Discussion: Labor, Unions, and Workers' Rights

[Axl Van Sixx]

You're right that it won't be easy. But until it happens, nothing fundamental will ever change.

When you say there's a benefit to people like Bernie and AOC having power, I think what you're really saying is that it's nice to have anyone in Congress that purports to represent the interests of working class people. And yes, that is better than the vast majority of the U.S. Congress. But the problem is that by chaining themselves to the Democratic Party, these politicians end up being "sheepdogs" that channel any left discontent back into the Democrats and prevent real change.

I understand your skepticism towards third parties, but the poor record of third parties so far is in part because they've had so few resources behind them. Now imagine if the trade union movement seriously broke from the Democrats and formed a mass labor party. Labor unions are the only force in American society powerful enough to combat corporate influence. A labor party with the backing of the trade unions would quickly become a significant force on the political scene. If the likes of Bernie and AOC have the courage of their convictions, they might very well join such a new party. If not, they're only confirming that they have no interest in challenging the status quo.

 

[The Overlord]

You're right that it won't be easy. But until it happens, nothing fundamental will ever change.

When you say there's a benefit to people like Bernie and AOC having power, I think what you're really saying is that it's nice to have anyone in Congress that purports to represent the interests of working class people. And yes, that is better than the vast majority of the U.S. Congress. But the problem is that by chaining themselves to the Democratic Party, these politicians end up being "sheepdogs" that channel any left discontent back into the Democrats and prevent real change.

I understand your skepticism towards third parties, but the poor record of third parties so far is in part because they've had so few resources behind them. Now imagine if the trade union movement seriously broke from the Democrats and formed a mass labor party. Labor unions are the only force in American society powerful enough to combat corporate influence. A labor party with the backing of the trade unions would quickly become a significant force on the political scene. If the likes of Bernie and AOC have the courage of their convictions, they might very well join such a new party. If not, they're only confirming that they have no interest in challenging the status quo.

But unions are currently weak, how many Americans belong to unions currently, like 10%?

I think you are putting the cart before the horse, you can't have unions go from movement weakened since the Reagan era to being powerful enough to overcome the 2 party system without a ton of time and work, maybe decades.

How are we supposed to increase union power when several states have right to work laws, those laws make sure unions will always be weak. I think you need people like Sanders or AOC to fight against these laws. Frankly I think it would very hard for any union to gain any real power in a "right to work" state.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

Unions are still behind every significant uptick in the class struggle, like the teachers' strikes last year in California, Arizona and West Virginia. It was the labor movement's threat to strike at airports that ended the government shutdown in the early months of 2019.

Any serious movement to challenge the two-party system will emerge from the labor movement, IMHO.

 

[The Overlord]

Unions are still behind every significant uptick in the class struggle, like the teachers' strikes last year in California, Arizona and West Virginia. It was the labor movement's threat to strike at airports that ended the government shutdown in the early months of 2019.

Any serious movement to challenge the two-party system will emerge from the labor movement, IMHO.

Sure, but unions are not strong enough at the moment to challenge the 2 party system.

States with right to work laws have a framework that weakens unions, as long as those laws are on the books, unions will be weak in those states.

Amazon workers are not unionized for example, you have actually create new unions to represent these people and overcome Amazon's anti union tactics:

How Amazon is fighting back against workers' increasing efforts to unionize

I am not saying you are wrong, but I think we have to rebuild the union movement before it can challenge the 2 party system.

 

[InCali]

Unions are still behind every significant uptick in the class struggle, like the teachers' strikes last year in California, Arizona and West Virginia. It was the labor movement's threat to strike at airports that ended the government shutdown in the early months of 2019.

Any serious movement to challenge the two-party system will emerge from the labor movement, IMHO.

I tend to agree. As someone who helped to organize and grow an independent, public sector union, I can tell you it is painstaking process that requires constant care. While, there has been a decline in union membership, there are certain key sectors (healthcare, transportation, education, etc.) where labor holds has a strong footprint.

