Dame Kelly Holmes, Paula Radcliffe and Sharron Davies to write to IOC over transgender athletes

Discussion in 'Sports' started by jolldan, Mar 21, 2019.

  1. jolldan Registered

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    Trans Athlete Who Competed In Men’s Hurdle Division Wins Women’s National Title
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    A transgender woman who competed as a man before her transition has become a National Collegiate Athletic Association track champion.

    CeCe Telfer successfully clinched the women’s 400 metre hurdle national title at the NCAA Division II Outdoor Track and Field Championships for Frankland Pierce University on May 25.

    However, her impressive win has faced controversy with some people in the running community arguing transgender athletes competing in women’s sports may have an unfair advantage.


    Telfer was born and raised as a boy called Craig and competed on the men’s team at Franklin Pierce University in New Hampshire, even though she personally identified as a woman. During 2016 and 2017, she wasn’t in the top 200 male athletes competing in the event.

    Her last competition as Craig took place in January 2018, and saw her finish eighth out of nine men in the 400 metres.

    Telfer resigned from the team and went on to have gender reassignment surgery before joining the women’s team in October.

    According to NCAA guidelines, male athletes are allowed to compete as women provided they suppress their testosterone levels for a full calendar year, but until then they must compete in the mixed-sex teams in the men’s division.

    Emerson says Telfer’s improved is down the increased effort she’s put in and her experience from the previous three seasons of competing.
     
  2. Iceman Daffy Duck Vs The Joker

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  3. DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    She is not a male athlete. She is a woman. Second, we are talking about Division 2 here. Not exactly the top athletes in the country.

    https://deadspin.com/cece-telfers-national-title-emphasizes-the-catch-22-of-1835199139

     
  4. DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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  5. jolldan Registered

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    She competed in the same sport as a man back in 2018. It doesn't matter that this isn't Division 1, its shouldn't be a case of unless women are competing in the absolute highest division then they're open to this.

    I wish Telfer nothing but the best but its clearly very obvious from the below text that she is taking a very big advantage in to these races (even if unintentionally) which is not fair on the other women.

    "In an analysis of Telfer’s performance in three conference-winning races earlier this season at the Northeast 10 conference championship, Turtleboy Sports reported that the three times — in the 60-meter dash, the 60-meter hurdles and the 200-meter dash — did not measure up to the male finalists, but won women’s races.

    Most of the gaps were not small for races this short — Telfer would’ve trailed the last-placed male finalists by more than a half-second in the 60-meter dash and almost 1.7 seconds in the 200, but won the woman’s 60-meter hurdles by a half-second."
     
    Dark Raven likes this.
  6. DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    And how does it measure up to the best women in the classifcations? That is the thing. The idea is a transgender woman would dominate the sport. All the records would be owned by transgender women. Telfer hasn't even won all her races. Didn't even make the finals in the the 200m. So if a transgender athlete is so much better, how is that happening, especially at Division II level?
     
  7. jolldan Registered

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    I don't understand how its such an extreme threshold. It shouldn't be a case of she has to be dominating at everything for this to be seen as unfair. Even if she isn't consistently taking first place she's went from a below average competitor as a male to a top tier runner as a woman and is taking a place away from biological women.

    CeCe Telfer won the 400-meter hurdles on Saturday night and went on to post victory by more than a second, in a personal collegiate-best time of 57.53 seconds, according to the university website. Her finish was two seconds shy of the NCAA Division II record.

    Also I don't know how they can really say its fair when these are her records, that's a lot of 1st place finishes.

    TFRRS | CeCe Telfer - Track and Field Results & Statistics
     
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  8. DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    The concept of unfair is that others cannot compete. That clearly isn't the case. Furthermore she has done everything asked of her. She is competing within the rules, doing nothing wrong.

    Two seconds shy of the NCAA Division II record does not help your argument. It shows the opposite. That being a transgender athlete does not give you some sort of free ride to victory.

    In terms of her track record. The larger the meet, the worse she does. That is exactly how it is suppose to work.
     
  9. jolldan Registered

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    There is also the unfair advantages that she brings in to the race that can't be contested like bigger bones and having gone through puberty as a man.

    Got to disagree in terms of going from someone who wasn't finishing in the top pool of runners to someone who is now just 2 secs off the division record does show she's simply better as a woman.

