Discussion: Global Warming and Other Environmental Issues

[Tangled Web]

The Kyoto Protocol is a bunch of bulls**t. It was specifically designed against the United States and does nothing to help solve the problem.

It was not it designed to help the world.

 

[hippie_hunter]

It was not it designed to help the world.

You're right. It was designed as a wealth transfer and penalise the United States for being the biggest polluter. The United States was damned if it did ratify it and it was damned if it didn't.

 

[bored]

What was the forecast on May 7, 245 in mid-western United States?

What was the forecast on September 12, 300 BC in eastern Australia?

Don't know? Well, neither does the rest of the global warming community. Those days could have been the hottest the world has ever seen and we would never know about it.

Natural disasters and weather changes happen naturally. It happened with the ice age, and it can happen again. It doesn't take human effort to make it happen. Nature will run it's course. Global warming is nothing more than another grand fear campaign.

Tell you what. How about we just let the UN take over our national forests and reserves so they can protect us from the sun. Let's see how that one works out.

Qui bono?

The 'global warming community'? You have grasp at all on this matter, do you? Btw, you contradict yourself at one point. You say that things change and happen all the time, yet you then refer to global warming as 'another grand fear campaign', which would imply that it isn't happening in any fashion. Which is it?

 

[Backdrifter]

You're right. It was designed as a wealth transfer and penalise the United States for being the biggest polluter. The United States was damned if it did ratify it and it was damned if it didn't.

How so? Are just coming to this deduction on your own? Or did someone just tell you this so you believe it? You all keep saying that it wasnt designed to help...but I have not seen anybody say how or why.

 

[Backdrifter]

I think anybody with moderate skills in observation can pretty much see that the US Envriomental policies are controlled by Oil Industry executives and the level of corruption is widespread. I mean, Bush AND Cheney are former oil execs. Are people really THIS thick? Why the hell are enviromental policies being drawn up by OIL EXECUTIVES?? Thats like making an Anti-Semite the rabbi of a Jewish temple....

 

[hippie_hunter]

How so? Are just coming to this deduction on your own? Or did someone just tell you this so you believe it? You all keep saying that it wasnt designed to help...but I have not seen anybody say how or why.

http://www.tsaugust.org/TSAugust/No To Kyoto.htm#Stop1

 

[hippie_hunter]

I think anybody with moderate skills in observation can pretty much see that the US Envriomental policies are controlled by Oil Industry executives and the level of corruption is widespread. I mean, Bush AND Cheney are former oil execs. Are people really THIS thick? Why the hell are enviromental policies being drawn up by OIL EXECUTIVES?? Thats like making an Anti-Semite the rabbi of a Jewish temple....

Now, I think that we can both agree that the enviromental policies of the Bush Administration are as f**king ******ed as his fiscal policies

 

[Tangled Web]

I notice that you don't consider India nor China to be major countries.

I don't know about you, but I don't consider two of the most populous countries in the world who are both large polluters, because they are developing economies to be minor countries.

Compared to the United States? No. No way in hell are they close to us in science. I don't expect them to save the world. The US has the most power, we should also have the most responsibility.

 

[logansoldcigar]

hey jonty, what kind of business is you want to own again?

 

[hippie_hunter]

Compared to the United States? No. No way in hell are they close to us in science. I don't expect them to save the world. The US has the most power, we should also have the most responsibility.

It doesn't matter how close to us in science they are. The fact is that they are catching up to us as the worlds biggest polluters. In order for a global warming pact to do anything meaningfull, it needs the United States, China, India, Japan, Russia, and the European Union to do something. Not just the United States, Japan, and the European Union.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

http://www.tsaugust.org/TSAugust/No%20To%20Kyoto.htm#Stop1

that's impossibly biased.

 

[Sentinel X]

It doesn't matter how close to us in science they are. The fact is that they are catching up to us as the worlds biggest polluters. In order for a global warming pact to do anything meaningfull, it needs the United States, China, India, Japan, Russia, and the European Union to do something. Not just the United States, Japan, and the European Union.