 

[The Overlord]

I tend to agree. As someone who helped to organize and grow an independent, public sector union, I can tell you it is painstaking process that requires constant care. While, there has been a decline in union membership, there are certain key sectors (healthcare, transportation, education, etc.) where labor holds has a strong footprint.

I do think rebuilding the union movement is important, unionization would help a lot of workers get fairer treatment. But I think in many areas we would starting from scratch, like Amazon workers.

 

[InCali]

I do think rebuilding the union movement is important, unionization would help a lot of workers get fairer treatment. But I think in many areas we would starting from scratch, like Amazon workers.

That's okay. We started out in a Fresno hotel room with about 20 people from 5 or 6 campuses of the University of California. During the next 5 years, we established campus locals at every campus and medical center and got the membership up to about 600. At that point, we established an affiliation committee and ended up with The Communications Workers of America. We were able to get the funding to have representation elections for technical, research, and health care workers and now represent, and have negotiate multiple contracts for, over 12,000 employees at the University. It takes developing a particular skill set, but if you dedicate yourself, it can be done.

 

[OtherwiseKnownAs]

As a socialist, my position on workers and unions are pretty-clear: Unions are the back-bone of the American workforce, and every single worker in America should be part of a union. I started out making $12.20 at my current job. Right now I’m making $18.20. I would’ve been fired several times over if not for my Union protecting.

Production and Labor in America has increased significantly since the 70’s, and yet, despite the fact that CEO’s are given multi-million dollar paychecks, worker wages have remained stagnant. That is absolutely unacceptable.

I think all businesses should be completely, 100% worker-owned. I think the biggest problem with the two-party system is neither of them are a “labor/worker” party. They’re both a Corporate Party. No real change will happen until workers are empowered again.

Speaking of unions, this includes sex workers as well. It’s time to legalize, and unionize sex workers. They’re one of the most vulnerable contingent in America, and they need and deserve protection.

 

[InCali]

As a socialist, my position on workers and unions are pretty-clear: Unions are the back-bone of the American workforce, and every single worker in America should be part of a union. I started out making $12.20 at my current job. Right now I’m making $18.20. I would’ve been fired several times over if not for my Union protecting.

Production and Labor in America has increased significantly since the 70’s, and yet, despite the fact that CEO’s are given multi-million dollar paychecks, worker wages have remained stagnant. That is absolutely unacceptable.

I think all businesses should be completely, 100% worker-owned. I think the biggest problem with the two-party system is neither of them are a “labor/worker” party. They’re both a Corporate Party. No real change will happen until workers are empowered again.

Speaking of unions, this includes sex workers as well. It’s time to legalize, and unionize sex workers. They’re one of the most vulnerable contingent in America, and they need and deserve protection.

You probably won't be shocked to find out that the University came after me on several occasions because I went after them on more than that.

Once it was because I made phone calls from my desk to various union offices. This despite HEERA (the law covering public employees in California) specifically granting reasonable access to electronic and other communication.

You would laugh at some of the grievances I've seen and handled. One guy got fired because he worked in a computer center and pissed in a potted tree. You'd think that was pretty odd. Right? LOL. We'll, it wasn't. His boss told him he would be written up if he left the operations room for any reason. He got off and the boss took the heat.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

 

[The Overlord]

I will say I think class politics and identity politics can and should help each other.

Corporate Democrats just ignore class altogether to just pay lip service to identity politics, while not providing any real benefit to anyone (like saying we need more female billionaires or more trans drone pilots when frankly there shouldn't be billionaires or drone warfare). Those corporate democrats just want to please their donors.

But you do have some leftists, like British Communist party official Jody Brauer, who was talking with some Nazbol psycho and said trans issues were not a thing.

I would post the video about that, but it has swearing in it, so it can't be posted here.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

Class politics are not separate from the struggle against racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and all other forms of oppression. They're all part of the same fight. As Malcolm X said, "You can't have capitalism without racism."

Identity politics has become the dominant capitalist ideology today because it divides working people along lines of race, gender, etc. For that reason, it's very useful to the ruling class. Keeping people focused on race, gender, etc. does not threaten the exploitative economic structures of society. But it would be incorrect to say that fighting other forms of oppression is a "distraction" from class struggle. Rather, they are necessary to win the class struggle.

