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BOUGHT/THOUGHT "End Of War Special" Feb 21st

Incidentally, here is the exact ending the Joss Whedon had actually proposed.

http://whedonesque.com/comments/12541#more
Joss Whedon said:
Hi and briefly: I walked into the infamous Marvel meeting, where they pitched me civil War. Cool enuf, sez I. Then they pitched the end they were currently going with, wherein the woman whose son is killed breaks up the fight between Cap and Iron Man, much like Joanne Dru in "Red River". Not cool enuf, sez I. If the whole thing rests on Cap and Tony's conflict, and they're gonna fight, I sez sez I, somebody's gotta win. I just pitched that Cap got past Tony's armor and started beating the poo out of him -- thus becoming exactly what Tony had called them all: a superpowered guy taking it out on a powerless human. Cap realizes this and lay down his arms. (But he wins. Eat that, Stark.) That is literally the tale. I said looking around at the destruction of Manhattan didn't have much resonance -- these guys destroy Manhattan all the time! It was the personal act of putting his fist into the face of his powerless one-time friend that would Make Cap feel like a bully, a monster, a Nazi and kiddies, I didn't say much else. (Except that a fight between titans broken up by the 'voice of reason' before it ends is a lame fight indeed.) I didn't know Civil War was gonna envelop the whole universe for a year. I didn't know the entire face of Marvel was changing, and though I heard pitches of what's to come, I don't know what stuck. I think I've been given too much credit for all this. Which is sweet, but I wanted to save you all endless speculation. Which I have done, and now back to work. -j.
joss | February 24, 14:36 CET
Discuss for yourselves just how much this resembles the actualy ending.
 
Again, CW #7 would have worked out better had they not spent the first half of the event making the Pro SHRA into such fascist *****ebags. They cared more about tricking readers than telling a cohesive story, and the work suffered for it. ANNIHILATION didn't have that problem.

Marvel's editorial board needs to think like storytellers, and not corporate hacks, and soon.
 
Moments...not storylines. MAN, that is EXACTLY how I felt about HoM and now Civil War. These writers are so focused on WOW moments, that they let the actual storyline suffer like hell for it.

The moments happen themselves, the STORY is what is hard to create. "Ultron, we would have words with thee" is only as strong as it is, due to the power of the story going on around it.

AWESOME review, and dead on.
 
Well, I'm out of town this week, and I didn't want to screw my LCS, so i just bought Civil War #7 and some trades.

Civil War was great. Reading the issue, all I could think was how Cap was proving Tony's point, so the end really was interesting. In a way, Cap really comes off like V from V for Vendetta: he fights for the people, but he makes mistakes too. I liked that neither side walked away smelling like roses. Hercules and the Punisher had my favorite moments, though. I love that Millar gave both characters such large roles. I would've liked to see Spider-Man really get into it with Tony, but getting to see him taking down so many other characters was cool, too. Loved seeing the page with the New Avengers, too.

I'm very eager for the hardcover. This is something I'll definitely want to share.

Also read Maus Volume 2. Man, that was really depressing. I was taken aback by Spiegalman's assertion that, in a way, his father really didn't survive the war.

Daredevil: The Man without Fear was pretty good. I'm not sure how I feel about Matt pretty much killing multiple people throughout the story. Seems very out of character, even if the deaths weren't exactly direct. Reading this, all I could think about was how badly everyone overreacted about Matt "killing" Quesada in the movie.

Ultimate Spider-Man: The Warriors was fun. I really love Bag's Ultimate Moon Knight. He easily stole the show.

Still have Ultimate Six and Pride of Baghdad to read on my flight home.
 
Again, CW #7 would have worked out better had they not spent the first half of the event making the Pro SHRA into such fascist *****ebags. They cared more about tricking readers than telling a cohesive story, and the work suffered for it.

Indeed. Completely agreed. The school exploding. Spiderman unmasking. Clor killing foster. Spidey defecting, all moments that were boxes to be ticked.

Of course there is a difference between tricking and downright lying and marvel played that card too. (clor and about not needing tie ins),


I should point out on the whole I liked CW (as far as something on this scale goes) and think some of the criticism it has received has been a tad crazy at times. On the other hand there are some significant flaws from an editorial standpoint that reek of intereferance.
 
Indeed. Completely agreed. The school exploding. Spiderman unmasking. Clor killing foster. Spidey defecting, all moments that were boxes to be ticked.