Im going to have to agree. The US cant be the only one contributing to help stop the greenhouse effect, in that case the kyoto protocol is stupid. Although, I doubt the EU would ever care, their main concern is to make Europe the world power imo. I wish the United nations could get involved in this, If Im not mistaken I think they did try to do a small program involving global warming, or maybe it was another supranational organization. Either way I think some countries might use "help stop global warming" as an excuse to get more political power themselves, which is ridiculous.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Im going to have to agree. The US cant be the only one contributing to help stop the greenhouse effect, in that case the kyoto protocol is stupid. Although, I doubt the EU would ever care, their main concern is to make Europe the world power imo. I wish the United nations could get involved in this, If Im not mistaken I think they did try to do a small program involving global warming, or maybe it was another supranational organization. Either way I think some countries might use "help stop global warming" as an excuse to get more political power themselves, which is ridiculous.

The Kyoto Protocol is a part of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change.

Of course the European Union is trying to make Europe the world power. At certain points of time the United Kingdom, Germany, and France were the greatest superpowers of the world. Now in todays day and age, they can't do it individually so by comming together, they can regain their status as a superpower. Russia is trying to do the same thing. So is China. You really can't blame them.

Also the enviromental policies of the European Union tend to be controlled by Greens, so of course they are going to be in full support of Kyoto.

And to repeat my message. No global warming pact can be really effective without having the United States, Russia, China, India, the European Union, and Japan comming together and doing something. You can't have a pact specifically designed against the United States. You can't have a pact where Russia is profiting off of. You can't have a pact where China and India don't have to do anything at all.

 

[War Lord]

How so? Are just coming to this deduction on your own? Or did someone just tell you this so you believe it? You all keep saying that it wasnt designed to help...but I have not seen anybody say how or why.

The carbon credit is the wealth transfer. The developed economies buy carbon credits from undeveloped economies. It also unnecessarily raises the costs of companies and makes them less competitive.

Transferring theoretical carbon credits does nothing inherent to lessen our impact on the environment.

 

[Sentinel X]

The Kyoto Protocol is a part of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change.

Of course the European Union is trying to make Europe the world power. At certain points of time the United Kingdom, Germany, and France were the greatest superpowers of the world. Now in todays day and age, they can't do it individually so by comming together, they can regain their status as a superpower. Russia is trying to do the same thing. So is China. You really can't blame them.

Also the enviromental policies of the European Union tend to be controlled by Greens, so of course they are going to be in full support of Kyoto.

And to repeat my message. No global warming pact can be really effective without having the United States, Russia, China, India, the European Union, and Japan comming together and doing something. You can't have a pact specifically designed against the United States. You can't have a pact where Russia is profiting off of. You can't have a pact where China and India don't have to do anything at all.

Ermm...I know, I said I agreed with you

 

[Spider-Bite]

sanction their asses if they don't agree to it, and we don't allow corporations to sell in the US unless their products overseas sold are also environmentally friendly.

that goes for cars too. and we can easily switch to solar polar over the next 30 years, and if those car companies want to make a buck off the US? well then their cars better meet the standards all over the earth or they wont sell here, and I bet you Canada, Japan, and all of Europe would tell them the same thing!

 

[hippie_hunter]

sanction their asses if they don't agree to it, and we don't allow corporations to sell in the US unless their products overseas sold are also environmentally friendly.

that goes for cars too. and we can easily switch to solar polar over the next 30 years, and if those car companies want to make a buck off the US? well then their cars better meet the standards all over the earth or they wont sell here, and I bet you Canada, Japan, and all of Europe would tell them the same thing!

Are you talking about sanctioning people who don't agree to the Kyoto Protocol.

And solar power is still a developing technology. It's not something that we can just easily switch too.

 

[logansoldcigar]

Are you talking about sanctioning people who don't agree to the Kyoto Protocol.

And solar power is still a developing technology. It's not something that we can just easily switch too.