Think of a group of striking workers on a picket line. Any attempt to divide workers based on their racial identity, gender identity or whatever will have the effect of dividing the union and weakening their fight against the bosses. At the same time, individual workers who might hold bigoted attitudes can find their consciousness changing in the course of a labor struggle. It's harder to discriminate against someone when you have to fight shoulder-to-shoulder to win higher wages or defend your pension.

A couple of good articles on this subject:

Marxism vs Intersectionality

Marxism vs. Identity Politics

 

[The Overlord]

Class politics are not separate from the struggle against racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and all other forms of oppression. They're all part of the same fight. As Malcolm X said, "You can't have capitalism without racism."

Identity politics has become the dominant capitalist ideology today because it divides working people along lines of race, gender, etc. For that reason, it's very useful to the ruling class. Keeping people focused on race, gender, etc. does not threaten the exploitative economic structures of society. But it would be incorrect to say that fighting other forms of oppression is a "distraction" from class struggle. Rather, they are necessary to win the class struggle.

Think of a group of striking workers on a picket line. Any attempt to divide workers based on their racial identity, gender identity or whatever will have the effect of dividing the union and weakening their fight against the bosses. At the same time, individual workers who might hold bigoted attitudes can find their consciousness changing in the course of a labor struggle. It's harder to discriminate against someone when you have to fight shoulder-to-shoulder to win higher wages or defend your pension.

A couple of good articles on this subject:

Marxism vs Intersectionality

Marxism vs. Identity Politics

Sure, I am just saying someone like Jody Brauer, an official with the British Communist party saying trans issues are not real and thus don't matter, is a good way to exclude workers who just happen to be trans. Like I said, I can't post that video about her, due to some swearing in it, but I thought it was interesting, it was done by a Canadian Anarchist.

Now I am not overly sensitive either, I like the left comedy of the ''Dirtbag Left'', like Chapo Traphouse.

That is why I think there can still be a benefit to getting leftists elected where ever you can, even in a mostly neoliberal organization like the Democrats, because they can promote policies that could help marginalized groups.

That being said, none of this ignores direct action, one could focus on making a new party, but
I think systemic issues would make that very difficult, even though personally I think an actual real left-wing party would be good for the US.

I do think having a variety of tactics is good. I think different leftists can argue about different tactics in good faith.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

Sure, I am just saying someone like Jody Brauer, an official with the British Communist party saying trans issues are not real and thus don't matter, is a good way to exclude workers who just happen to be trans. Like I said, I can't post that video about her, due to some swearing in it, but I thought it was interesting, it was done by a Canadian Anarchist.

Britain in particular seems to have a real problem with transphobia. But the parties you're referring to are Stalinist and for that reason have a long tradition of backward, reactionary attitudes when it comes to the rights of LBGTQ+ people.

That is why I think there can still be a benefit to getting leftists elected where ever you can, even in a mostly neoliberal organization like the Democrats, because they can promote policies that could help marginalized groups.

That being said, none of this ignores direct action, one could focus on making a new party, but
I think systemic issues would make that very difficult, even though personally I think an actual real left-wing party would be good for the US.

I do think having a variety of tactics is good. I think different leftists can argue about different tactics in good faith.

The main issue is that the Democrats are fundamentally a capitalist, big business party. There's a qualitative difference between the Democrats and parties like Labour in Britain, which despite the rise of neoliberal politicians like Tony Blair remains a labor party with an organic link to the trade unions.

We've seen what happens when a progressive politician with concrete policies to benefit the working class tries to advance in the Democratic Party: Bernie Sanders. The party launched an all-out campaign to destroy Sanders by any means necessary. Despite the fact that Sanders was the only candidate in the 2020 Democratic primaries who could garner any mass enthusiasm, and that Trump was portrayed as an existential, Hitler-like threat, the party chose to unite behind a senile right-wing politician known for his racist policies promoting mass incarceration of black people and his leading role in supporting the Iraq War.

