Discussion: Healthcare

[BlackLantern]

which is crap....is my money less or more important....just because some skank gets knocked up by her idiot boyfriend, she gets a tax break while I bust my ass 45 hours a week and actually contribute to society its ok to take all my money??

what the ****

 

[dnno1]

but the system is rigged to push people into that because of tax breaks, but it really doesn't offset the cost of raising a family

if you are single in America, you are sooooo screwed on taxes...you get hit up for a lot more and you'll be lucky to get anything back come refund time

Having health care is part of the cost of raising a family. I remember when I was in high school, you had to have health insurance if you wanted to participate in high school athletics. By someone like you not getting health care you are depriving your children something they might want to participate in. Sure, you don't have a family, but you yourself want to stay healthy so that you can continue to make money. Even when I was young and single I still got sick twice a year, had to get eye checkups every year, and needed to get my teeth cleaned every 6 months so I needed health insurance. Your idea of dropping it just to save money might wind up backfiring on you and I wouldn't advise it.

 

[BlackLantern]

advise this you might be cool with taking my paycheck and food off my table to pay for the wastrels of society but I am certainly not

 

[dnno1]

which is crap....is my money less or more important....just because some skank gets knocked up by her idiot boyfriend, she gets a tax break while I bust my ass 45 hours a week and actually contribute to society its ok to take all my money??

what the ****

Sounds like you are putting a price on human life here. If that is the case, then my answer to your callous question is that the life of that so called skank's baby is more important than your little money (at least that should be the response from a right to life'r). Look guy, I bust my but too and probably pay more in taxes than you do and I am not complaining.

 

[BlackLantern]

let someone else pay for her mistake and life choices....not me

 

[dnno1]

advise this you might be cool with taking my paycheck and food off my table to pay for the wastrels of society but I am certainly not

Yo, man. Paying taxes is a civic and patriotic duty. Paying taxes is an important part of being a citizen and ties people more closely to their government. You shouldn't be upset about that.

 

[dnno1]

let someone else pay for her mistake and life choices....not me

Unfortunately you or I have no control over that.

 

[BlackLantern]

its still crap....again I have no problem with taxes, part of life, is what it is....but when you do things like introduce BS government healthcare it gives the lowest common denominator even more reason to not want to excel and be motivated to move above their station in life

 

[hippie_hunter]

Yo, man. Paying taxes is a civic and patriotic duty. Paying taxes is an important part of being a citizen and ties people more closely to their government. You shouldn't be upset about that.

While you are certainly right that paying taxes is a civic duty, but you do realise that the sole reason why we fought against the United Kingdom was because we didn't want to pay our taxes. Opposition to taxes is ingrained in American culuture. I certainly wouldn't call it a patriotic duty....at least in American terms of patriotism.

Also being upset about being tied more closely to government, that is certainly a debatable viewpoint. A progressive such as yourself may not mind, but libertarians and conservatives such as myself, Norman, and many others would find that troubling. It all comes down to how one feels about the size and scope of government and it's rather arrogant to say that a person should feel okay about being closely tied to government.

 

[Anita18]

but the system is rigged to push people into that because of tax breaks, but it really doesn't offset the cost of raising a family

if you are single in America, you are sooooo screwed on taxes...you get hit up for a lot more and you'll be lucky to get anything back come refund time

If you're earning $33K a year and not getting a refund even after filing as a single person, you're doing it wrong.

I earn more (slightly) and I got a refund last year. And no funny business either, just H&R Block's free online program.

While you are certainly right that paying taxes is a civic duty, but you do realise that the sole reason why we fought against the United Kingdom was because we didn't want to pay our taxes. Opposition to taxes is ingrained in American culuture. I certainly wouldn't call it a patriotic duty....at least in American terms of patriotism.

Nay, it was "taxation without representation." They were taxing us without any permission and having the money directly shipped off to England. At least when we pay taxes here, we know where it's going.

It'd be like if you were forced to pay taxes for some company's corporate jet without getting any say in it.

We vote for the people who will be raising/lowering our taxes, so it doesn't apply to us.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Nay, it was "taxation without representation." They were taxing us without any permission and having the money directly shipped off to England. At least when we pay taxes here, we know where it's going.

It'd be like if you were forced to pay taxes for some company's corporate jet without getting any say in it.

We vote for the people who will be raising/lowering our taxes, so it doesn't apply to us.

Guess what? The people of the American colonies were British subjects and were thus subject to British laws and taxation. And they weren't a part of the United Kingdom proper and thus were not entitled to proper representation in Parliament. That would be like if Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and the Northern Marina Islands got proper representation in Congress.

Not only that but the money collected from those taxes were meant to pay for the protection of the American colonies from Native Americans and European aggressors. It wasn't meant to fund British operations outside of North America.

