vinny2
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"Catalysts" Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Captain Planet!
- Start date
vinny2
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Oh my God. I've been reading that eight episode thing all day and I JUST got it.
stillanerd
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Right. It could play out that while MJ does genuinely like Pete, she may feel he'd make a better friend than a boyfriend at this point in her life. Or, if she does really like Peter as more than a friend and he and Gwen end up getting together, her response, based on what we see so far, could be to say, "I'm really happy for you, tiger. And just because we're no longer dating doesn't mean we can't be friends, right?" Or maybe, we might have a scenario in which MJ tries to help Gwen win over Peter, knowing full well that they'd be a good match-up.Then, if Gwen does, lets say die or moves away for good after the death of her dad, then MJ could be around to comfort Peter and things will blossom from there. Hey, with this show, it could easily happen.
Little Foot
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Why do you suppose that? How would she be able to observe or deduce that, especially since she has not come into direct contact with Spider-Man? I mean, to stress, I am not at all familiar with the comics, but it seems to me that it would be a really big logical stretch for her to know--it would strain the needed suspension of disbelief.
Spider-ManHero12
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lol.
Web-Head408
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Just a correction, your not crazy about the art direction the series has. Animation is different thing, the animation is way better than SM TAS' sometime's stiff animation.This is a pretty smart show and I continue to be impressed by it. Watching it is like seeing some of the old Essentials come to life; classic Spidey throughout.
There's a decent sized character roster that doesn't get skimped on development, the action scenes are great and the storytelling is ...spectacular.
This episode was right up there. Green Goblin is my favorite villain so far. The exchanges between he and Spider-Man were great. MJ made quite the impression and it'll be interesting to see how Gwen fits into this looming triangle.
Everything else I could say has pretty much been covered. They manage to squeeze an awful lot into 30 minutes. Still not crazy about the animation, but I'm definitely loving the show. It's reigning supreme in my DVR.
vinny2
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Lee/Ditko comics again. Mary Jane saw Spider-Man (going in or coming out. I can't remember) of Peter's window the night Uncle Ben died.
Dread
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Seven episodes in and not one of them so far did I think was bad or even mediocre in quality, and this is within the first season. This is something that is not common (even Timmverse shows like BATMAN BEYOND or JUSTICE LEAGUE had at least one dud after 7 episodes, at least one mediocre outing) and worth appreciating. After a 2 week wait (and thankfully, that rerun week came when the Pope visited NYC and my local station pre-empted Spidey for that visit last week, otherwise I would have been very pissed). "Catalysts" is another such episode and the only downside of consistently good episodes is some of the reviews get predictable.
There are only so many ways and times you can say something about appreciating the show's embracing of subplots from one episode to the next, TMNT style. Not even the 90's series did that this strongly until Season 2. New characters keep sneaking into the show to flesh out the Spidey-verse every week, and while the obvious one is Green Goblin, arguably Spider-Man's biggest arch nemesis (at least until Dr. Octopus and Venom come along), that new character is John Jameson, J.J.'s air force son who is slated to go into space, the only guy the old man seems to approve of in his life. Naturally, though, MJ herself gets more time to shine here as she attends the dance with a very smitten and "out of his league" feeling Peter. Vanessa Marshall voices the buxom red-heard and does a bang-up job depicting someone with confidence and more of a spirited attitude than the more humble Gwen (Lacey Chabert), which is how it began in the comics and it is great to finally, FINALLY, after, what, 30-40 years, to see it depicted well on any screen. The movies certainly never captured that dynamic (by the time Gwen showed up in SM3, MJ was already Peter's "destined" eternal lover and Peter only seemed to date Gwen because the black costume wanted to). Vanessa seems much more natural in the role than the 90's Sara Ballantine (although Lisa Loeb from the MTV show actually wasn't a bad MJ).
The episode takes a different pace than some others, opening up with Spider-Man battling Green Goblin at a gala that is obviously not the Midtown High dance and being seemingly overwhelmed by Gobby's insane tactics and barrage of themed weapons, from exploding (and cackling!) pumpkin bombs and razor-sharp "batarangs" that almost put Bruce Wayne's to shame. Naturally Spidey questions how a night that was supposed to be the best of his life could go so wrong, and then most of the episode is done in flashback. The 2k3 TMNT series seemed to do this 90% of the time, almost to the point of parody, but SS-M did this sparingly so it was effective, and allowed us to see Green Goblin, arguably the star attraction of the episode, right off the bat. As with all of the character designs by Cheeks Galloway, it is exaggerated and extreme, and one will either like it or not. I thought it animated well and while I do miss the Romita Sr. themed designs of the 80's cartoons and even the 90's one, this design did try to incorporate modern elements (like the kevlar armor) and made the fiend look goblin-like. The only down-point was the pumpkin belt buckle; I know it was probably meant to break up the color scheme (the same reason Batman's belt was yellow for the longest time), but it often got distracting. The battle between the pair was thrilling and different than the battles Spider-Man has had with other rogues, which keeps each one fresh, every bad guy brings a new element to overcome. Naturally the hardest thing to do against Goblin is tag him with any attack considering his dynamic glider (which had the retractable spear at the head, which was cool) and the arsenal. Steven Blum voices Goblin and does a bang-up job. Goblin hasn't sounded this good since Neil Ross and I think Blum did a better job. As Spidey noted, Goblin ranked high in the banter dept.
