Daredevil's 3 Seasons Equal Or Surpass TDK Trilogy And Feige Had Nothing To Do With It... Discuss.

[KRYPTON INC.]

Given the nonsense vs. threads regularly posted around here I wanted to see what people thought about this. Take it seriously, or have fun with it. I do think however that it's gonna be revealing as to the responses to this. As and FYI this is a gun to your head thing, so the poll is not one where you can change your vote.



While I do think the TDK Trilogy deserves it's love, even if I think it doesn't stick the landing with the third film, it was and is a landmark of super hero stories on film and it's well done and well acted all around for the most part. It as stated deserves it's rep.

However... Daredevil has for three seasons more than equaled it in my view and with it's stunning recent season I would say it's usurped the position as "best" and is currently the crown jewel, far surpassing anything else out there.

So... Thoughts?


And two things before I go... Yes, It's a bit unfair to compare the two given some big differences in format. But... I think they even out. While DD has many more hours to develop their characters and story in comparison to TDK, the Nolan films have the edge in budget and production values. So they have advantages that kinda negate each other and in a way that speaks well of both.

And secondly... Yes I do in some way just want to watch the world burn. Go crazy fanboys! Kill! Kill!

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Ooh... And I forgot...

Yeah, It is interesting that this comes not from the Feige side of Marvel but the Loeb/Perlmutter side, and yet it's also in my view and I dare say others', better than even the best Marvel Studios proper films.

 

[TheVileOne]

I just don't think it's a necessary debate...

 

[Awest66]

I'm gonna vote TDK trilogy. Daredevil was handicapped by it's second season

 

[Kuwolski]

It's silly to compare 36 hrs of content to a two hour film or even 6 hours of a trilogy. I'm glad you like it better then the MCU, it's an amazing achievement for me, but I'm not sure it's really a fair comparison. Even the viewing process is different. I can throw on my favorite MCU film and just rewatch it like crazy and get the full experience. I've watched DD s3 through twice already and I love it, but I feel that's it for awhile. When I return it'll likely be episodes or scenes from particular episodes that I watch again (not the full on experience). The propulsion my favorite MCU films or Batman Begins gives me that kick that DD never will, because it's not an apples to apples comparison. Others may disagree.

On the topic of Feige, I do hope he allows material like DD to appear in the MCU one day. The more varied and diverse he can make the MCU the better. I think we need a Marvel Max film studio at some point.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

TDK trilogy is better. Daredevil is by far the best thing Marvel Studios has done. I love them both. I love that Krypton used a gif of Louise for his thread starting post.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I just don't think it's a necessary debate...

(Looks at Vile's join date)

You... You are familiar with this place, right?

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I'm gonna vote TDK trilogy. Daredevil was handicapped by it's second season

Interesting... I would say TDK was handicapped by it's third installment in a far greater capacity. At best I can look at DD season 2 and MAYBE understand the Elektra material not being someone's cup of tea, but the DD and Frank stuff is more than worth the ticket price in my view.

 

[flickchick85]

Nah. DD S3 is great and easily the best season of superhero TV I've seen, but superhero TV's still got a ways to go before it reaches its full potential, imo. The TDK trilogy was a damn genre-shattering event. Nothing in this genre has come close to affecting me like that did, and I don't expect anything will (especially on TV) for quite some time. Which is not to say TV can't - it has, with Breaking Bad, for example - but superhero TV's not there yet, imo. Even the greatness of DD.

 

[TheVileOne]

(Looks at Vile's join date)

You... You are familiar with this place, right?

I mean I just think they are two different beasts. I love both personally. Despite my issues with Dark Knight Rises. I have such great respect though for Nolan and Pfister for shooting those movies with IMAX cameras. Game changing moment for cinema for me. Watching Dark Knight on true IMAX was a life-changing experience for me.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

(Looks at Vile's join date)

You... You are familiar with this place, right?

 

[Kuwolski]

Also comparing two things you could catagorize as dark and gritty as being the "best" doesn't work for everyone. Clearly.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I mean I just think they are two different beasts. I love both personally. Despite my issues with Dark Knight Rises. I have such great respect though for Nolan and Pfister for shooting those movies with IMAX cameras. Game changing moment for cinema for me. Watching Dark Knight on true IMAX was a life-changing experience for me.

