make that happen is unknown.) Lex Luthor's role is a big wild card in the hypothesis here.

Given that it is apparently confirmed that the desert sequence is a nightmare, dreams have a way of condensing multiple themes into a single symbol. We have Superman appearing as a menace in the dream but I think that could reflect the fear of the human species itself eventually being wiped out by aliens, etc. I.e., Superman himself stands in the dream as a symbol of extraterrestrial beings destroying all of humanity. Recall that annihilation of humanity came a hair's breadth from happening with the Black Zero event! And interestingly, Batman was utterly helpless to do anything about something on that scale. It would tie into Batman's rage-at-his-helplessness to prevent his parents' deaths that he has going on from witnessing his parents being murdered.

 

[Greens]

In the wake of the new trailer, I think the topic of this thread is why it works so well for the general audience. Chances are if you tell a layman about this movie, they're gonna say "Aren't Batman and Superman both good guys? Why would they fight each other?"

The new trailer clearly spells out Bruce's motivation for being pissed with Superman. It gives audiences something to hold on to.

 

[rogbngp]

In the wake of the new trailer, I think the topic of this thread is why it works so well for the general audience. Chances are if you tell a layman about this movie, they're gonna say "Aren't Batman and Superman both good guys? Why would they fight each other?"

The new trailer clearly spells out Bruce's motivation for being pissed with Superman. It gives audiences something to hold on to.

That is very true. Krypton Inc. has summarized the emotional aspect to it better than I have, and the more I think about it the more inclined I am to agree with him that it will be emotional rather than intellectual. I think the movie will have to do a respectable job of showing us why Batman has such intense antagonism against Superman, though. The reasons will have to feel compelling and authentic. I think there is enough within Batman's past to make it come to life, and be felt viscerally. There's enough there.

 

[BH/HHH]

In the wake of the new trailer, I think the topic of this thread is why it works so well for the general audience. Chances are if you tell a layman about this movie, they're gonna say "Aren't Batman and Superman both good guys? Why would they fight each other?"

The new trailer clearly spells out Bruce's motivation for being pissed with Superman. It gives audiences something to hold on to.

Spot on Greens, that opening scene sets up perfectly.

 

[rogbngp]

Okay, well this article potentially buttresses my speculation set forth on p1. that Amanda Waller might create a complex tie that links Lex Luthor, Bruce Wayne, and Superman. And that that tie fuels Batman's motivation to fight Superman.

To recap my speculation:

1) Based on Bruce Wayne's own government involvement in research and development of various technologies, and his surveillance of the Defense Department as Batman, he has concluded that the military industrial complex is one of the greatest threats mankind faces. Batman is of course cynical about power and corruption to begin with. But what makes this definitive is the Black Zero event and the prospect of the military getting its hands on Kryptonian tech and weaponizing it. Which means the engineering of super-soldiers via Kryptonian bio-tech.

2) Batman is particularly concerned about Amanda Waller's program--and she knows it. (We know Batman appears in a scene with Joker and Harley Quinn. Therefore he may have a run-in with Waller.) Waller and Batman spy on each other. Batman puts Waller's program at risk. She wants Batman dealt with.

3) Superman has forged an uneasy alliance with the government (see ending of MoS). Superman isn't stupid--he doesn't really trust the military. But his help is legitimately needed for some things and he hopes to nurture their 'better angels'. Superman has been asked by the government to place limits on Batman's "vigilantism." But the real reason the government asks it is that Waller needs Batman shut down.

So I am actually feeling fairly confident in this now.

Here is the text of the article at Comic Book Resources (source):

In an ad for Warner Bros.' "Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice," Lex Luthor takes part in an interview that reveals some new information about the DC Cinematic Universe, including some familiar names: Kord, Stagg, Queen and Krieg.

While Wayne Enterprises is almost universally known to belong to Bruce Wayne, the others will also be familiar to fans of the DC Universe. For instance, Queen Industries is run by Oliver Queen, the Justice League's own Green Arrow. Likewise, Kord Industries refers to Ted Kord, who becomes Blue Beetle, and Gheschaft Kreif has ties to Cyborg. Stagg Industries also hints at a possible connection to Metamorpho. By including them in the graphic below, which appeared in the aforementioned ad, the DC Cinematic Universe welcomes them into the fold.

Luthor also makes a big namedrop in the interview: A.R.G.U.S. While we knew A.R.G.U.S. would be involved in the DC Cinematic Universe thanks to the forthcoming "Suicide Squad" film, this is the first time it has been mentioned in connection to "Batman v Superman." Lex seems to give a little nod to Amanda Waller (Viola Davis) as well.

"I'm not going to go into a lot of detail here," Luthor says. "Suffice it to say the dangers we've been talking about are very real. And they're not just limited to a couple of alien brawlers able to level tall buildings in a single bout. I'm ready to sit down with whatever task force the government has assembled -- in the interest of sharing intelligence and building solutions together. If she… they… Argus… the government, whatever you want to call it, has a real interest in fighting for the future, they ought to work with those of us who are already on the front lines."