Taxation of the American colonies was within Britain's right and if you believe in a functional military to protect you, was reasonable. The plain and simple fact is that we didn't want to pay perfectly legal taxes. Sentiments that continue onto today. Except this time we vote out politicians we blame for raising taxes as opposed to secession and fighting wars.

 

[dnno1]

While you are certainly right that paying taxes is a civic duty, but you do realise that the sole reason why we fought against the United Kingdom was because we didn't want to pay our taxes. Opposition to taxes is ingrained in American culuture. I certainly wouldn't call it a patriotic duty....at least in American terms of patriotism.

Also being upset about being tied more closely to government, that is certainly a debatable viewpoint. A progressive such as yourself may not mind, but libertarians and conservatives such as myself, Norman, and many others would find that troubling. It all comes down to how one feels about the size and scope of government and it's rather arrogant to say that a person should feel okay about being closely tied to government.

It was because there was no representation behind them. That is not the case here. The money goes to benefit the people of this country. Even if it doesn't necessarily benefit you directly, it will still do so indirectly. Keeping that poor or disadvantaged person from getting sick may prevent you from getting sick as well and that's a good thing.

I think you libertarians and conservatives need to get over this fear of government. The government is comprised of us (society) and is us, so why should we be so troubled by ourselves? We sometimes if not all the time need the government involved someway in our lives to keep it peaceful and coherent (this is why we formed a government in the first place). If it there was no government we would be in feudalism or anarchy which in either case is not desirable by anyone I know.

 

[Anita18]

Guess what? The people of the American colonies were British subjects and were thus subject to British laws and taxation. And they weren't a part of the United Kingdom proper and thus were not entitled to proper representation in Parliament. That would be like if Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and the Northern Marina Islands got proper representation in Congress.

Not only that but the money collected from those taxes were meant to pay for the protection of the American colonies from Native Americans and European aggressors. It wasn't meant to fund British operations outside of North America.

Taxation of the American colonies was within Britain's right and if you believe in a functional military to protect you, was reasonable. The plain and simple fact is that we didn't want to pay perfectly legal taxes. Sentiments that continue onto today. Except this time we vote out politicians we blame for raising taxes as opposed to secession and fighting wars.

I think it was just a violent reaction in differing philosophies. Wikipedia (what? I'm no historian...) says that the colonists were more pissed at lack of representation than anything else, even though most of Britain wasn't represented the way we wanted either...

And do Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, the Virgin Islands, and N. Marina Islands have to pay the same taxes we do? I actually don't know.

 

[BlackLantern]

depends on who you talk to....those of us that can forage, survive, and defend ourselves would do fine

don't know about you

 

[hippie_hunter]

It was because there was no representation behind them. That is not the case here. The money goes to benefit the people of this country. Even if it doesn't necessarily benefit you directly, it will still do so indirectly. Keeping that poor or disadvantaged person from getting sick may prevent you from getting sick as well and that's a good thing.

And you can argue that Obama and Congress failed to represent the nation due to how massively unpopular the health care reform bill was (and still is).

Not only that but the money collected from the British from the taxes on the American colonies were meant to benefit the people of the American colonies.

Also, my immune system is nearly invincible.

I think you libertarians and conservatives need to get over this fear of government. The government is comprised of us (society) and is us, so why should we be so troubled by ourselves? We sometime if not all the time need the government involved someway in our lives to keep it peaceful and coherent. If it there was no government we would be in feudalism or anarchy which in either case is not desirable.

Libertarians and conservatives aren't calling for no government. We just want limited government. We see larger government as a threat to freedom and individuality. Limited government does not equate to anarchy or feudalism.

And in today's day and age, the government often doesn't represent what the people want or the interests of the people. The people want less government spending, they did not want Obamacare, etc. and yet we have Obama arrogantly declaring that we will eventually learn to love it and continues to spend us into oblivion. And I think that we can both agree that George W. Bush utterly failed to represnt the interests of the American people both at home and abroad.

 

[Anita18]

Also, my immune system is nearly invincible.

You'd better watch it. I used to crow about my iron stomach all the time until I got the stomach flu and even almost a year later, I have to watch what I eat.

 

[dnno1]

Guess what? The people of the American colonies were British subjects and were thus subject to British laws and taxation. And they weren't a part of the United Kingdom proper and thus were not entitled to proper representation in Parliament. That would be like if Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and the Northern Marina Islands got proper representation in Congress.

Not only that but the money collected from those taxes were meant to pay for the protection of the American colonies from Native Americans and European aggressors. It wasn't meant to fund British operations outside of North America.

Taxation of the American colonies was within Britain's right and if you believe in a functional military to protect you, was reasonable. The plain and simple fact is that we didn't want to pay perfectly legal taxes. Sentiments that continue onto today. Except this time we vote out politicians we blame for raising taxes as opposed to secession and fighting wars.