That's fair and understandable. As noted I think one HUGE advantage is that TDKT has and advantage in the departments of budget and production values and, if we're honest, the vision of Nolan as a master director. BUT... I think that given it's budget it's amazing how DD punches far, far, FAR, above it's weight class.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Nah. DD S3 is great and easily the best season of superhero TV I've seen, but superhero TV's still got a ways to go before it reaches its full potential, imo. The TDK trilogy was a damn genre-shattering event. Nothing in this genre has come close to affecting me like that did, and I don't expect anything will (especially on TV) for quite some time. Which is not to say TV can't - it has, with Breaking Bad, for example - but superhero TV's not there yet, imo. Even the greatness of DD.

Fair enough. As I mentioned to Vile, there's no doubt that with Nolan at the helm and with it's budget that TDKT has a great advantage compared to DD.

That said, let me just ask in what way did TDKT have and affect on you? I assume you meant emotionally. For me... I definitely have to give that edge to DD and it's seasons. Even given the great performers in TDKT, I just find Nolan quite cold when it comes to emotions, where as DD felt like the reactions of people that were pretty real even in a super hero story. A lot of Nolan's TDKT feels like a philosophy major pontificating about emotions. That's me.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Also comparing two things you could catagorize as dark and gritty as being the "best" doesn't work for everyone. Clearly.

 

[flickchick85]

Fair enough. As I mentioned to Vile, there's no doubt that with Nolan at the helm and with it's budget that TDKT has a great advantage compared to DD.

That said, let me just ask in what way did TDKT have and affect on you? I assume you meant emotionally. For me... I definitely have to give that edge to DD and it's seasons. Even given the great performers in TDKT, I just find Nolan quite cold when it comes to emotions, where as DD felt like the reactions of people that were pretty real even in a super hero story. A lot of Nolan's TDKT feels like a philosophy major pontificating about emotions. That's me.

Well I didn't cry if that's what you mean, lol. I just meant in a thriller sense. I had to remind myself to breathe while watching TDK. It got me stressed out and engrossed like no superhero story has. And the whole thing felt so...epic (yes, even TDKR), that I was utterly transported into this other world. When it ended, I got that bittersweet feeling of having finished a really great book, and sadness at having to return to the real world. DD has great actors playing great characters, and certainly some cool action (especially for TV), but nothing that replicates that feeling for me.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Also comparing two things you could catagorize as dark and gritty as being the "best" doesn't work for everyone. Clearly.

Did I bring up "dark and gritty" anywhere? Just saying... For the record nowhere did I even make a reference to those words.

But if we are bringing it up... It's honestly immaterial to the idea of this thread. Here's the thing... What makes DD so good in comparison to the other offerings of super hero TV isn't the frank language or the sex, or the violence (though it's execution of action scenes is second to none) or its "grit". It's just a quality production that does what it does well. Iron Fist was bad because it was bad. The CW show, and I'm sorry to it's fans out there, waste their potential and that's not due to the fact that characters like Flash or Supergirl are "light" or "Lighthearted". They simply don't write or produce those shows in ways that stop myself or others from rolling our eyes every two minutes. That's a ground up issue from casting, to scripts to production values. There's quite a few Marvel Netflix shows filled with grit that were bad seasons. It's not about that.

I've enjoyed a lot of Marvel Films too, but in terms of quality, keeping tone etc. out of it... I think even the better outings don't match these three seasons which relied on a lot less spectacle to keep the audience's attention and engagment.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Well I didn't cry if that's what you mean, lol. I just meant in a thriller sense. I had to remind myself to breathe while watching TDK. It got me stressed out and engrossed like no superhero story has. And the whole thing felt so...epic (yes, even TDKR), that I was utterly transported into this other world. When it ended, I got that bittersweet feeling of having finished a really great book, and sadness at having to return to the real world. DD has great actors playing great characters, and certainly some cool action (especially for TV), but nothing that replicates that feeling for me.

I totally agree with your take on TDKT FC. It reminds me of watching the OT as a kid. When everything ended with RotJ. TDKR is not perfect by any means (I still rather love it though), but when I get to the end of it I always feel a bit sad. I still remember sitting there after seeing the trilogy in theaters on the night TDKR was release. It is such a thrill ride, that just leaves you exhausted.

And yeah, the scale of the storytelling, the look, the scope of TDKT is just so big. It truly is an epic. I actually find it interesting, for as much as I enjoy Infinity Wars, for all it is made up of, it does not feel as large as TDKT to me.

 

[Reek]

TDKT.

Joker > Fisk

but Fisk > bane and ra's and scarecrow and blah blah blah...

I talked to Roose and dude just the other night about this... imagine if TDK had some of those long oneshots daredevil has... like Bane owning ass in the pit for 7-8 minutes....

 

[Awest66]

Interesting... I would say TDK was handicapped by it's third installment in a far greater capacity. At best I can look at DD season 2 and MAYBE understand the Elektra material not being someone's cup of tea, but the DD and Frank stuff is more than worth the ticket price in my view.