The ad also featured a new photo of Jesse Eisenberg's Lex Luthor.

When the interviewer asks for clarification, he adds, "What. Is. Argus. Spelled A.R.G.U.S."

He also discusses his thoughts on Batman's "ridiculous" brand of vigilantism. "I'd say he's all too human. Any objective analyst will tell you that his brand of justice, vigilantism, is painfully outmoded, designed to be effective in an age when the law carried billy clubs because crime carried knives. The most dangerous guy on the street worked in the shadows because he was cowardly and superstitious. That's all you needed to play upon in order to disrupt their operations. You want to clean up the streets? Dress up like the boogeyman, switch on a fog machine and lower your voice."

"The new threats facing us are real. And they're growing. It's past time for a radical rethink of our rusted-out lines of defense. If I have a philosophy here, it's this: You don't solve a multiplication problem with division. Unite, or die. The public and the private sectors have to work together to create the next generation of defense technologies necessary to literally save the world. This is the future, and lone gunmen and caped crusaders aren't worth the ink it takes to print their name in a footnote," he concludes.

Directed by Zack Snyder, "Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice" hits theaters March 25, 2016, and stars Ben Affleck as Batman, Henry Cavill as Superman and Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman.

And this is the source article at the LexCorp site.

And here is the text of the interview with Lex linked immediately above (thanks to Fallen Angel for posting this here.)

The impending launch of his company’s revolutionary new operating system Lex/OS (I got my hands on the beta and, yeah, it’s awesome) seemed like the perfect moment to sit down with the dynamic and, at times, controversial, young genius behind the LexCorp magic to see what else he’s got up his sleeve.

The elevator doors open and I step into the opulent Royal Penthouse Suite at the Park Metropolis Downtown. Eleven lavish bedrooms, each with its own floor-to-ceiling Italian marble bath, a 100-seat cinema/lecture hall, a four-lane bowling alley (two standard American, one duckpin, one Belgian feather), twin helipads and its own private Caffè Bene. In other words: exactly what you’d expect for $95,000 a night.

Of course, no one’s actually staying here. This is just the space he’s rented for my fifteen-minutes-but-more-like-ten, no-holds-barred-except-several interview.

If I didn’t know better, I’d think billionaire tech wunderkind Lex Luthor was trying to intimidate me.

Ron Troupe: Nice digs.
Lex Luthor: We’re not doing that.
Ron Troupe: Doing what?
Lex Luthor: We’re not opening with a wide-eyed layman’s description of the hotel room that makes me look unrelatable just to set up a dramatic twist wherein, lo and behold, you discover I’m surprisingly down-to-earth because I know the score of the last Metros game.
Ron Troupe: Do you?
Lex Luthor: Metros 102, Guardsmen 86.
Ron Troupe: Weird. (it’s the correct “relatable” small talk, but coming out of him, it sounds less like a basketball score than a set of algebraic integers.)
Lex Luthor: Which is why we’re not doing it.
Ron Troupe: Would you say you’re a man who’s always gotten what he wants?
Lex Luthor: Nice pivot. Here’s mine: What I want is to leave the planet in better shape for the next generation. To make the world and its children safer. I want it. And I bet you do too, Ron.
Ron Troupe: You sound like someone running for political office.
Lex Luthor: If that matches their rhetoric, then maybe I should pay more attention to the candidates; I might want to back a few of them. The world is changing faster than we anticipated; we’ve all seen it. More than ever, we need leaders who not only comprehend the new threats facing us, but who will seriously and thoughtfully address them.
Ron Troupe: You’ve been very vocal about that. About the new superhuman threat.
Lex Luthor: Well I don’t know where you got that term. I think to be a super human, one should begin by being, you know, from this planet.
Ron Troupe: Bad choice of words?
Lex Luthor: We should all be careful when we elevate anyone, human or alien, to “super” status.
Ron Troupe: Because we’re all equal.
Lex Luthor: Well that’s just absurd. No – I’m saying we need to be selective and elevate the right people. The right human people.
Ron Troupe: And what are your thoughts on the Batman? He’s human. Presumably.
Lex Luthor: Well, he is. In fact, I’d say he’s all too human. Any objective analyst will tell you that his brand of justice, vigilantism, is painfully outmoded, designed to be effective in an age when the law carried billy clubs because crime carried knives. The most dangerous guy on the street worked in the shadows because he was cowardly and superstitious. That’s all you needed to play upon in order to disrupt their operations. You want to clean up the streets? Dress up like the boogeyman, switch on a fog machine and lower your voice.
Ron Troupe: When you put it that way, it sounds ridiculous.
Lex Luthor: It didn’t when the Batman first appeared, but that was a long time ago. This is a new world, Ron, and it’s time to get serious.
Lex Luthor: Look at it from the other side: today, there are more criminals than ever. If you’re a criminal, that means more competition. So if you’re going to survive in that economy, you have to be better; you have to edge out your rivals. Shouldn’t the same be true for those on the side of the law? If justice is going to survive in the new global paradigm, we have to get better, invest in new disruptive technologies, think outside Pandora’s Box. Who has the resources to do it? The government? No; the only thing holding that old purse together is a thick layer of impenetrable red tape. Vigilantes like the Batman? Not unless they have access to vast amounts of untold riches.
Ron Troupe: Like you.
Lex Luthor: I’m not a vigilante.
Ron Troupe: Maybe not in the traditional sense. But you are investing a good deal of your personal wealth in the area of defense and specifically the kinds of disruptive technologies you just referenced, even as you’ve been turned down time and again for the kinds of government contracts that would make those investments profitable. One man working outside the government to clean up the streets? Sure sounds like—
Lex Luthor: I’m going to stop you because your facts are as wrong as your characterization. If you want to understand me, understand this: I’m a businessman with long-term global investments; I would be in breach of my fiduciary responsibility if I didn’t work to protect the planet. I’m not just counting on humanity, I’m betting on it.
Ron Troupe: Let’s go back. You mentioned the government. What role do they play in your “new global paradigm”?
Lex Luthor: Last week, I would have given you a totally different answer.
Ron Troupe: What changed?
Lex Luthor: Let’s just say I ran into a wall. I’m not going to go into a lot of detail here. Suffice it to say the dangers we’ve been talking about are very real. And they’re not just limited to a couple of alien brawlers able to level tall buildings in a single bout. I’m ready to sit down with whatever task force the government has assembled — in the interest of sharing intelligence and building solutions together. If she… they… Argus… the government, whatever you want to call it, has a real interest in fighting for the future, they ought to work with those of us who are already on the front lines.
Ron Troupe: I’m sorry, can we— what is Argus?
Lex Luthor: What. Is. Argus. Spelled A.R.G.U.S.