Of course there is a difference between tricking and downright lying and marvel played that card too. (clor and about not needing tie ins),


I should point out on the whole I liked CW (as far as something on this scale goes) and think some of the criticism it has received has been a tad crazy at times. On the other hand there are some significant flaws from an editorial standpoint that reek of intereferance.

I may be wrong, but sometimes I get the distinct impression that Marvel's editorial decisions are planned from the viewpoint that the audience is some sort of adversary that has to be manipulated and overcome. Admittedly, some of that is our own fault for using the Internet to be very hostile from a distance; I'll admit to that to. I'd never have the balls to lash out at Bendis in person for USM than I do here. But sometimes I think this results in some sort of tunnel vision where they put the story aside and it simply becomes a massive attempt at misdirection vs. an actual story. I also believe Marvel reaps what they sow; they purposefully incite fans to get a maximum reaction. One could argue this is a chicken/egg syndrome.

Both companies need to stop just funnelling one event into the other without any sense of a finale.

As the X-Axis review noted, in the end the Unmasking and Clor had very little to do with the actual story.

It should have been planned better to not make the Pro SHRA so guallingly rotten and then developped gradually. You can't root for Gulags, pre-emptive arrests (MINORITY REPORT played with that same concept; should you arrest people for things they haven't done yet just because some higher power says they're a danger?), using vicious killers as stormtroopers, torturing captives, etc. The ending pretended all that hadn't happened in way. It wasn't just Millar, Jenkins and others gave that impression too; before the Casualties of War One-Shot, only MS. MARVEL made the Pro SHRA side not look rotten. Or at least as rotten.

The "writing moments, not a story" is also reminiscent of a lot of movies. As the worlds of mainstream entertainment and comics continue to mix we unfortunately will see a lot of it. All writers have some list of their fave moments from stories. What they forget is that the rest of the story has a role in that too. An explosion will always get attention; but the context, lead up and aftermath to that explosion are the difference between a heart-wrenching tragedy or a mindless special effect.
 
I may be wrong, but sometimes I get the distinct impression that Marvel's editorial decisions are planned from the viewpoint that the audience is some sort of adversary that has to be manipulated and overcome.

I agree in a sense, but I think its a comic book wide thing. Like they know doing certain things will incite a negative or positive reaction. Oh we're killing Ted Kord, that will piss people off. Oh, lets unmask Spider-Man, that will be controversial.
 
I really really REALLY enjoyed The Spirit and Illuminati this week.

Basically everything this week was solid. FIRE PHASERS!
 
I may be wrong, but sometimes I get the distinct impression that Marvel's editorial decisions are planned from the viewpoint that the audience is some sort of adversary that has to be manipulated and overcome.

I tend to think it's kind of like poking a bear with a stick. You'll get a reaction sure but eventually you'll get mauled.

I'll concede to enjoying (on some level) the reactionary nonsense, it's when it comes at the expense of the story or blatant lying that I have problems.

Both companies need to stop just funnelling one event into the other without any sense of a finale.

Dear. god. yes.
The more I think about caps words (they're arresting steve rogers) the more I think this story simply hasn't ended. As you've pointed out it can feel hollow when there is no villain to triumph over, it's even more hollow when our heroes can't actually resolve their differences by the end of the mini.


As the X-Axis review noted, in the end the Unmasking and Clor had very little to do with the actual story.

If you didn't read ASM one could make a convicing case for the unmaking have nothing to do with the story.

It should have been planned better to not make the Pro SHRA so guallingly rotten and then developped gradually. You can't root for Gulags, pre-emptive arrests (MINORITY REPORT played with that same concept; should you arrest people for things they haven't done yet just because some higher power says they're a danger?), using vicious killers as stormtroopers, torturing captives, etc. The ending pretended all that hadn't happened in way. It wasn't just Millar, Jenkins and others gave that impression too; before the Casualties of War One-Shot, only MS. MARVEL made the Pro SHRA side not look rotten. Or at least as rotten.

