Dame Kelly Holmes, Paula Radcliffe and Sharron Davies to write to IOC over transgender athletes

Discussion in 'Sports' started by jolldan, Mar 21, 2019.

  1. Elektra1 Dark Side

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    Transgender women take medication that lowers their testosterone levels and consequently makes them lose muscle mass. So if testosterone is the be all and end all of factors determining athletic ability, then this solves the problem no?
     
  2. Iceman Daffy Duck Vs The Joker

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    Is there any rough estimate for how big the worldwide transgender population is? (I have no clue at all)
     
  3. DeadPresident Registered

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    We would need a study that ascertains the average muscle mass and testosterone levels of female athletes compared to the average muscle mass and testosterone levels of transgender woman males to make an educated assessment.

    Then we would need endocrinologists to describe the specifics of a biological male’s development process and which aspects of that development could benefit them athletically while not being altered by artificial testosterone suppressors; bone density, fast-twitch vs slow-twitch muscle fiber development, etc.

    After a cartload of research we would probably determine that even an average athletic male undergoing testosterone suppression holds noticeable physical benefits over biological females, as is being shown by the performance of male women competing in female events.

    Also, just for curiosity’s sake, muscle mass isn’t an accurate indicator of muscle strength or performance necessarily, there are multiple other factors that contribute to performance that may or may not be affected simply by decreasing testosterone.
     
  4. Elektra1 Dark Side

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    Honestly, I don't give a ****. There are so few transgender women competing at high levels anyways, it's a moot point in my eyes. There is so much diversity in biology within the sexes that harping on transgender women for being who they are is disingenuous. They deserve to compete as well. And they mostly lose. I refuse to get riled up about this unless every sport is dominated by transgender women (which would never happen). They thought it would back in the 70s and it never came to fruition. It's just fear mongering and i have no problem ignoring the 3 women who wrote a letter complaining about it because obviously the vast majority don't care.
     
  5. DeadPresident Registered

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    Of course you don’t give a ****, you’re not competing, so at the end of the day your opinion doesn’t matter and neither does mine. The three women who wrote the letter, now their opinions do matter.

    You’re choosing this as some token issue to give your two cents on because you want to push a moral position you value, but that position just doesn’t make a heck of a lot of sense, it only makes you feel good even though it’s anti-science and irrational in the extreme - but keep on going.
     
  6. Elektra1 Dark Side

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    It's not anti-science or irrational, but good try. Testosterone plays its part and yet men with higher levels are considered gifted, whereas women with higher levels are considered cheats, even if their body produces it naturally (I'm not talking about transgender athletes here). You also have environment to thank for certain advantages (such as training at a higher elevation and being more fit). The point is that there is so much that goes into whether an athlete will be naturally good at something, along with the training and dedication that would be required in order to realize those natural gifts, that banning transgender women from competing would be seriously short-sighted.

    The science is muddled at best regarding the dominance of black athletes in running and the NBA/NFL, but maybe they should have their own category as well, to be fair to the white/Asian/Middle Eastern, etc athletes that lose to them. After all, it could be a genetic thing and that's just unfair, right?
     
    #56 Elektra1, Jun 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  7. jolldan Registered

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  8. jmc away for a while

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    This has been coming for a while. The reality is not just an issue of competitiveness, but just outright safety for women playing sports like rugby where size and strength plays a huge factor in the game. As far as I can tell World Rugby has been the first international sporty body in the world to conduct extensive testing on the matter, which should hopefully now filter its way down to other major sports.
     
  9. Dark Raven The Gal from Themyscira

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    I expect they'll also be banned from women's boxing or kick boxing.
     
  10. Batmannerism Super-unknown

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    Does anyone have the science on strength ( and other) advantages of a trans woman of having a fully male body, with fully developed male musculature and skeletal structure that has then transitioned to becoming female.

    Honestly, I don't know what the science says, but it seems to me that even if the amount of testosterone in a transwoman was the same as that of a born woman, that the skeletal and muscle development advantages provide a residual benefit.

    On average women have 50 to 60% of the upper body strength of men. Can that advantage be completely neutralized? Without some sound science I'm not convinced.

    I still feel it is unfair to expect female athletes, particularly in contact sports to be expected to contend with trans opponents, for safety reasons - but if someone has science to prove that there is no advantage then I'm happy to reconsider.

    Why not create a competition for trans athletes ?
    Yes, it might be a very small competition, but there's a question of safety. You would not put a 120 pound female boxer in the ring with a 120 pound male boxer of similar skill.
     
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  11. Dark Raven The Gal from Themyscira

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    Imagine a trans woman going for a knockout punch with a woman. :eek: It could be a situation like with Drago and Apollo Creed in Rocky 4 when he kills him.

    But even in a sport where safety isn't involved, there's sure to be an advantage for something like athletics (eg sprinting) or tennis where a man hits much harder. If women find it difficult to play tennis against other women who are more muscular, imagine how it would be against a trans woman with the strength of a man. It would always be an unfair advantage.
     
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  12. jmc away for a while

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    Once puberty hits is where things become difficult to alter. There simply wouldn't be the number of athletes around to make it viable teams because the population size is so small. There's only one option to solve this - mens sports becomes an open division, whilst women's sport is for women only. I know there are some trans folks who will object to it, but they also have to look at not just themselves in this instance but their competitors rights too. Sport should be open to everyone, but sport also has to have as level a playing field as much as possible, which is why we ban cheaters whether they win a gold medal or not. People are free to live their lives how they want, but sport cannot accomodate some of these people to the degree they desire. Biology simply doesn't care about whether you see yourself as male or female. Sport, by it's very nature, has to discriminate in most instances for the sake of fair competition.
     
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  13. Elektra1 Dark Side

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    If girls were given the same opportunities and access to sports programs as boys, this wouldn't be such an issue. But we as a society discriminate so early on (segregated gym classes are a joke and I will always hate that they separate the boys and girls) that anyone who grows up playing with boys and competing against them will have an advantage, both physically and mentally.
     

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