Better villain: Thanos (Josh Brolin) vs The Joker (Heath Ledger)

[The Joker]

Sorry, but this is just a dead end. You're not gonna prove or even successfully imply that people didn't find Thanos scary by proving that they did find Killmonger scary. That's a non-starter. I didn't say that Killmonger couldn't be scary, I said people didn't believe T'Challa was dead. That's not the same thing. (And if you believed it was the same thing, you'd have to admit that the Joker wasn't scary either. No one watching TDK fears for Batman's life even before the Joker disavows any intent to kill him).

The point isn't that the audience needs to believe the hero can die to find the villain scary, the point is that the fact that they do believe it in IW is one factor that gives Thanos extra heat.

(And if it's really the case that every great, popular villain will have large numbers of reviewers calling them scary, then show me all the reviews calling Loki scary.)

The situation didn't exist before Thanos did. The marketing, the online discussion...Thanos was always at the center.

You're missing my point. It wasn't my intention to prove people didn't find Killmonger scary, it was to show that reviewers tend to label great villains as scary or terrifying. It doesn't mean the the general audience found them scary, too. As you yourself said when you used Black Panther's apparent death in his own movie as completely removed of any fear because nobody expected him to be dead. Yet we have all these reviewers calling the villain of the piece scary.

In IW, the situation created ready made fear because people knew in advance that heroes could die, and that some actually would. Thanos didn't create that tension and fear. Loki could have been the villain and when he stabbed Tony you would still have heard those gasps in your theater. Let me repeat that is not me trying to say Thanos wasn't a great villain. He was. He just wasn't scary. At least not to me. And I've seen no evidence to suggest the fear for the heroes' lives came from him, and not the widely known knowledge that it was the end for some heroes long before IW came out. You could see it everywhere. People were afraid their favorite hero would die. Not because Thanos was coming. But because we were told it would be the end for some of them.

As for your request regarding Loki, here's a few examples;

Loki steps up as a terrifying villain to take on the Avengers in a plan to annihilate New York

http://collider.com/the-avengers-review/

Hiddleston returns as Loki, imbuing him with a creepy menace

https://www.commonsensemedia.org/movie-reviews/the-avengers

The Earth is under attack -- from spurned Norse God Loki played with scary menace by Tom Hiddleston

http://www.rediff.com/movies/review/review-avengers/20120425.htm

Hiddleston's Loki as an egomaniacal Norse god, and he is truly terrifying.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/the-avengers-includes-digital-copy-blu-ray-2012/5981103.p?skuId=5981103

Hiddleston plays Loki as a scary megalomaniac

https://momstart.com/whats-it-like-...s-the-avengers-interview-with-tom-hiddleston/

Hiddleston returns playing Loki with an unnerving menace

http://rewindcolumbus.com/2013/11/07/review-thor-the-dark-world-about-time-how-i-live-now/


And just for the sake of variety, another recent Thor villain, Hela, was also dubbed all kinds of scary in reviews;

The all powerful Hela can be very scary

https://www.commonsensemedia.org/movie-reviews/thor-ragnarok

Blanchett's Hela is one scary, goth-looking nemesis

http://cinemovie.tv/Reviews/thor-ragnarok-review-the-best-in-the-trilogy

Cate Blanchett's Hela is one of the highlights in a film filled with great characters. ... She's charismatic, beautiful and incredibly scary.

https://www.cbr.com/thor-ragnarok-best-worst-characters/

Cate Blanchett literally takes over the screen in a larger than life way as Hela. She is terrifying

http://www.ladiesliveandlearn.com/thor-ragnarok-is-marvel-movie-magic-review-thorragnarokevent/

Hemsworth faces a new and terrifying villain in Blanchett's Hela

http://voxatl.com/thor-ragnarok-disappointing-cgi/

Blanchett is incredible as the goddess of death, and frankly very scary

https://lolalambchops.com/thor-ragnarok-family-friendly-moms-review/

Blacnhett portrays Hela with both a scary and powerful charisma

https://thegameofnerds.com/2017/11/05/thor-ragnarok-a-spoiler-free-review/


So really just to put the final close on this, because I've made my point very clear, and we're just starting to repeat ourselves now; I didn't find Thanos scary. I haven't seen any sign that the audiences found him scary. That doesn't mean he wasn't a great villain. He was. But the fear for the heroes lives was there in pure raw form from all the fear mongering that happened long before IW came out. That is fact. The evidence is everywhere. I believe Thanos was just the instrument used to execute it. That fear for who would live or die would have been there no matter who the villain was because we knew it was end for some characters. It was just a case of seeing who was going to die.