But before all that, Peter Parker was able to dazzle everyone at the Midtown Dance by arriving with MJ; even to the point of making head jock Flash Thompson jealous. When Flash jokes about their "bet", perhaps trying to ruin things for Peter by mentioning that he bragged about "bringing a 20 year old" (i.e. Betty Brant), and MJ doesn't miss a beat, turning the tables on Flash. Of course Gwen was able to turn around some wordplay on Flash herself, but not quite this spontaneously. Gwen, on the other hand, is hurt because now she believes Peter was lying to her about not going to the dance and her romantic interests are one-sided, and Eddie Brock is once again irked by his friend's selfishness. I thought it was a bit of a gaffe that Peter introduces MJ to Harry and the other jocks, but not to Gwen or Brock, who should also seemingly be his "best friends". Peter in fact didn't even seem to react to them at the dance together, considering Brock technically was an 18 year old college freshman (and thus an "older guy" for Gwen). MJ is interested in interacting with the "popular crowd" and when Gloria mentions M3's drama dept., MJ is interested. But the red-head makes sure not to ignore Peter, at least so long as he is there.
Many of us were naturally expecting a conflict when Peter inevitably has to ditch his dates, Prince Adam style, to become Spider-Man somewhere. Some people were already pre-angsting for Peter because "MJ would immediately think he was a flake right off the bat". Well, the writers aren't that predictable. Peter informs MJ about his job calling him and MJ isn't even miffed. She lives for the moment, and just settles with dancing with the other eager jocks while Peter is away, preferring to enjoy herself and roll with the punches than get upset. I thought this was a good twist, to have MJ actually be understanding from the get-go, since most of Peter's girlfriends tend to get predictable in that, "where were you/how DARE you leave me" nagging.
This episode, as a curious note, imitated something the 90's show did with introducing Green Goblin. By that I mean offering Harry as a red herring as to who the Goblin is. In the 90's show, he always happened to be a beat behind Goblin and was investigating his lair; here Harry hangs out in dark alleys drinking this mysterious green serum from a vial. But I seriously doubt that it is him simply because Harry in no way would know who L. T. Lincoln/Tombstone/Big Man is. The Green Goblin, as per his comic debut, seeks to control the underworld and wants to start by taking out the Big Man. Harry would never know about that; Norman would. Still, something is going on with Harry, as life seems to hand him one defeat after the next no matter what he does (not even being RICH can keep Gloria Grant away from Kong) and obviously there will be a breaking point. I liked that Goblin's identity is a subplot and wasn't wrapped up this episode (even if most of us know who it is) and I liked how this version has begun more like the Ditko version. In the 90's series, Norman becomes the Goblin to avenge sins, real, imagined, or exaggerated, committed against the Osborn family. While that is well and good, this show seems to love modernizing the Ditko era, which meant having Gobby play at being crime-lord. Some say this angle makes little sense and seems too "generic", but considering Green Goblin is insane, it does make sense. Osborn is all about power and it would make sense that he would want power and control in both the legal world as a tycoon and in the underworld, especially as he works in both in this show.
After all, Green Goblin in the comics made his debut organizing the Enforcers against Spider-Man after Spidey had taken down the Big Man.
Rounding up a trio of random thugs for his quest, Goblin crashes Lincoln's party and seeks to rob everyone as well as blow them all to kingdom come. Spider-Man battles the menace across the gala and the skyline of Manhattan before Gobby trucks out the tried and true "I left a bomb, go defuse it" ploy that villains always use to escape. With some help from John Jameson, Spider-Man is able to get it and save the day, even if Goblin escapes. It is worth noting that Green Goblin is the first enemy who was able to escape from Spider-Man, at least unless you count Tombstone (who overpowered Spider-Man). Spider-Man naturally is disgusted with finding himself defending his enemy, which bemuses Tombstone. Kevin Micheal Richardson naturally voices Tombstone well and I still am having a blast with this show's merging of Tombstone and Big Man. It has created one really great version of Tombstone, one who is a thinking man's boss instead of a thug. Perhaps someone down the line thought that Spider-Man has few African American enemies so they may as well make one of the few he does have really, really good for diversity's sake (the same reason Ned Leeds is "Ned Lee" and is Asian, or Liz Allen is Hispanic, which is no big deal; NY is a diverse place). This has been a great move. And really, would it even have come up if the writers were able to rely on Kingpin, but couldn't due to an embargo? Sometimes they do induce creativity.