The inconsistancy between some titles (ie in ASM the prison was permanent in CW temporary) didn't help this. That aside the main issue I have is with letting bullseye and osborn in, there are plenty of villains that aren't mass murdering psychos if you need to go down that route of having a trained back up army (which I can at least understant) hire villains that don't kill for fun (taskmaster is a decent fit for example, he'll do what he's paid to do).
In the interests of fairness there were some bits in CW in frontline and CW itself that could be described as pro pro-side but the problem was they didn't try to justify the Act itself but the mistakes that pro-side had made (ie when fosters widow talks to iron man it doesn't justify the Act just his killing). Plus we really needed some panels of tony arguing against the less savory aspects if the act to balance him and it out (ie drafting).
 
Well it couldn't have taken place that recently if Xavier still has his powers. House of M was only a few months ago??


Hmm, a lot of HoM events could be undone very easily if the 6 gems are in "trustworthy" hands.
 
I didn't have a problem with Cap looking around, deciding that the fight should end. What I had a problem with is that everyone stops fighting. I mean, come on. You just had Namor and all of his warrior join the battle, and he's going to stop and say, "Cap took the ball and went home. I guess the game is over." Namor would easily have continued fighting, especially considering he knows that Iron Man and the government will be coming after them next.

Now, my real reason for coming on the Bought/Thought thread was to push a very good comic I just finished reading last night. I had been buying Wildstorm's World Storm line-up; and, while most of it has done very little to impress me, I just read Stormwatch: Post Human Division #1-4. This is just an excellent comic. Each issue is a self-contained story; but, it does have a sense that each is building on the other for something really big to happen further down the road. I don't know a darn thing about Stormwatch; but, it didn't matter. I quickly got into the characters, and the writer does a great job of telling the story with the use of dialogue. Each issue is not a quick read, like some comics that seem to only take 5 minutes to get through. It's filled with dialogue and characterization. This book definitely gets a 10/10.
 
Yeah, pretty much. Disassembled took place about six months before House of M. House of M took place about a month or two before CW.

Wait a minute! Did somebody at Marvel say that House of M took place just a month or two before Civil War? I know Marvel-time can be weird, but that just seems too short to me.

BTW, Xavier was living on Genosha (Excalibur v.2) before Disassembled happened. Remember, Magneto brought Wanda back to Genosha. So the Illuminati story had to take place before Xavier went to Genosha.
 
Wait a minute! Did somebody at Marvel say that House of M took place just a month or two before Civil War? I know Marvel-time can be weird, but that just seems too short to me.

BTW, Xavier was living on Genosha (Excalibur v.2) before Disassembled happened. Remember, Magneto brought Wanda back to Genosha. So the Illuminati story had to take place before Xavier went to Genosha.

Did it? They never showed where they picked Xavier up at. He could have commuted from Genosha for all we know. **Edit: This whole thing came about as a result of She-Hulk taking the Power Gem from Titania and giving it to Reed, which took place after Disassembled.

And Yeah, House of M only happened a couple of months ago. These events are all back to back to back. hell, they'll probally only be a couple of months (if that) between the end of CW and the start of WWH.
 
The only cool thing was seeing Spidey giving Reed and several other Pro-Regs an ass whipping.
 
I got my comics extra late this week and I know pretty much everything that could be said has been said. The chances of people reading this is minimal but I'm gonna vent anyway:

Aquaman #49: I have to admit that the Fisherman's story has been pretty interesting. The art is lackluster, but that's not saying much since it's been that way for a while. A great issue for the new Aqua fans and kinda irksome for Orin fans that an obscure villain gets a cool remake after he's "gone". I was glad to see that they remembered Fisherman's confrontation with Blue Devil.

52 #42: 52's last weeks continue to deliver. I have no problems with Ralph sacrificing himself to trap one of DC's major evil forces. It's a more fitting end than someone seeing him only as one of the JLI's buffoons and giving him an unfitting end. Looking forward to finding out how Faust escaped from the Tower and if Neron managed to do it also.

Civil War #7: *B!t¢h Pick of the Week!* I'm extremely disappointed with the outcome of all the hoopla. It frustrated me even more after I read the Joe Friday's and found out that Cap's downfall was planned from the beginning. What else can I say? I can't say that the characters were mischaracterized because this is how Marvel has decided that they are now. I'm glad Marvel brought in more people thanks to this event.

If I let go of my 2 decades of reading comics expectations I can see how this was a "cool" event for new readers. I could blindly believe that this is how these heroes act when pushed to the wall. I could swallow that now that the heroes are with the government the government isn't the mostly asshoulish institution that it has been throughout all these years. I could share the pipe dream that now that they're together they're gonna build a utopia or at least move towards that. Why? Simple, because Marvel takes pride in their universe being "real" and bash DC for how crappy their more fantastic universe is. In short, to me, the ending was extremely lackluster and many of the things it's setting up go against how the MU is setup.