    She still just won a NCAA II event something she never could have done as a man. I don't agree with the rules, I understand these debates often get very charged but I honestly wish CeCe all the best in whatever other endeavors she goes for I just can't wish her success in terms of athletics as personally I do not believe she should be competing against biological women.
     
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  10. Elektra1 I like cats

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    No one cares about transgender athletes unless they win something. Then it's a bunch of bull**** about hormones and biology and it all being unfair.

    Let them compete. They deserve a place in athletics as well.
     
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  11. DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    Are you suggesting there are no non-transgender women that size? I have watched the WNBA. That just isn't true.

    How many of these stories are reported on by right wing media when a transgender athlete doesn't win? Also that is the worst part of this. Achieving something as a transgender athlete is almost worse.
     
  12. The Endless WE are Groot

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    Then they should have their own division.

    Someone who has gone through male development shouldn't be competing with women. End of story.

    What's next? Former men taking part in women's Rugby or American Football? Watch the injuries to the women sky rocket. It's basically biological PEDs.

    I know it's a sensitive subject. And I do support transexuals and their rights. But competing in professional sports isn't a right. It's a privilege. And if you cant compete? Well that's tough ****. Not everyone gets what they want.
     
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  13. DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    And would you like to explain to us how you ended the story? As progression in society continues, you know what way this headed. Also competing in sports is not a privilege. It's a job for professionals, and for students you cannot deny equal opportunity. Look at Title 9. So yes, competing in sports is a right.

    Here is an example. A coach goes up to a young man or woman playing a sport at their school and tell them they aren't allowed to participate because they don't like their skin color. Then they tell them they have the right to deny them, because playing a sport is a privilege. See how it works out.
     
    #38 DarthSkywalker, Jun 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
  14. The Endless WE are Groot

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    Playing sport is a right sure.

    Competiting in pro sports at the highest level isn't a right. Why am I not earning 500k a week sitting on Uniteds bench!?! Its unfair!

    And stopping a woman who grew up as a man... Went through puberty as a man...Who has all the physical advantages of a man... from professionally competing with women... who grew up as women... who went through puberty as women... who have the physical disadvantages of women (compared to men)... isn't the same as stopping someone from competing due to their skin colour.

    Like I say, it's the equivalent of biological PEDs. Should we allow women to start juicing and getting testosterone treatments to even the playing fields?

    Where does it end? What if a 220 pound NFL rookie who doesn't make it decides to get a sex change and compete with women? You telling me that wouldn't be a problem? If people are gonna talk about slippery slopes, then so will I.
     
  15. DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    Then explain Colin Kaepernick's lawsuit against the NFL.

    A league or a sporting body not allowing an athlete into a sport for certain reasons have been shown to violent the law. Someone being bad at a sport is different then denying a qualified athlete the opportunity afforded to everyone else.

    What you are arguing is that because someone is a transgender woman athlete, they should be denied the rights of other women athletes. You base this on the idea that sports is a privilege and thus no one is entitled to do. Following that logic, you can exclude anyone for any reason. That is why it reads like a human rights violation, similar to denying someone the ability to play a sport because of the color of their skin.

    All the best athletes have advantages. One of the big issues here is there is no mountain of evidence in either direction, though we have seen male to female athletes whose performance, after reducing their testosterone, having the usual drop off in performance between male and female athletes in track.

    Where is this professional NFL level women's league? Where are all the male to female athletes in the WNBA? Is the suggestion here then men are going to transition into being women for the chance to make the crappy salaries women make in their pro sports leagues? The WNBA is by far the most successful, and many of the players, including MVPs, are all having to play overseas during the offseason to make a living. The best woman's footballer in the world won't be at the World Cup because of how her FA treated her because she is a woman.
     
  16. jolldan Registered

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    No, no I think there was a miscommunication here. Yeah of course you get some bigger ladies but a 6ft 2 man (which I know CeCe is not now but developed as one) still has clear cut advantages over a 6ft 2 female. In terms of just being physically stronger, more muscle mass especially in the upper body and are faster.

    Yeah there are unfortunately always going to people who want to be cruel and insulting. Im sorry I don't really understand the last part of your post.

