Daredevil's 3 Seasons Equal Or Surpass TDK Trilogy And Feige Had Nothing To Do With It... Discuss.

[DarthSkywalker]

TDKR was way more of a disappointment than AOU.

TDKR is a much better film then AoU, or any Avengers flick so far imo.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

If Age of Ultron weren’t somewhat of a disappointment, they’d have the two best trilogies in the genre.

Neither the Avengers or Cap are trilogies. Not proper ones like TDKT, which actually tells an overarching narrative. The trio of Cap movies so far, beyond not being self-contained, don't even really focus on the narrative of Cap as much as it is telling the narrative of the Avengers. TWS is Avengers 1.5 more then a sequel to Cap's first film. Same with Civil War.

It's hard to call these trilogies when so much of the plot and character stuff happens elsewhere.

 

[Reek]

avengers shouldnt even be in this discussion... any of them... not even on the same planet as DD and TDKT

 

[Spider-Fan]

I like TDK most of anything TDK series of the DD show has procuded, but I like DD seasons 1 & 3 more than BB. So tie breaker comes to TDKR, and I enjoy DD season 2 way more than TDKR. So Daredevil wins for me.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

 

[Spider-Aziz]

TDKR is a much better film then AoU, or any Avengers flick so far imo.

Better than AoU is a given, but not really much better. TDKR is a good movie that did not live up to the quality of its predecessors, and people who dislike it underrate it unfairly.

Avengers and Infinity War are really good movies and are significantly better than the Dark Knight's Roses, they don't have something as awkward as the time Batman took to make his burning bat symbol on a building while there was little time to diffuse the bomb, that bit is worse than Daredevil marking his initials with oil or flammable gel where he let a rapist get hit by a train, and it was only seen by Ben Urich coming to the scene hours after the cops were in the crime scene where none of them touched or messed up with or even saw the oil marking until Ben tossed a lit match to show that Daredevil is real.

 

[Flint Marko]

Neither the Avengers or Cap are trilogies. Not proper ones like TDKT, which actually tells an overarching narrative. The trio of Cap movies so far, beyond not being self-contained, don't even really focus on the narrative of Cap as much as it is telling the narrative of the Avengers. TWS is Avengers 1.5 more then a sequel to Cap's first film. Same with Civil War.

It's hard to call these trilogies when so much of the plot and character stuff happens elsewhere.

There's a difference between what you personally prefer in a trilogy vs. what a trilogy actually is. A trilogy is a series of 3 related stories. Cap and Avengers are 3 related stories. I get the distinction between the MCU and Nolan, but the definition of the word is pretty cut and dry and Cap and Avengers certainly qualify.

 

[Iceman]

TDKR is a much better film then AoU, or any Avengers flick so far imo.

I guess you meant a full stop instead of a comma after AoU, they are easily confused.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Honestly, I'd rather watch any MCU film than TDKR. Not going to say IM2 or TDW are better films, but I enjoy watching them more. TDKR just fills me with nothing but disappointment.

 

[Flint Marko]

Honestly, I'd rather watch any MCU film than TDKR.

Given our prior conversations I feel like I enjoy TDKR more than you do, but I'm about there as well. It's basically everything I don't like about Nolan condensed into one movie. He's a great film-maker and I'm not going to fault anyone for disagreeing, but it just ain't my cup of tea.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Given our prior conversations I feel like I enjoy TDKR more than you do, but I'm about there as well. It's basically everything I don't like about Nolan condensed into one movie. He's a great film-maker and I'm not going to fault anyone for disagreeing, but it just ain't my cup of tea.

I love almost all of Nolan's films. He's a great director, and Inception is one of my favorite films. TDK is also amazing. I just am very underwhelmed by TDKR and found the movie to be just so much lazier than I know Nolan was capable of. Which is a shame because that was one of the movies I was most looking forward to around that time, and it just didn't deliver for me. There is just so much I found stupid. You're probably right you enjoyed it more than me, but that is a low bar, LOL! People can say I am hard on the movie, and it is true I am, but it is because I found so much wrong with it.