I could not disagree more. TDKR may not have been perfect (what third installment in a series ever is?) but it's still an exemplary piece of film-making.

Daredevil season 2 was just all over the place in terms of plotting (The Punisher and Hand arcs don't feed into each other in any meaningful way), characterization (Daredevil becomes a-okay with Frank killing people near the end of the season) and story choices (Turning the murder of Frank's family into a convoluted conspiracy, Elektra being a Chosen One, The Hand never really coming across with a clear sense of purpose)

 

[Kuwolski]

Did I bring up "dark and gritty" anywhere? Just saying... For the record nowhere did I even make a reference to those words.

But if we are bringing it up... It's honestly immaterial to the idea of this thread. Here's the thing... What makes DD so good in comparison to the other offerings of super hero TV isn't the frank language or the sex, or the violence (though it's execution of action scenes is second to none) or its "grit". It's just a quality production that does what it does well. Iron Fist was bad because it was bad. The CW show, and I'm sorry to it's fans out there, waste their potential and that's not due to the fact that characters like Flash or Supergirl are "light" or "Lighthearted". They simply don't write or produce those shows in ways that stop myself or others from rolling our eyes every two minutes. That's a ground up issue from casting, to scripts to production values. There's quite a few Marvel Netflix shows filled with grit that were bad seasons. It's not about that.

I've enjoyed a lot of Marvel Films too, but in terms of quality, keeping tone etc. out of it... I think even the better outings don't match these three seasons which relied on a lot less spectacle to keep the audience's attention and engagment.

I was just making an observation, not looking for an argument. I certainly don't want to get involved in another recycled film debate.

I love DD S3 myself and think it's a s good as anything done in the genre, but I just find the difference between the two mediums makes it hard to compare in an objective way that is satisfying to me. TV has the major advantage of time and development, cinema has the advantage of propulsion and spectacle. Both done well almost cancels the other out for me.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I could not disagree more. TDKR may not have been perfect (what third installment in a series ever is?) but it's still an exemplary piece of film-making.

Daredevil season 2 was just all over the place in terms of plotting (The Punisher and Hand arcs don't feed into each other in any meaningful way), characterization (Daredevil becomes a-okay with Frank killing people near the end of the season) and story choices (Turning the murder of Frank's family into a convoluted conspiracy, Elektra being a Chosen One, The Hand never really coming across with a clear sense of purpose)

I think TDKR has had enough people online list what they think are it's shortcomings, which interestingly are similar to your thoughts on DD Season 2. Like... Eerily similar.

 

[Batmannerism]

Tough to compare TV with Movies - different storytelling methods, with different limitations and different advantages. I'm going with TDK. It's influence has been enormous on the entire cbm film genre and in some ways transcended the genre. I think DD may owe a bit of its success to ground broken by TDK. Great show though, loved Scott Glenn as Stick.

 

[Awest66]

I think TDKR has had enough people online list what they think are it's shortcomings, which interestingly are similar to your thoughts on DD Season 2. Like... Eerily similar.

If you don't think Season 2 of Daredevil handicaps that show, How does TDKR handicap the trilogy?

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

If you don't think Season 2 of Daredevil handicaps that show, How does TDKR handicap the trilogy?

I don't suspect I'm alone in thinking that TDKR is a bit of a mess while still having some good or even great moments. But it's interesting that some of your criticisms of DDS2 could easily be turned around onto Rises.

Arcs not feeding into one another meaningfully? Well the Gordon letter stuff doesn't really come to much of anything now does it? Bane revels it and it changes... Nothing.

Characterization about a code against killing being hazy and inconsistent? Well I'm not the first to find that TDKT keeps lampshading this idea then finding loopholes but as for Rises in particular... The end of this video is a funny way of pointing out the sloppy way this was handled in that film.




As for story choices... Eh... The supposed commentary of Bane's "revolution" is muddled at best and we never get any idea about the people of Gotham's reaction to it. The idea that Bane allowed the police to be cared for instead of just gassing them all to death is only out shined in incredulousness than the idea that said same police officers would after being trapped for months and fed the bare minimum underground would be somehow an effective fighting force. Let's not even begin to get into why Bruce Wayne would be okay with the inherent danger of a nuclear fusion lab being within Gotham City limits... Just saying there's reasons to criticise Rises. Ample examples of "all over the place" story choices. Way more so than in DD Season 2 which I honestly don't find any great level of fault with and think executes it's stories and character arcs to a more consistent and satisfying end.