The lesson of the Sanders campaigns in 2016 and 2020 is that the Democrats are not a progressive party and will never allow someone with those kinds of policies to rise to a position of leadership. That's why workers need their own party.

 

[The Overlord]

Britain in particular seems to have a real problem with transphobia. But the parties you're referring to are Stalinist and for that reason have a long tradition of backward, reactionary attitudes when it comes to the rights of LBGTQ+ people.

These parties are still around and claim to represent the Left, the fact she was speaking with a Nazbol does not help.

The main issue is that the Democrats are fundamentally a capitalist, big business party. There's a qualitative difference between the Democrats and parties like Labour in Britain, which despite the rise of neoliberal politicians like Tony Blair remains a labor party with an organic link to the trade unions.

We've seen what happens when a progressive politician with concrete policies to benefit the working class tries to advance in the Democratic Party: Bernie Sanders. The party launched an all-out campaign to destroy Sanders by any means necessary. Despite the fact that Sanders was the only candidate in the 2020 Democratic primaries who could garner any mass enthusiasm, and that Trump was portrayed as an existential, Hitler-like threat, the party chose to unite behind a senile right-wing politician known for his racist policies promoting mass incarceration of black people and his leading role in supporting the Iraq War.

The lesson of the Sanders campaigns in 2016 and 2020 is that the Democrats are not a progressive party and will never allow someone with those kinds of policies to rise to a position of leadership. That's why workers need their own party.

I kinda agree with Trump a grave threat, but mainly because I share Chomsky's view of the GOP:

Noam Chomsky on why the Republican Party is the most 'dangerous organisation in human history'

I do not think the Democrats are good, but I think to say they and the GOP are just the same, misses a big point on how much the GOP is linked to white nationalism.

I think there is a real debate within the leftist community on whether voting for Biden is a harm reduction measure or not. I do not like Biden, but I can see the argument from both sides.

I also think there is a benefit using honey rather than vinegar when dealing with some of the liberals on this board. I think people will upset if you call Biden senile and assume you are being ageist. That being said, I think his record is fair game:



A lot of people just want Trump out of there and will pick a ham sandwich over Trump, Biden will likely win the election and our opinions on whether he was a good choice at all will not change that.

That being said, if Biden, we can be clear-eyed about him and people will not assume he is an agent of change like Obama was claimed to be and we can still use direct action to achieve change.

I do think electing say leftists DAs is good, no matter if they are Democrat or not, IMO.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

I do not think the Democrats are good, but I think to say they and the GOP are just the same, misses a big point on how much the GOP is linked to white nationalism.

Let's not forget how the Democrats also appealed to white nationalism during the Clinton era through their support for policies such as mass incarceration. At this point both capitalist parties adhere to a brand of identity politics, in which both claim to stand for different identities. Yet the only people who really win are the rich, no matter which party is in power.

I think there is a real debate within the leftist community on whether voting for Biden is a harm reduction measure or not. I do not like Biden, but I can see the argument from both sides.

I also think there is a benefit using honey rather than vinegar when dealing with some of the liberals on this board. I think people will upset if you call Biden senile and assume you are being ageist. That being said, I think his record is fair game:



A lot of people just want Trump out of there and will pick a ham sandwich over Trump, Biden will likely win the election and our opinions on whether he was a good choice at all will not change that.

That being said, if Biden, we can be clear-eyed about him and people will not assume he is an agent of change like Obama was claimed to be and we can still use direct action to achieve change.

I do think electing say leftists DAs is good, no matter if they are Democrat or not, IMO.

I refer you to the following article:

Their "Harm Reduction" and Ours

 

[The Overlord]

Let's not forget how the Democrats also appealed to white nationalism during the Clinton era through their support for policies such as mass incarceration. At this point both capitalist parties adhere to a brand of identity politics, in which both claim to stand for different identities. Yet the only people who really win are the rich, no matter which party is in power.

I kinda agree with that, but I also agree with Chomsky's assessment on the GOP.