 

[Greens]

I love almost all of Nolan's films. He's a great director, and Inception is one of my favorite films. TDK is also amazing. I just am very underwhelmed by TDKR and found the movie to be just so much lazier than I know Nolan was capable of. Which is a shame because that was one of the movies I was most looking forward to around that time, and it just didn't deliver for me. There is just so much I found stupid. You're probably right you enjoyed it more than me, but that is a low bar, LOL! People can say I am hard on the movie, and it is true I am, but it is because I found so much wrong with it.

TDKR is a weird film in Nolan's filmography because some of the story decisions are so cartoony, for lack of a better term. I mean come on, a big bomb with a timer on it? Is this Batman Forever?

 

[henzINNIT]

I don't think Nolan really wanted to do Rises. He put the work in, but the heart isn't there. Can't blame him after TDK became bigger than god and Ledger's passing.

There's a difference between what you personally prefer in a trilogy vs. what a trilogy actually is. A trilogy is a series of 3 related stories. Cap and Avengers are 3 related stories. I get the distinction between the MCU and Nolan, but the definition of the word is pretty cut and dry and Cap and Avengers certainly qualify.

Marvel are really pushing the definition of Trilogy with their shared universe. The argument that they can have no trilogies is an interesting one, because if you grant the films the broadest definition of being 3 related works, then you kind of have to acknowledge the other films they appear in because of that definition. If you start narrowing in, on central characters or themes, or if they work as a 3 act story, again you hit a wall because they're so interconnected. Personally, I can't really see any of them as trilogies without a big asterisk next to them. You can't have Iron Man 3 without the events of Avengers, nor Civil War without Ultron. Steve's story works well across the films, but Tony is too important a character in Civil War to exist in that vacuum. James Gunn would have made an interesting set, the first director trilogy, but alas.

 

[Awest66]

I don't think Nolan really wanted to do Rises. He put the work in, but the heart isn't there. Can't blame him after TDK became bigger than god and Ledger's passing.

If he truly didn't want to do it, He would've found a way to back out like Burton did. There's just too much excellent film making in that movie for me to even consider that possibility.

 

[Awest66]

I like TDK most of anything TDK series of the DD show has procuded, but I like DD seasons 1 & 3 more than BB. So tie breaker comes to TDKR, and I enjoy DD season 2 way more than TDKR. So Daredevil wins for me.

The fact that Rises had a main antagonist with clear motivations driving the narrative (Bane), a single plot line that all the characters fed into, actual character development for the hero and consistent characterization (unlike Matt being A-okay with Frank killing at the end or wanting to run away with Elektra) put's that movie way above the second season of Daredevil for me. DD also had much worse story decisions like making the death of Frank Catle's family this big, convoluted conspiracy or Elektra this chosen one character with no agency (Irritating how they never in three seasons of television actually describe what the "Black Sky" is or what it means)

 

[Spider-Fan]

The fact that Rises had a main antagonist with clear motivations driving the narrative (Bane), a single plot line that all the characters fed into, actual character development for the hero and consistent characterization (unlike Matt being A-okay with Frank killing at the end or wanting to run away with Elektra) put's that movie way above the second season of Daredevil for me. DD also had much worse story decisions like making the death of Frank Catle's family this big, convoluted conspiracy or Elektra this chosen one character with no agency (Irritating how they never in three seasons of television actually describe what the "Black Sky" is or what it means)

Bane was not the main antagonist in the end. The film casually tossed him aside at the last minute for the inferior Talia. That was the worst story decision either DD S2 or TDKR made. Bane goes out like a chump. Literally if you blink, you miss him dying. It's garbage.

 

[Iceman]

Bane was not the main antagonist in the end. The film casually tossed him aside at the last minute for the inferior Talia. That was the worst story decision either DD S2 or TDKR made. Bane looks out like a chump. Literally if you blink, you miss him dying. It's garbage.

Imagine the DD show did that with Kingpin!

 

[Brother Jack]

Why are we comparing these exactly?

 

[Awest66]

Bane was not the main antagonist in the end. The film casually tossed him aside at the last minute for the inferior Talia. That was the worst story decision either DD S2 or TDKR made. Bane goes out like a chump. Literally if you blink, you miss him dying. It's garbage.