I can agree that this was a bold move. To those that think this is innovative or Marvel has gone where no one has gone before then I just have to say that you haven't read enough. There have been many other stories where heroes are government officials, some of the non DC/Marvel companies have universes where this is the default universe. And the utopia thing......Squadron Supreme, anyone?

Helmet of Fate-Black Alice: Pretty cool story. At least it fleshes out Black Alice a bit and teaches her a much needed lesson on what abusing power can do.

Immortal Iron Fist #3:
Good issue. The story is still entertaining despite the long rooftop navigating narrative. The legacy aspect has added tons of depth to the Iron Fist legacy, IMO, and I hope it's something that isn't just a setup for the first arc but rather something prevalent through the whole series.

Illuminati #2: *B!t¢h Pick of the Week!!* "NO! Bad writer, BAD WRITER!!!"~Slaps writer's hand~ Is what I wanted to do after reading this. I was expecting some elven writing to appear on the inside of the glove after collecting all the gems and for Reed to start calling it my precioussss. I really hope that the Illuminati members lost the gems shortly after been assigned to guard them because, otherwise, storylines after this retcon really suffer for it. I had problems with the way some of the characters were depicted in ish 1, but here the story was complete nonsense. I'd love it if the writer remembered that Black Bolt has more to him than just a destructive voice.

Silent War #2: *B!t¢h Pick of the Week* If you're not reading this mini I have to praise you for your lack of taste. What are you waiting for? Go out and buy it!! If you want a story that makes you want to care about the character and you feel a building sense of dread because of how well the story is developed then this is the comic for you. It has a couple of corny lines, but they're part of the what makes comic books what they are. This'll be all over by next issue when BB uses the Space Gem to get the crystals back from the Pentagon and out of Pietro.:rolleyes: BTW, psyche on the whole biatch of the week thing.;)
 
The single best part of the Illuminati issue was Reed's reaction to the reality gem. "Wha? Your armor doesn't protect you from a RIFT IN REALITY??"

Oh sweet lord, these are the people building our clones. BE AFRAID.
 
The single best part of the Illuminati issue was Reed's reaction to the reality gem. "Wha? Your armor doesn't protect you from a RIFT IN REALITY??"

Oh sweet lord, these are the people building our clones. BE AFRAID.

Yup, this is the same guy that went to a Skrull planet with no inventions whatsoever yet can turn an imaginary catastrophe prediction formula into reality.:whatever:
 
I liked how in Civil War, Reed was Tony's whipping boy, but in Illuminati, Reed wore the pants.
 
Aquaman #49: I have to admit that the Fisherman's story has been pretty interesting. The art is lackluster, but that's not saying much since it's been that way for a while. A great issue for the new Aqua fans and kinda irksome for Orin fans that an obscure villain gets a cool remake after he's "gone". I was glad to see that they remembered Fisherman's confrontation with Blue Devil.

Silent War #2: *B!t¢h Pick of the Week* If you're not reading this mini I have to praise you for your lack of taste. What are you waiting for? Go out and buy it!! If you want a story that makes you want to care about the character and you feel a building sense of dread because of how well the story is developed then this is the comic for you. It has a couple of corny lines, but they're part of the what makes comic books what they are. This'll be all over by next issue when BB uses the Space Gem to get the crystals back from the Pentagon and out of Pietro.:rolleyes: BTW, psyche on the whole biatch of the week thing.;)

Aquaman has been pretty damn good, I just wish they could go back and get a better artists, I hope Tad keeps Aquaman up to par with the rest of this run.

Silent War is just all types of badass, and Pietro is a sick mother****er.
 
I agree in a sense, but I think its a comic book wide thing. Like they know doing certain things will incite a negative or positive reaction. Oh we're killing Ted Kord, that will piss people off. Oh, lets unmask Spider-Man, that will be controversial.

Indeed, and after 2+ years it is growing annoying. Maybe it's more honest than the jovial "Bullpen" facade of the Silver and Bronze Age, but I am getting annoyed by it. A story has to be about more than inciting a reaction. Again, an explosion will always generate attention. But context, build-up, follow-through, execution, and aftermath make the difference between a special effect and a moment. And, especially, a story is NOT a series of moments.