I am not going defend the Democrat's stance on these issues, because I can't. All I can say is I think the GOP has a coherent racist ideology and I do not think that is the case with the Democrats:

I refer you to the following article:

Their "Harm Reduction" and Ours

Fair enough, I just think there may be more debate between actual leftists (not just liberals, but leftists) who will argue with each other about whether voting for Biden is harm reduction or not, then you realize.

Frankly, I won't defend Biden against criticism I think warranted though and I think the Overton window in the US needs to change, the choice between a center-right and far-right party is putting the US in a loop that never ends.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

The GOP is clearly positioning itself as the party of racist whites, but at the same time, that's been the case since 1968.

I feel like the 2020 election is a bit of a wash. Workers will need to struggle for their rights no matter who comes to power.

 

[The Overlord]

The GOP is clearly positioning itself as the party of racist whites, but at the same time, that's been the case since 1968.

I feel like the 2020 election is a bit of a wash. Workers will need to struggle for their rights no matter who comes to power.

I think regardless of the winner of this election, we will need to continue direct action.

I think you would like something called BreadTube, where various leftists try to present left-wing ideas in a fun, yet interesting way, I think that has a mass appeal.

BreadTube - Wikipedia


They are taking on the alt right's previous dominance in this space.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

I think regardless of the winner of this election, we will need to continue direct action.

I think you would like something called BreadTube, where various leftists try to present left-wing ideas in a fun, yet interesting way, I think that has a mass appeal.

BreadTube - Wikipedia


They are taking on the alt right's previous dominance in this space.

I've heard of BreadTube. My understanding of it is that it's primarily made of anarchists.

The question of Marxism vs. anarchism is an old one. Basically, Marxists and anarchists both want the same thing: a classless, stateless society. We just disagree on how to get there.

Lately, though, I've been reading more articles from It's Going Down, an anarchist and anti-fascist website. They have a lot of good material on the struggle against fascism and white nationalism.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

Essential Workers Hold Walkouts and Protests in National 'Strike for Black Lives'

To borrow some slogans from Socialist Revolution, U.S. section of the International Marxist Tendency:

• To fight killer cops, fight capitalism!
• For working-class unity—we can trust only in our own strength and organizations! An injury to one is an injury to all!
• Build democratically elected and accountable neighborhood self-defense committees everywhere!
• Organized labor must join the movement, facilitate the linking up of the neighborhood committees, call a general strike, and bring the country to a halt!
• Down with Trump, the Republicans, and the Democrats!
• For a mass working-class socialist party and a workers’ government to replace the capitalist state, its police, and institutions!

 

[The Overlord]

I've heard of BreadTube. My understanding of it is that it's primarily made of anarchists.

The question of Marxism vs. anarchism is an old one. Basically, Marxists and anarchists both want the same thing: a classless, stateless society. We just disagree on how to get there.

Lately, though, I've been reading more articles from It's Going Down, an anarchist and anti-fascist website. They have a lot of good material on the struggle against fascism and white nationalism.

I think Chapo Traphouse isn't anarchist.

But yeah, a lot of them are anarchists, but leftists are not a hive mind, no matter what the right says, different leftists will have different ideas on to move forward, they will argue with each other sometimes. Heck, there are different types of anarchists. I think like-minded people disagreeing about some key points is inevitable.

But that doesn't change the fact that BreadTube is making left-wing ideas more appealing to young people and its important to reach a mass audience, otherwise, you just leave that stuff to the alt-right, who have been radicalizing young people for years now.

Also, Michael Brooks died yesterday and that is tragic:

Michael Brooks, Political Commentator and Podcast Host, Dies at 37 - Variety

 

[Lily Adler]

1.4 million more are now on unemployment.

 

[Schlosser85]

Dipping my toe into some of these threads makes me realize I'm more of a moderate/centrist than a leftist, because I feel alienated a lot of the time.

 

[Lily Adler]

Dipping my toe into some of these threads makes me realize I'm more of a moderate/centrist than a leftist, because I feel alienated a lot of the time.

Just think in twenty more years you will be considered a conservative by their standards and we would be centrists.