Literally all the Talia "twist" does is reveal Bane isn't really the child of Ras Al Ghul, That's it. He's still very much the main villain of the movie, The militaristic tone of the movie is a direct result of his character, it's his movie as much as TDK's was the Jokers. None of that is changed by the reveal or the fact that his death isn't the endgame of the movie and honestly, Getting shot by a cannon that can demolish cars isn't exactly what I'd call "going out like a chump". In fact, Bane alone pretty much puts that movie above DD season 2 (considering how remarkably uninteresting the Hand was)

I'd say everything having to do with the Hand (especially the Black Sky nonsense) and over complicating a pretty straight-forward origin story (Punisher) are much worse story decisions than the reveal.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Literally all the Talia "twist" does is reveal Bane isn't really the child of Ras Al Ghul, That's it. He's still very much the main villain of the movie, The militaristic tone of the movie is a direct result of his character, it's his movie as much as TDK's was the Jokers. None of that is changed by the reveal or the fact that his death isn't the endgame of the movie and honestly, Getting shot by a cannon that can demolish cars isn't exactly what I'd call "going out like a chump". In fact, Bane alone pretty much puts that movie above DD season 2 (considering how remarkably uninteresting the Hand was)

I'd say everything having to do with the Hand (especially the Black Sky nonsense) and over complicating a pretty straight-forward origin story (Punisher) are much worse story decisions than the reveal.

Who is it that Batman has to face in the end? Talia. Bane doesn't even meet his end by Batman's hands. He is shot basically in the corner of the frame. The first time I saw it I didn't even know he died. Once Talia makes her reveal, the movie is now all about stopping Talia, but the movie does nothing once she is revealed to be the new mastermind to make me buy her as a threat like I had Bane earlier in the film. It cuts the legs off Bane essentially. I lost respect for Bane, and I never had respect for Talia. Almost as soon as she is revealed, she dies. You cannot do a villain switch that late in the game. The Defenders did that same thing, and it failed there also. Was the Hand great in DD S2? No. But the Penny and Dime scene and early arc with Frank trump anything TDKR gave me. Yeah, TDKR had some great Bane scenes, but as I said earlier once the switch happens, I lost respect for him so those scenes are not as cool anymore. The Penny and dime stuff is never actively undercut like that. At least they were wise enough not to do that.

 

[Awest66]

Who is it that Batman has to face in the end? Talia.

Who was it that Batman had to face at the the end of The Dark Knight? Not the Joker.

Bane doesn't even meet his end by Batman's hands.

Batman still conclusively defeated Bane in a rematch even if he didn't kill him (which he shouldn't because obvious reasons)

. Once Talia makes her reveal, the movie is now all about stopping Talia, but the movie does nothing once she is revealed to be the new mastermind

Where exactly was it ever revealed Talia was the "mastermind" or that Bane was just carrying out her plan the entire time? Because I have watched the reveal scene quite a few times and that never comes up anywhere. If anything it's about Talia essentially glorifying Bane and underlining his importance. As for the "villain switch", I don't agree because it didn't feature Talia taking the reins away from Bane, just putting herself on equal terms with him (and that idea of her true identity and Bane not being the one who escaped the pit is seeded throughout the movie). It's much less jarring, at least for me than Elektra out of nowhere killing Alexandra and declaring herself leader of the Hand.

. But the Penny and Dime scene and early arc with Frank trump anything TDKR gave me.

I don't really understand how all that stuff is not undercut by the complications that follow afterwards because those actively affect the character of the Punisher more than they do Bane. Frank is initially introduced as a psychopath but then it's revealed hes the victim of a brain injury and then it's revealed he's the victim of this cruel conspiracy. Had they picked one of these options and focused on it, it would've been much better. but as it is, It's mistaking plot twists for character development.

The revelation that he's working with (not for Talia) doesn't undercut anything Bane did throughout TDKR.

 

[The Joker]

Why are we comparing these exactly?

SHH tradition. Anything that achieves a status higher than good in the eyes of fans in terms of quality is pitted against the TDK trilogy. Well actually usually its just TDK, and its a CBM not a T.V. show being polled against it.