 

[Vendark]

You're missing my point. It wasn't my intention to prove people didn't find Killmonger scary, it was to show that reviewers tend to label great villains as scary or terrifying.

No, I got it; that's why I asked for the Loki reviews.

And as to that, well...no offense, and obviously I'm biased, but it rather feels like you proved my point for me. Loki's been the primary villain in two films, including one of the biggest films of all time, and, by lowering the standard to include terms like "creepy" and "unnerving," you found all of six hits, one of which is from a site that specifically reviews movies with an eye toward advising parents whether the movie is appropriate for young children, one of which is an effectively anonymous review for people looking to buy the DVD from Best Buy, and one of which is a puff interview of Tom Hiddleston and therefore not a review at all.

And then you brought up Hela, presumably to try to bury the Loki results.

So really just to put the final close on this, because I've made my point very clear, and we're just starting to repeat ourselves now; I didn't find Thanos scary. I haven't seen any sign that the audiences found him scary. That doesn't mean he wasn't a great villain. He was. But the fear for the heroes lives was there in pure raw form from all the fear mongering that happened long before IW came out. That is fact. The evidence is everywhere. I believe Thanos was just the instrument used to execute it. That fear for who would live or die would have been there no matter who the villain was because we knew it was end for some characters. It was just a case of seeing who was going to die.

Yes, it's probably best we wrap this up, because if you insist there's no qualitative or quantitative difference in the online reaction to Thanos from most other villains vis a vis his fright factor then we're just gonna be talking past each other.

 

[Thör-El]

For me Thanos is the 4th or 5th best MCU villain behind Kingpin, Kilgrave, Loki and maybe Killmonger. He's also got to compete with Magneto (Fassbender), Ra's All Ghul (Neeson), Two Face (Eckhart) and other great non-MCU comic villains and I'm not sure Thanos is better.

I might reconsider that when Avengers 4 comes out but for now he isn't even the best Marvel villain in my book. He had a few great lines, they managed to make him seem honourable/sympathetic and the threat he poses to the Avengers makes for amazing spectacle and high stakes. The combination of Thanos obvious intelligence and his illogical Malthusian population cull plan just wasn't convincing for me though.

Heath Ledger's Joker on the other hand stands out as one of the best villains in all of film, not just comic book adaptations. His performance was phenomenal and the way he's written as a deranged anarchist who finds mundane organised crime dull and wants nothing more than to corrupt the incorruptible and watch the world burn is perfect for a grounded take on the Batman mythos.

 

[The Joker]

No, I got it; that's why I asked for the Loki reviews.

And as to that, well...no offense, and obviously I'm biased, but it rather feels like you proved my point for me. Loki's been the primary villain in two films, including one of the biggest films of all time, and, by lowering the standard to include terms like "creepy" and "unnerving," you found all of six hits, one of which is from a site that specifically reviews movies with an eye toward advising parents whether the movie is appropriate for young children, one of which is an effectively anonymous review for people looking to buy the DVD from Best Buy, and one of which is a puff interview of Tom Hiddleston and therefore not a review at all.

And then you brought up Hela, presumably to try to bury the Loki results.

Yes, it's probably best we wrap this up, because if you insist there's no qualitative or quantitative difference in the online reaction to Thanos from most other villains vis a vis his fright factor then we're just gonna be talking past each other.