As another subplot, Robbie Robertson tasks Ned Lee with trying to investigate who Spider-Man is under the mask. As an interesting twist, Jonah doesn't care because he thinks that would just "humanize" Spider-Man to readers and thus sell less papers. J.J. may dislike Spider-Man personally, but is aware he is good for sales. The old man's reaction at having to credit Spidey for the save at the gala to keep John from being investigated and stifling his space launch was priceless. Still, given that Peter was not seen at the gala yet he was able to sent photo's may a gaffe that needs explaining.
The ending is a happy one, as MJ deliberately waited until the end to have a "last dance" with Peter, having won homecoming queen alongside Flash. Hey, looks and personality. Maybe blind dates don't stink.
Next week brings on Dr. Octopus, and Otto had a cameo here, and again, it works much better due to subplots, and it will be great seeing the meek little scientist become an arrogant megalomaniac.
According to Comics Continuum, the next 3 weeks in a row will offer new episodes, and that should be a great run. Of course, next Saturday, it will be hard overshadowing IRON MAN WEEKEND.
There are only so many ways and times you can say something about appreciating the show's embracing of subplots from one episode to the next, TMNT style. Not even the 90's series did that this strongly until Season 2. New characters keep sneaking into the show to flesh out the Spidey-verse every week, and while the obvious one is Green Goblin, arguably Spider-Man's biggest arch nemesis (at least until Dr. Octopus and Venom come along), that new character is John Jameson, J.J.'s air force son who is slated to go into space, the only guy the old man seems to approve of in his life. Naturally, though, MJ herself gets more time to shine here as she attends the dance with a very smitten and "out of his league" feeling Peter. Vanessa Marshall voices the buxom red-heard and does a bang-up job depicting someone with confidence and more of a spirited attitude than the more humble Gwen (Lacey Chabert), which is how it began in the comics and it is great to finally, FINALLY, after, what, 30-40 years, to see it depicted well on any screen. The movies certainly never captured that dynamic (by the time Gwen showed up in SM3, MJ was already Peter's "destined" eternal lover and Peter only seemed to date Gwen because the black costume wanted to). Vanessa seems much more natural in the role than the 90's Sara Ballantine (although Lisa Loeb from the MTV show actually wasn't a bad MJ).
The episode takes a different pace than some others, opening up with Spider-Man battling Green Goblin at a gala that is obviously not the Midtown High dance and being seemingly overwhelmed by Gobby's insane tactics and barrage of themed weapons, from exploding (and cackling!) pumpkin bombs and razor-sharp "batarangs" that almost put Bruce Wayne's to shame. Naturally Spidey questions how a night that was supposed to be the best of his life could go so wrong, and then most of the episode is done in flashback. The 2k3 TMNT series seemed to do this 90% of the time, almost to the point of parody, but SS-M did this sparingly so it was effective, and allowed us to see Green Goblin, arguably the star attraction of the episode, right off the bat. As with all of the character designs by Cheeks Galloway, it is exaggerated and extreme, and one will either like it or not. I thought it animated well and while I do miss the Romita Sr. themed designs of the 80's cartoons and even the 90's one, this design did try to incorporate modern elements (like the kevlar armor) and made the fiend look goblin-like. The only down-point was the pumpkin belt buckle; I know it was probably meant to break up the color scheme (the same reason Batman's belt was yellow for the longest time), but it often got distracting. The battle between the pair was thrilling and different than the battles Spider-Man has had with other rogues, which keeps each one fresh, every bad guy brings a new element to overcome. Naturally the hardest thing to do against Goblin is tag him with any attack considering his dynamic glider (which had the retractable spear at the head, which was cool) and the arsenal. Steven Blum voices Goblin and does a bang-up job. Goblin hasn't sounded this good since Neil Ross and I think Blum did a better job. As Spidey noted, Goblin ranked high in the banter dept.