    The real worry for women is not Odell Beckham and LeBron coming in, the best male athletes like you said will always be attracted to the highest paycheck. But there is an enormous pool of players who are great just not good enough to make the NBA, MLB, NFL or NHL in the US. Or in terms of UK football. I know Tennis & Athletics are becoming an issue worldwide as well. What happens when people who are from that group start to transition?

    Look at Laurel Hubbard, born Gavin Hubbard. She transitioned at 35 and if ever there was a record to show how clear cut these advantages are I think this might be it.

    At that meet, Hubbard snatched 123kg/271lb and clean & jerked 145kg/319lb on her way to gold across the board and new New Zealand weightlifting records.

    At the World Masters Games this past weekend, Hubbard again competed in the women's 90+kg in the 35-39 age range. She snatched 131kg/288lb and clean & jerked 149kg/328lb to set new masters world records in the snatch, clean & jerk, and total.

    Hubbard qualified for the 2018 Commonwealth Games but an elbow injury during the competition forced her withdrawal from the event while leading the field
     
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  17. Elektra1 I like cats

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    Darth already posted a link to this thread but I don't know how many of you actually bothered to read it.
     
    #42 Elektra1, Jun 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
  18. Elektra1 I like cats

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    Also, anyone who thinks that men will just transition into women to win sports competitions is ridiculous. Maybe do some light reading on what transitioning entails before making stupid comments on a slippery slope that no guy would go down. Yeesh.
     
  19. jolldan Registered

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    1. With respect this woman is very clearly biased and emotional on this subject, she even starts by framing her argument that if you disagree with her you are transphobic. Which just isn't true you can disagree on whether or not you think its fair for transwomen to compete against biological women without having any hate or fear of anyone.

    2. Its also very politically charged the second response she talks about right-wing websites.

    3. Im not sure if I have understood her third tweet correctly but I think its basically saying its NCAA II what's the big deal?

    4. Her third and fourth are about how she actually lost the race which doesn't matter. A woman lost her place in competing in that race because of her.
     
  20. Elektra1 I like cats

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    Your reply doesn't address her arguments. You're just saying she's emotionally charged and biased. The woman who lost her qualifying spot to CeCe also lost to the two other women who placed first and second. Maybe she should train harder. It's one thing to get 4th and lose to 3 transgendered athletes, it's another to lose to one and 2 "biological" women. If they can place first and second, then woman #4 really has no excuse.


    It also makes me laugh that I'm the only women who has commented in this thread. Do any of you actually give a **** about women's sports competitions? Do you watch women's mma? Weightlifting? Basketball? Suddenly you all seem to care so much about making sure women have fair competition. Seems disingenuous at best and transphobic at worst.
     
    #45 Elektra1, Jun 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
  21. jolldan Registered

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    I thought I replied to them rather well except maybe 3 as I didn't really understand how she'd worded that.

    She starts her argument in a very disingenuous way.

    Her second point about right wing websites is like I said the political side of this. (It's definitely not nice but however the "right-wing" & "left wing" want to report on this isn't the actual issue, its whether it should be allowed or not)

    Why does that make you laugh? I have worked as a forwards coach for a women's rugby team and trained a few different ladies for kickboxing competitions. I also watch women's MMA very seldom do I watch just Invicta (which incase you are unsure is a women's only league) on its own but if you check the UFC section you will see after every big PPV card I post a summary/review of the card for the main events men or women. I've even had the pleasure of meeting Leslie Smith in person once who is one hell of a scraper win or lose. You seem to not mind making some strong assumptions about people.

    Which if I could give some advice doesn't really help in these discussions. I will hazard a guess that we will likely not end up being able to agree on this subject but I don't think that is because you are "x or y" you just hold a different opinion than I do.
     
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  22. Elektra1 I like cats

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    We won't agree. I wouldn't care about competing against a transgendered woman. They take medications to lower their hormone levels and it causes them to lose muscle mass. As far as I'm concerned, it's a level playing field. I don't get bent out of shape when women are taller than me and beat me at basketball. This is the same in my eyes.

    Right wing websites absolutely need to be called out for the crap they report on because it is usually biased, not researched, and only for clicks.
    You didn't address how the fear mongering in the 70s never amounted to anything, that trans women lose muscle mass when they take their medications, that some of the athletes have lower testosterone levels than their "biological" female competitors, that trans women have been competing in sports for decades and now suddenly it's a huge issue, even though most of the athletes are pretty average, how the woman who lost a qualifying spot against CeCe also lost to TWO other female athletes, etc.