No offense taken. I think its cute that you think I tried to 'bury' Loki's with Hela's. I could give you more Loki ones if I wanted, but we're done here. The reason I posted Hela's ones along with Loki's, as you well know as I clearly stated so, is because it was for the sake of variety to add to the evidence and give you another example of another recent MCU villain you don't see regarded as scary, but has been named so many times in the reviews. It helps if you can show different examples of something when making your point. If you're trying to say creepy and unnerving don't serve the same meaning as scary, then you're just trying to split hairs in an attempt to strengthen your view.

We're already talking past each other now. We're done here. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Vendark]

No offense taken. I think its cute that you think I tried to 'bury' Loki's with Hela's. I could give you more Loki ones if I wanted, but we're done here. The reason I posted Hela's ones along with Loki's, as you well know as I clearly stated so, is because it was for the sake of variety to add to the evidence and give you another example of another recent MCU villain you don't see regarded as scary, but has been named so many times in the reviews. It helps if you can show different examples of something when making your point. If you're trying to say creepy and unnerving don't serve the same meaning as scary, then you're just trying to split hairs in an attempt to strengthen your view.

I think it's cute you thought you wouldn't get called on it!

"I could post a ton more examples for Loki, but I won't, even though it's obviously the most effective retort I could make since it directly counters your argument; in fact, I will further defy expectations and demonstrate my contempt by including the weakest possible examples, including a site for moms trying to protect their kids that merely calls him "creepy," and I will then change the subject by presenting a higher number of examples for a different villain who is demonstrably much less acclaimed than Loki, which you would think runs a bit counter to the argument I was making that villains get called scary only because they're well-received but, oh well!"

We're already talking past each other now. We're done here. Thanks for the discussion.

You're welcome, and likewise.

 

[spider-neil]

For me Thanos is the 4th or 5th best MCU villain behind Kingpin, Kilgrave, Loki and maybe Killmonger. He's also got to compete with Magneto (Fassbender), Ra's All Ghul (Neeson), Two Face (Eckhart) and other great non-MCU comic villains and I'm not sure Thanos is better.

I might reconsider that when Avengers 4 comes out but for now he isn't even the best Marvel villain in my book. He had a few great lines, they managed to make him seem honourable/sympathetic and the threat he poses to the Avengers makes for amazing spectacle and high stakes. The combination of Thanos obvious intelligence and his illogical Malthusian population cull plan just wasn't convincing for me though.

Heath Ledger's Joker on the other hand stands out as one of the best villains in all of film, not just comic book adaptations. His performance was phenomenal and the way he's written as a deranged anarchist who finds mundane organised crime dull and wants nothing more than to corrupt the incorruptible and watch the world burn is perfect for a grounded take on the Batman mythos.

Thanos is heads and tails better than 2-face who for me was rushed and brings down the third act of TDK. Most of my problems with TDK involve 2-face.

 

[Vendark]

Thanos is heads and tails better than 2-face who for me was rushed and brings down the third act of TDK. Most of my problems with TDK involve 2-face.

Yeah, Dent is great but Two Face is awful.

 

[spider-neil]

Yeah, Dent is great but Two Face is awful.

Nolan has never read a 2-face comic. He can't have. The characterization is completely off and not for the better.

 

[Vendark]

Nolan has never read a 2-face comic. He can't have. The characterization is completely off and not for the better.

The character is a challenge, I think, because he really needs to be the main antagonist to work; he needs that kind of screen-time. But I don't think he's proven to be popular enough that producers would want to take the chance of having him carry the movie. So he gets relegated to side villain, gets panned, and lo and behold you have a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

The Long Halloween (often regarded as the best Two-Face story) handles Two-Face in a very similar matter to Nolan, where he only becomes Two-Face at the very end to go on a murderous rampage. The main difference is that in TLH Two-Face turns himself in once he's gotten his revenge, instead of going after Gordon's family and getting killed in the process. The influences of TLH are very apparent in TDK in how it handles the Gordon/Batman/Dent relationship throughout the film.

Personally, I think the only thing preventing Nolan's Two-Face from being widely regarded as one of the great CBM villains is THE CBM villain to end all CBM villains being in the same movie.