I tend to think it's kind of like poking a bear with a stick. You'll get a reaction sure but eventually you'll get mauled.

Any class clown can get a reaction. A writer has to tell a cohesive story and it is astonishing that professionals could misread things that poorly. If they'd cared more about flow than about shocking moments or misleading readers, they could have had a stronger story. I mean, it was obvious how ANNIHILATION was ending by #2. But did Giffen screw with his story to "fool" people? Not really. The work stood by itself. No needing Millar, Joe Q, or Tom B. to come onto Newsarama and need 2-3 articles defending crap. This is supposed to be Marvel's beacon for a new age, and any reaction that is not excited doesn't bode well.

I'll concede to enjoying (on some level) the reactionary nonsense, it's when it comes at the expense of the story or blatant lying that I have problems.

Yeah.

Dear. god. yes.
The more I think about caps words (they're arresting steve rogers) the more I think this story simply hasn't ended. As you've pointed out it can feel hollow when there is no villain to triumph over, it's even more hollow when our heroes can't actually resolve their differences by the end of the mini.

Events are simply steroids to pump up the main titles and they usually were not always the deepest on actual story, but we have entered an age where the Big Two are so eager to keep the train moving that they forget the passangers need some stops. By all means have aftermath and whatnot, but you have to have a beginning, middle, and end, not beginning, muddle, middle, muddle, link to new beginning, mix, repeat. This was what drove the 90's into the ground. INFINITY GAUNTLET kept getting crappier and crappier sequals for instance (INFINITY WAR, INFINITY CRUSADE, INFINITY CASH IN). I get the impression sometimes that the big two are so constantly competing and attempting to keep sales high and everything interconnected that they are losing sight on delivering a satisfying story that works on all levels and doesn't need your entire editorial elite coming online to defend the flaws.

They need to stop treating fan "satisfaction" as some unholy demon and sacrificing a good story to keep people guessing. Joe Q cites ARMAGEDDON 2001 as a bad DC blunder but CW in some ways was worse because it could have worked had they not been so eager to misslead people that they made their winning side into unrootable fascists, just so Cap can get misty eyed and forgive their sins, going, "You fascists have a point." Magneto ALWAYS had a point and the X-Men didn't surrender to him. Dr. Doom just wants to spread the "nirvanna" he made Latvernia into for the rest of the world and you don't see everyone lining up to join him.

If you didn't read ASM one could make a convicing case for the unmaking have nothing to do with the story.

I'd argue that all it really contributed was an easy hook to give something for writers to play with for a year, because lord knows Spidey is tapped. I just am numb to it all now. Unmasking, killing May, I don't care anymore.



The inconsistancy between some titles (ie in ASM the prison was permanent in CW temporary) didn't help this. That aside the main issue I have is with letting bullseye and osborn in, there are plenty of villains that aren't mass murdering psychos if you need to go down that route of having a trained back up army (which I can at least understant) hire villains that don't kill for fun (taskmaster is a decent fit for example, he'll do what he's paid to do).
In the interests of fairness there were some bits in CW in frontline and CW itself that could be described as pro pro-side but the problem was they didn't try to justify the Act itself but the mistakes that pro-side had made (ie when fosters widow talks to iron man it doesn't justify the Act just his killing). Plus we really needed some panels of tony arguing against the less savory aspects if the act to balance him and it out (ie drafting).

Not only Bullseye and Goblin, but Venom, Lady Deathstrike, etc. Agreed on the lack of cohesion and they seriously overplayed their hand in the beginning.

Yeah, Spidey was badass in #7.

Definately. Taskmaster had some wins, and Herc beating Clor was pretty. CW had a lot of good moments. But a parade of moments is not a story. It's a parade.
 
Indeed, and after 2+ years it is growing annoying. Maybe it's more honest than the jovial "Bullpen" facade of the Silver and Bronze Age, but I am getting annoyed by it. A story has to be about more than inciting a reaction. Again, an explosion will always generate attention. But context, build-up, follow-through, execution, and aftermath make the difference between a special effect and a moment. And, especially, a story is NOT a series of moments.

Yeah, I mean you take the unmasking for example and see that CW couldve worked without it, I mean its not like Pete's identity was all that big a secret within the superhero community. But doing it on live tv for the whole world to see? Oh snap! Controversy.
 

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