    It bothers me because what do you people want? For trans women not to compete in the sports that none of you really care about in the first place? You're essentially saying that trans women are less than their "biological" female counterparts and should stay out of sports, effectively cutting them out of part of society solely based on who they are. That's ****ing wrong.
     
    #47 Elektra1, Jun 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
  23. jolldan Registered

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    Then unless you are a exceptional top 10% female athlete you are going to be at a serious disadvantage. There's a reason the only person who managed to beat Fallon Fox (who was a very average male fighter before transition) was a very high level Ashlee-Evans Smith who now fights for the UFC and is on the cusp of the top 15.

    Any website that is doing that I agree is bang out of order but I would say you also have left wing websites guilty of the opposite side of the coin that are claiming there is basically no difference between us, that everyone should just be able to do as they want and just call anyone that questions that either transphobic or some other undesirable title. Lazy biased journalism (if you'd even call it that) exists on both sides and I don't support any of it.

    What you're talking about the 70's was that in that Parker Molly's list of tweets? I read enough of her stuff I wasn't going through it all, especially after I said most of the stuff I read on there was quite emotionally charged. Yes this isn't the Olympics but why does that matter just because it isn't the peak of the sport doesn't mean that unfair advantages should be allowed.

    Again I wonder why you need to try and group people in these kids of debates, what do you even mean you people? I have just given you multiple examples of females sports than I am now or have been involved in so stop trying to make out that this is about trying to hate on trans people. I am not saying that in the slightest don't try to put words in my mouth. I also do not believe people who male or female who have failed steroid tests should be allowed to compete in combat sports again this is nothing to do with thinking anyone is less of a person.
     
  24. DeadPresident Registered

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    You’re confusing sex and gender. She will always be male.

    Male and female refer to biological sex, man and woman refer to socially performative gender roles. So yes, a male woman or a female man will exist - but athletics is based on sex not on gender. How a person identifies can’t change biology.

    The one you can change and the one you can’t, so yes CeCe is now a woman but will forever carry the physiological hallmarks of being male, and people simply need to admit this is the truth.

    As an aside, this is a completely different situation to Caster Semenya’s and considering what the correct approach is with athletes who choose to transition while be different from accommodating athletes born with particular physiological anomalies.

    Another random aside, something I find ironic and slightly comical is how when women complain about male athletes in their sport they’re shouted down for some reason, which is bemusing, since surely their opinions are valid.
     
    #49 DeadPresident, Jun 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  25. Dr. Unknown Toronto member

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    Writer Andrew Sullivan has an interesting little essay on this issue. His subject is the South African runner Caster Semenya - who is alleged to have “intersex” traits. But he segues into the broader issue of segregated (male, female, transexual) sports competition.

    "The other argument is that all humans have natural inequalities and we don’t penalize a swimmer, say, who has an unusually wide wingspan, or whose body produces much less lactic acid than most, or a basketball player because he’s more than seven feet tall. Why penalize one natural advantage over others? The answer to that is that the natural advantage of males’ levels of testosterone over females’ outweighs anything else that might be pertinent within each sex’s range. Among the members of each sex, you can have natural advantages that can confer an edge, but most are quite subtle (the case for much lower lactic acid helping Michael Phelps, for example, is highly debatable) and they are nowhere near as powerful a determinant as testosterone. Yes, of course, plenty of women can outrun plenty of men. But the average difference in performance in most sports between men and women after puberty is 10 to 12 percent. At an elite level, that all but wipes out female victories in coed sports. It would end women’s athletics."

    Further...

    "The deeper question for me is why anyone would try to insist that biology is largely irrelevant in, of all arenas, sports. I can see trying to minimize biological sex differences in many, many areas where the distinction is trivial — but something as obviously physically rooted as athletics? It’s almost perverse. An ACLU blog post defending the participation of trans girls in school sports states that there is “ample evidence that girls can compete and win against boys,” but somehow avoids the conclusion that there should therefore be all-sexes leagues or contests, where men, women, and intersex people can all compete together."

    Andrew Sullivan: Who Should Be Allowed to Compete in Women’s Sports?
     

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