 

[Vendark]

The Long Halloween (often regarded as the best Two-Face story) handles Two-Face in a very similar matter to Nolan, where he only becomes Two-Face at the very end to go on a murderous rampage. The main difference is that in TLH Two-Face turns himself in once he's gotten his revenge, instead of going after Gordon's family and getting killed in the process. The influences of TLH are very apparent in TDK in how it handles the Gordon/Batman/Dent relationship throughout the film.

Personally, I think the only thing preventing Nolan's Two-Face from being widely regarded as one of the great CBM villains is THE CBM villain to end all CBM villains being in the same movie.

Isn't Eye of the Beholder usually considered the best Two-Face story?

Anyway, another key difference is that in TLH Two-Face actually goes after the person most responsible for victimizing him instead of giving him a pass after a two minute conversation and a coin flip. There's not enough work done in TDK to sell that moment.

(And TLH doesn't really try to sell the psychology behind the coin flip, which is smart because just as in TDK there's not enough time to make that work. We see Two Face flip the coin twice in TLH, and both times it lands scar-side up (or we're lead to believe it does, since the second time we don't actually see it happen), so we don't actually know that Two Face would have let his targets live under any circumstances. Maybe he's just an excellent coin flipper and the whole thing is theater.)

 

[Infinity9999x]

The Long Halloween (often regarded as the best Two-Face story) handles Two-Face in a very similar matter to Nolan, where he only becomes Two-Face at the very end to go on a murderous rampage. The main difference is that in TLH Two-Face turns himself in once he's gotten his revenge, instead of going after Gordon's family and getting killed in the process. The influences of TLH are very apparent in TDK in how it handles the Gordon/Batman/Dent relationship throughout the film.

Personally, I think the only thing preventing Nolan's Two-Face from being widely regarded as one of the great CBM villains is THE CBM villain to end all CBM villains being in the same movie.

TLH also sets up Two Face being a dissociative personality, and that he truly is obsessed with fate and duality. They also further explore Two Face in Dark Victory.

I love TDK, but my biggest comic fan gripe is that Two Face (not Harvey) got a shallow showing. He was essentially just Harvey out for revenge, and that isn't Two Face.

Which is a bummer because I would have LOVED to see a Nolan take on dissociative personality disorder given what he did with Memento.

 

[spider-neil]

For me, the best rendition of 2-face is in the animated series. The slap dash speed at which 2-face turns infuriated me. Completely unearned and unbelievable. The most upstanding of men turning on a dime (no pun intended). Sorry not buying. Only the strength of the previous 2 acts stops me from checking out of the movie completely.
So saying 2-face is a better villain than Than Thanos is hilarious. One is a well rounded and nauced villain, the other is rushed with questionable motivations.

 

[spider-neil]

Also here is a highly controversial opinion, Nolan could have ended the movie with Joker escaping and leaning out the car window. Everything that follows could (and maybe should have been pushed into a sequel). After that point (Joker's escape) you don't need Joker any more. Center the whole movie around Dent's fall from grace and 2-face's rise. That would be a far better movie than Batman quitting for 8 years (like he would ever do that).

 

[Batmannerism]

Also here is a highly controversial opinion, Nolan could have ended the movie with Joker escaping and leaning out the car window. Everything that follows could (and maybe should have been pushed into a sequel). After that point (Joker's escape) you don't need Joker any more. Center the whole movie around Dent's fall from grace and 2-face's rise. That would be a far better movie than Batman quitting for 8 years (like he would ever do that).

I would see that movie - although I couldn't handle Joker escaping at the end, got to have Batman catch up with him and kick his ass, just for the sake of....well something, but it would feel wrong if he got away.

But having Dent in a coma, and in the film's final moment having him wake up and grab the coin...... chills.

 

[spider-neil]

I would see that movie - although I couldn't handle Joker escaping at the end, got to have Batman catch up with him and kick his ass, just for the sake of....well something, but it would feel wrong if he got away.

But having Dent in a coma, and in the film's final moment having him wake up and grab the coin...... chills.

That would have been a good final shot.

 

[Mjölnir]

It would definitely have been much better if they saved Two-Face for the third film. As it was I didn't like him at all in TDK but there was certainly potential to do something good with the character using that buildup.