Its available through High Street elecronic retailers in the UK(same people you buy yer new TV from). In germany, new housing is built with gray water systems that are self sufficient in electricity. all we need is the demand.Wind turbines no bigger and no more intrusive than a dish for satellite TV. Once more people want it, prices go down.It is viable and available, but not yet affordable with out help.
Governments should offer any citizen that wishes to install these systems tax breaks and grants so that it becomes affordable and creates a demand.

 

[Tangled Web]

It doesn't matter how close to us in science they are. The fact is that they are catching up to us as the worlds biggest polluters. In order for a global warming pact to do anything meaningfull, it needs the United States, China, India, Japan, Russia, and the European Union to do something. Not just the United States, Japan, and the European Union.

It is certainly a group effort but the United States has to get involves.

 

[hippie_hunter]

It is certainly a group effort but the United States has to get involves.

Obviously the United States would have to get involved. But it can't be the only one. And other nations like Russia can't profit off of it.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Its available through High Street elecronic retailers in the UK(same people you buy yer new TV from). In germany, new housing is built with gray water systems that are self sufficient in electricity. all we need is the demand.Wind turbines no bigger and no more intrusive than a dish for satellite TV. Once more people want it, prices go down.It is viable and available, but not yet affordable with out help.
Governments should offer any citizen that wishes to install these systems tax breaks and grants so that it becomes affordable and creates a demand.

But it is still a developing technology. It hasn't been perfected yet. Once it has been perfected I'm all for it.

 

[logansoldcigar]

the tech is sound and works. a single panel installation will, according to the blurb, save close to 30% on a household's electricity bills . the wind turbine, they are saying 20%(I know, the mythical average household ). what we dont have is the affordability: the same panel costs 9k to buy and have installed. it needs to be pushed by the government making it affordable. the maximum grant available is only 2k, and i probably use about £200 in electricity a year..in other words, itll take me 80-90 years to make my money back if install a panel and turbine.

the governement should help create the demand on something as important as this. Monies from the fuel duties should be put aside specifically to help drive this forwards.increase the grants, and hell, no Income tax for anyone getting this tech installed. as the price falls, people will buy it up..and like everything else, it gets cheaper, and then the better and more efficient tech gets developed.

Look at the difference in a car 20 yrs ago comapared to one today. they still worked, but they werent as efficient

 

[hippie_hunter]

the tech is sound and works. a single panel installation will, according to the blurb, save close to 30% on a household's electricity bills . the wind turbine, they are saying 20%(I know, the mythical average household ). what we dont have is the affordability: the same panel costs 9k to buy and have installed. it needs to be pushed by the government making it affordable. the maximum grant available is only 2k, and i probably use about £200 in electricity a year..in other words, itll take me 80-90 years to make my money back if install a panel and turbine.

the governement should help create the demand on something as important as this. Monies from the fuel duties should be put aside specifically to help drive this forwards.increase the grants, and hell, no Income tax for anyone getting this tech installed. as the price falls, people will buy it up..and like everything else, it gets cheaper, and then the better and more efficient tech gets developed.

Look at the difference in a car 20 yrs ago comapared to one today. they still worked, but they werent as efficient

The place I live at is actively opposed to installing wind turbines. My government does provide incentives yet some people just don't want it.

 

[Backdrifter]

Are you talking about sanctioning people who don't agree to the Kyoto Protocol.

And solar power is still a developing technology. It's not something that we can just easily switch too.

We certainly could put a little more effort into making a viable option someday. At this point there is little to no backing with Solar Energy. If we could get the government to back this and throw some money at it and get the technology moving faster we could be probably be 60-70% relying on solar cells in the next 50-60 years.

 

[War Lord]

We certainly could put a little more effort into making a viable option someday. At this point there is little to no backing with Solar Energy. If we could get the government to back this and throw some money at it and get the technology moving faster we could be probably be 60-70% relying on solar cells in the next 50-60 years.

The backing behind solar energy is actually pretty large, considering the relative lack of market. BP, Shell, GM, Ford, and other large corporations are spending billions to develop solar energy, but technology can slow in coming, unless some researcher hits upon a lucky discovery that speeds things up.