 

[flickchick85]

Who is it that Batman has to face in the end? Talia. Bane doesn't even meet his end by Batman's hands. He is shot basically in the corner of the frame. The first time I saw it I didn't even know he died. Once Talia makes her reveal, the movie is now all about stopping Talia, but the movie does nothing once she is revealed to be the new mastermind to make me buy her as a threat like I had Bane earlier in the film. It cuts the legs off Bane essentially. I lost respect for Bane, and I never had respect for Talia. Almost as soon as she is revealed, she dies. You cannot do a villain switch that late in the game. The Defenders did that same thing, and it failed there also. Was the Hand great in DD S2? No. But the Penny and Dime scene and early arc with Frank trump anything TDKR gave me. Yeah, TDKR had some great Bane scenes, but as I said earlier once the switch happens, I lost respect for him so those scenes are not as cool anymore. The Penny and dime stuff is never actively undercut like that. At least they were wise enough not to do that.

This is why I think the better way to do it would've been to reveal Talia's identity in the back break scene. They could've still done the "slow knife" monologue and everything. She's already fooled Bruce for as long as she needs to, and then we could've spent the rest of the movie watching her fool everybody else while Bruce is stuck in a hole worlds away helpless to warn anyone. Then we could've seen Talia operating as a villain, playing Gordon & Co. like a fiddle. Marion could've had fun with that, I think. Batman would then know he'd have two villains to track down when he returns, so he enlists Selina's help for that. Bane would've been the big showdown where we could see Batman claim a proper victory, while Selina tracks down Talia/the bomb (maybe that would've let us see Talia fight a little bit, too). I just think that would've been more rewarding for both villains.

 

[Spider-Fan]

This is why I think the better way to do it would've been to reveal Talia's identity in the back break scene. They could've still done the "slow knife" monologue and everything. She's already fooled Bruce for as long as she needs to, and then we could've spent the rest of the movie watching her fool everybody else while Bruce is stuck in a hole worlds away helpless to warn anyone. Then we could've seen Talia operating as a villain, playing Gordon & Co. like a fiddle. Marion could've had fun with that, I think. Batman would then know he'd have two villains to track down when he returns, so he enlists Selina's help for that. Bane would've been the big showdown where we could see Batman claim a proper victory, while Selina tracks down Talia/the bomb (maybe that would've let us see Talia fight a little bit, too). I just think that would've been more rewarding for both villains.

I wholeheartedly agree. Either Talia needed revealed closer to the mid-point of the movie, like your example, or she needed cut from the film entirely. The way they did it just failed.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Who was it that Batman had to face at the the end of The Dark Knight? Not the Joker.



Batman still conclusively defeated Bane in a rematch even if he didn't kill him (which he shouldn't because obvious reasons)



Where exactly was it ever revealed Talia was the "mastermind" or that Bane was just carrying out her plan the entire time? Because I have watched the reveal scene quite a few times and that never comes up anywhere. If anything it's about Talia essentially glorifying Bane and underlining his importance. As for the "villain switch", I don't agree because it didn't feature Talia taking the reins away from Bane, just putting herself on equal terms with him (and that idea of her true identity and Bane not being the one who escaped the pit is seeded throughout the movie). It's much less jarring, at least for me than Elektra out of nowhere killing Alexandra and declaring herself leader of the Hand.



I don't really understand how all that stuff is not undercut by the complications that follow afterwards because those actively affect the character of the Punisher more than they do Bane. Frank is initially introduced as a psychopath but then it's revealed hes the victim of a brain injury and then it's revealed he's the victim of this cruel conspiracy. Had they picked one of these options and focused on it, it would've been much better. but as it is, It's mistaking plot twists for character development.

The revelation that he's working with (not for Talia) doesn't undercut anything Bane did throughout TDKR.

Film is a show me, don't tell me medium. The difference between Talia and Two-Face is Talia was a secret villain all along, while the Two-Face was a cog in the Joker's plan. So Batman is still combating the Joker even if he isn't physically there. Their battle was about ideology. Even when Two-Face dies, Batman says "But the Joker cannot win." Their battle is still on-going in the climax with Two-Face. The battle for Gotham's soul. That's not the case with Bane. The movie can say they were equals and such in the dialogue all they want, but the fact is once she is revealed, Bane is dead in seconds and she is now the sole focus. Again, the film is showing me she is now the real threat and the important plot element. Bane is killed in the corner frame. He no longer matters. That is discarding him and it does devalue past accomplishments. If the movie still works for you, that is great. Good for you. But this is a very big problem for me.