But before all that, Peter Parker was able to dazzle everyone at the Midtown Dance by arriving with MJ; even to the point of making head jock Flash Thompson jealous. When Flash jokes about their "bet", perhaps trying to ruin things for Peter by mentioning that he bragged about "bringing a 20 year old" (i.e. Betty Brant), and MJ doesn't miss a beat, turning the tables on Flash. Of course Gwen was able to turn around some wordplay on Flash herself, but not quite this spontaneously. Gwen, on the other hand, is hurt because now she believes Peter was lying to her about not going to the dance and her romantic interests are one-sided, and Eddie Brock is once again irked by his friend's selfishness. I thought it was a bit of a gaffe that Peter introduces MJ to Harry and the other jocks, but not to Gwen or Brock, who should also seemingly be his "best friends". Peter in fact didn't even seem to react to them at the dance together, considering Brock technically was an 18 year old college freshman (and thus an "older guy" for Gwen). MJ is interested in interacting with the "popular crowd" and when Gloria mentions M3's drama dept., MJ is interested. But the red-head makes sure not to ignore Peter, at least so long as he is there.
Many of us were naturally expecting a conflict when Peter inevitably has to ditch his dates, Prince Adam style, to become Spider-Man somewhere. Some people were already pre-angsting for Peter because "MJ would immediately think he was a flake right off the bat". Well, the writers aren't that predictable. Peter informs MJ about his job calling him and MJ isn't even miffed. She lives for the moment, and just settles with dancing with the other eager jocks while Peter is away, preferring to enjoy herself and roll with the punches than get upset. I thought this was a good twist, to have MJ actually be understanding from the get-go, since most of Peter's girlfriends tend to get predictable in that, "where were you/how DARE you leave me" nagging.
This episode, as a curious note, imitated something the 90's show did with introducing Green Goblin. By that I mean offering Harry as a red herring as to who the Goblin is. In the 90's show, he always happened to be a beat behind Goblin and was investigating his lair; here Harry hangs out in dark alleys drinking this mysterious green serum from a vial. But I seriously doubt that it is him simply because Harry in no way would know who L. T. Lincoln/Tombstone/Big Man is. The Green Goblin, as per his comic debut, seeks to control the underworld and wants to start by taking out the Big Man. Harry would never know about that; Norman would. Still, something is going on with Harry, as life seems to hand him one defeat after the next no matter what he does (not even being RICH can keep Gloria Grant away from Kong) and obviously there will be a breaking point. I liked that Goblin's identity is a subplot and wasn't wrapped up this episode (even if most of us know who it is) and I liked how this version has begun more like the Ditko version. In the 90's series, Norman becomes the Goblin to avenge sins, real, imagined, or exaggerated, committed against the Osborn family. While that is well and good, this show seems to love modernizing the Ditko era, which meant having Gobby play at being crime-lord. Some say this angle makes little sense and seems too "generic", but considering Green Goblin is insane, it does make sense. Osborn is all about power and it would make sense that he would want power and control in both the legal world as a tycoon and in the underworld, especially as he works in both in this show.
After all, Green Goblin in the comics made his debut organizing the Enforcers against Spider-Man after Spidey had taken down the Big Man.
Rounding up a trio of random thugs for his quest, Goblin crashes Lincoln's party and seeks to rob everyone as well as blow them all to kingdom come. Spider-Man battles the menace across the gala and the skyline of Manhattan before Gobby trucks out the tried and true "I left a bomb, go defuse it" ploy that villains always use to escape. With some help from John Jameson, Spider-Man is able to get it and save the day, even if Goblin escapes. It is worth noting that Green Goblin is the first enemy who was able to escape from Spider-Man, at least unless you count Tombstone (who overpowered Spider-Man). Spider-Man naturally is disgusted with finding himself defending his enemy, which bemuses Tombstone. Kevin Micheal Richardson naturally voices Tombstone well and I still am having a blast with this show's merging of Tombstone and Big Man. It has created one really great version of Tombstone, one who is a thinking man's boss instead of a thug. Perhaps someone down the line thought that Spider-Man has few African American enemies so they may as well make one of the few he does have really, really good for diversity's sake (the same reason Ned Leeds is "Ned Lee" and is Asian, or Liz Allen is Hispanic, which is no big deal; NY is a diverse place). This has been a great move. And really, would it even have come up if the writers were able to rely on Kingpin, but couldn't due to an embargo? Sometimes they do induce creativity.
As another subplot, Robbie Robertson tasks Ned Lee with trying to investigate who Spider-Man is under the mask. As an interesting twist, Jonah doesn't care because he thinks that would just "humanize" Spider-Man to readers and thus sell less papers. J.J. may dislike Spider-Man personally, but is aware he is good for sales. The old man's reaction at having to credit Spidey for the save at the gala to keep John from being investigated and stifling his space launch was priceless. Still, given that Peter was not seen at the gala yet he was able to sent photo's may a gaffe that needs explaining.