Ron Troupe lives in Metropolis with his fiancée Lucy under a dangerously tall stack of fast food wrappers and old LexCorp business filings.

 

[rogbngp]

To recap my speculation:

1) Based on Bruce Wayne's own government involvement in research and development of various technologies, and his surveillance of the Defense Department as Batman, he has concluded that the military industrial complex is one of the greatest threats mankind faces. Batman is of course cynical about power and corruption to begin with. But what makes this definitive is the Black Zero event and the prospect of the military getting its hands on Kryptonian tech and weaponizing it. Which means the engineering of super-soldiers via Kryptonian bio-tech.

2) Batman is particularly concerned about Amanda Waller's program--and she knows it. (We know Batman appears in a scene with Joker and Harley Quinn. Therefore he may have a run-in with Waller.) Waller and Batman spy on each other. Batman puts Waller's program at risk. She wants Batman dealt with.

3) Superman has forged an uneasy alliance with the government (see ending of MoS). Superman isn't stupid--he doesn't really trust the military. But his help is legitimately needed for some things and he hopes to nurture their 'better angels'. Superman has been asked by the government to place limits on Batman's "vigilantism." But the real reason the government asks it is that Waller needs Batman shut down.

So for example, when Clark and Bruce meet at Lex's charity event (assuming that's what it is) there is built-in tension for that moment from the above. And also following the above, Superman would likely already have had the run-in with Batman in which he smashes the Batmobile and rips its doors off. In that scene he will be 'having a friendly chat' with Batman telling him to knock off the vigilantism. What I'm conjecturing above provides a deeper backdrop for that.

 

[rogbngp]

Here is a succinct updated synopsis of my theory:

• Lex knows that Superman is Clark Kent and Batman is Bruce Wayne because he's allied with Amanda Waller. That is, Lex has been contracted by the military to reverse-engineer Krytponian tech, and he has met with Amanda who is overseeing that military project.
• Waller and Batman have both been mutually spying on one another for some time. That is how Bruce knows Superman is Clark Kent. Batman has had at least one run-in with Amanda Waller, and knows about A.R.G.U.S. and regards it as a threat.
• Waller is behind the government asking Superman to "set limits" on Batman's vigilantism. She wants the two of them to fight in order to shut Batman down from snooping on A.R.G.U.S.--and maybe even end up getting himself killed by Superman.
• Amanda will try to use Lex as such. But Lex is a genius so he will outsmart her in return, i.e., he'll ultimately be using her instead. Rather than just being used by Waller to achieve the neutralization of Batman, Lex will upset Waller's apple cart by using Kryptonian bio-tech to try to create his own personal army of super-soldiers (versus simply doing the R&D for the military to develop their own versions); and in order to do that he needs an unstoppable creature such as Doomsday to stop Superman.
• Lex rationalizes to himself that he is a hero in doing this. He's grandiose and believes that only he is smart enough to be trusted with Kryptonian tech. He is protecting humanity by retaining sole control of Kryptonian tech. He doesn't trust the government with it any more than Batman does. But that mistrust more fueled by his own narcissism than altruistic.
• The wild card that Lex doesn't expect, and can't overcome, will be Wonder Woman.