No, the money went to England to pay for the war debts (remember the French and Indian war?). It was also used to allow the British East India Corporation cheap access to markets in the colonies and push out competitors like the Dutch and colonial privateers. I will not argue the right of the British to envoke taxes, but I will argue that the British military was there more to protect the interest of the crown in the colonies than the livelihood of the colonists.

 

[BlackLantern]

and elected officials today are more concerned with keeping their seats and all the perks that come with it then looking out for the interests of the American people

 

[hippie_hunter]

I think it was just a violent reaction in differing philosophies. Wikipedia (what? I'm no historian...) says that the colonists were more pissed at lack of representation than anything else, even though most of Britain wasn't represented the way we wanted either...

It all comes down to economics. We didn't want to pay perfectly legal taxes. Britain decided to enforce the tax laws, a little to harshly I might add. That led to more resentment. And all that led to more anger and whatnot to the point where the Revolution was fought.

And do Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, the Virgin Islands, and N. Marina Islands have to pay the same taxes we do? I actually don't know.

The people Puerto Rico, the Northern Marinana Islands, American Samoa, and the U.S. Virgin Islands don't pay the exact same taxes we do, but they have to pay various other federal taxes. Federal law also applies to territories of the United States. And the people there don't have proper representation.

 

[dnno1]

And you can argue that Obama and Congress failed to represent the nation due to how massively unpopular the health care reform bill was (and still is).

Not only that but the money collected from the British from the taxes on the American colonies were meant to benefit the people of the American colonies.

Also, my immune system is nearly invincible.

That's not the meaning of taxation with representation. It is actually when you get something for your tax dollars. As far as popularity goes, one could easily argue that the public opinion on the health care issue was grotesquely compromised by the insurance industry and opponents of HCR.

Libertarians and conservatives aren't calling for no government. We just want limited government. We see larger government as a threat to freedom and individuality. Limited government does not equate to anarchy or feudalism.

Are you trying to say that Rand Paul is not a libertarian?

And in today's day and age, the government often doesn't represent what the people want or the interests of the people. The people want less government spending, they did not want Obamacare, etc. and yet we have Obama arrogantly declaring that we will eventually learn to love it and continues to spend us into oblivion. And I think that we can both agree that George W. Bush utterly failed to represnt the interests of the American people both at home and abroad.

I think what you are seeing is that not everybody is satisfied or agree with everything the government does, but you can not satisfy everybody. That just a proven fact. What the government does is follow the constitution the best it can and it attempts to provide for the common defense and promote the general welfare of its people. Just because not everybody is happy with what government does in no way indicates that it is not doing its job.

 

[hippie_hunter]

No, the money went to England to pay for the war debts (remember the French and Indian war?). It was also used to allow the British East India Corporation cheap access to markets in the colonies and push out competitors like the Dutch and colonial privateers. I will not argue the right of the British to envoke taxes, but I will argue that the British military was there more to protect the interest of the crown in the colonies than the livelihood of the colonists.

You mean the war that was fought on behalf of the American colonies?

Not only that but North America was still very volitile after the French and Indian War. The French were kicked out but there was still the Spanish to deal with. And the American colonists were antagonizing the indiginous populations there due to their expansions so no only did they have to protect the colonies from potential Spanish agression, they had to protect their subjects from rightfully angry Native Americans.

Yeah, the British did want to push out competition, but the primary purpose of those taxes were to pay off debts that the colonies incurred and pay to protect them.

 

[hippie_hunter]

That's not the meaning of taxation with representation. It is actually when you get something for your tax dollars.

The American colonists got something from being taxed. The people of American territories outside of the United States get something from being taxed.

As far as popularity goes, one could easily argue that the public opinion on the health care issue was grotesquely compromised by the insurance industry and opponents of HCR.

Are you trying to say that Rand Paul is not a libertarian?

He holds libertarian beliefs, but he certainly isn't the libertarian that his father is.

I think what you are seeing is that not everybody is satisfied or agree with everything the government does, but you can not satisfy everybody. That just a proven fact. What the government does is follow the constitution the best it can and it attempts to provide for the common defense and promote the general welfare of its people. Just because not everybody is happy with what government does in no way indicates that it is not doing its job.

LOL! The government is nowhere near at following the Constitution the best it can and it's filled with politicians who are more concerned with their own interests than those of the people they "represent"

 

[chaseter]

We got British protection from taxes over here in the colonies until we rebelled.

 

[chaseter]

Don't be ridiculous.

I have to when you construct your reply by taking what I say to the absolute farthest fringe.

 

[TimBisley]

Saying that taxes led to the Revolution is like saying slavery cause the Civil War. Sure, it was an aspect of the cause, but not the whole reason. Its an oversimplification. Junior High history.