The ending is a happy one, as MJ deliberately waited until the end to have a "last dance" with Peter, having won homecoming queen alongside Flash. Hey, looks and personality. Maybe blind dates don't stink.
Next week brings on Dr. Octopus, and Otto had a cameo here, and again, it works much better due to subplots, and it will be great seeing the meek little scientist become an arrogant megalomaniac.
According to Comics Continuum, the next 3 weeks in a row will offer new episodes, and that should be a great run. Of course, next Saturday, it will be hard overshadowing IRON MAN WEEKEND.
Hurm...
Superhero
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HAHA! Agreed, It's taking quite a few risks that other shows haven't taken. They say dying and dead in the show unlike The Batman or LOS. But that line tops it
Little Foot
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But in this, it's suggested that she just moved here--after Ben's death. Doesn't rule it out, but...
Spider-ManHero12
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Very true, also, I think that MJ not knowing that peter is attracted to her will keep their relationship a mystery for sometime. It just seems so likely that they may not hook up at the moment.
Web-Head408
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That's not from the Lee/Ditko era, but from the graphic novel Parrallel Lives. He was climbing out of his bedroom window going to get Ben's killer.
vinny2
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My bad. Thanks for the correction.
Spider-ManHero12
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I'm loving the Green Goblin's laugh in this show! It's just so cool.
Little Foot
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The mask is removed, and it is revealed that the Green Goblin is...
Really, the "suspense" behind Green Goblin's "secret" identity is feeling more and more like very unsubtle melodrama.
Really, the "suspense" behind Green Goblin's "secret" identity is feeling more and more like very unsubtle melodrama.
Spectacular23
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i personally think this show was awesome
Spider-ManHero12
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Lol.The mask is removed, and it is revealed that the Green Goblin is...
Really, the "suspense" behind Green Goblin's "secret" identity is feeling more and more like very unsubtle melodrama.
ReggieWhiteJr
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Nice reviews, guys.
About Glory, well I think she may have genuinely liked Harry but she was with Kong far long than the rich Osborn kid. Just something to thing about. I wouldn't say she used Harry.
Was great seeing John Jameson in this ep. Spidey may not have found that bomb without his help. Nice stuff.
"Randy?"
"Very."
I cannot believe that line made it on that show!!
About Glory, well I think she may have genuinely liked Harry but she was with Kong far long than the rich Osborn kid. Just something to thing about. I wouldn't say she used Harry.
Was great seeing John Jameson in this ep. Spidey may not have found that bomb without his help. Nice stuff.
"Randy?"
"Very."
I cannot believe that line made it on that show!!
Dread
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Nice reviews, guys.
About Glory, well I think she may have genuinely liked Harry but she was with Kong far long than the rich Osborn kid. Just something to thing about. I wouldn't say she used Harry.
Was great seeing John Jameson in this ep. Spidey may not have found that bomb without his help. Nice stuff.
"Randy?"
"Very."
I cannot believe that line made it on that show!!
Yeah. But then again, Kid's WB has always been willing to push the envelope with suggestive dialogue. BATMAN BEGINS had a few lines like that. In one episode, Terry and Nelson were wrestling in gym and their respective girlfriends were commenting on who stood the best chance of winning, and Nelson's girl more or less alluded to being "pinned" by Nelson before.
And then there was Felicia Hardy's infamous description about Dr. Octopus that somehow made it past strict 90's censors: "He reminds me of Flash Thompson; all hands!"
spidey-dude
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foe me this show is better than any marvel movie thus far!!!
Spider-ManHero12
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Yeah, lol, they can use suggestive dialogue sometimes when it's necessary.
stillanerd
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Actually, Dread (great review as always by the way), there may be some evidence that Harry DOES in fact know about his father's business dealings with Tombstone. In the last episode, Harry walked in on Norman right when he was having a meeting with Hammerhead about his working with the Big Man and how he's profiting on making and incarcerating super-villains, in which Norman quickly ordered his son out of the room. The scene ended with Harry having a very sinister looking smile on his face after his dad closed the door behind him. Taking this scene and this week's episode, it wouldn't be hard to argue that Harry has been eavesdropping on his father conversations for who knows how long. Perhaps, if Harry is the Green Goblin, his going after Tombstone would be his way of trying to win his father's approval, the same reason he tried out for Football and started hanging out with the popular kids. Wouldn't surprise me if this was the case if the show does indeed decide to make Harry the first Green Goblin instead of Norman.
Little Foot
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Yeah, lol, they can use suggestive dialogue sometimes when it's necessary.
Define "necessary."
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