Discussion in 'Politics' started by Thread Manager, Feb 4, 2011.
This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]290666[/split]
The Fairtax: I would like to tell everyone in this country about this tax plan. Please read everything below and post any questions you have. Please critique it, please ask questions. I will answer any and every question, but please be civil. This is not a Democrat vs. Republican issue. This is just a way for you to receive 100% of your paycheck and bring more jobs to this country. Please dont make this a partisan debate. Please be civil. I wrote every word on this post, do me the courtesy of doing as I asked. Thank you, now onto the Fairtax:
2. Corporate Taxes Embedded Taxes.
We need a Fairtax. The Fairtax, or HR 25 as known in Congress, is a comprehensive Tax plan to overhaul the entire US Tax Code by eliminating the following:
-Social Security Taxes
All of these taxes will be balled up and place at the end of the retail sale, called the Fairtax. I will be going into detail how these taxes affect the Retail price and the economy as a whole.
You receive 100% of your paycheck. No more Income taxes to be taken out of it. You actually see what your real pay is. I cant stress this enough. 100% of your paycheck! Currently, if you make $50,000 a year, you are paying about $16,500 in Federal Taxes alone. The average is about 33%, nationwide. With all of the Income taxes and Payroll taxes are out, you get to see a shiny check with 100% of the money you earned!
2. Corporate Taxes, Embedded Taxes
Corporate Taxes are a Myth. If you ever hear a Politian come out and say that they want to lower your taxes by taxing Big Corporations, they are lying to you. Read more to learn how:
HYPOTHECITAL SITUATION: Im going to make the math simple, but the principle is still the same: Image I make Widgets. These are amazing widgets. 100% Made in America Widget. Everyone needs one of my amazing Widgets. I run the Business and I hired someone to make Widgets. It currently costs me $50 to make a widget. I sell this Amazing Widget for $100. That is a 50% markup. That means after I sell this Widget, I have $50 gross profit and $50 to go out and make another Widget. This year we had a great year, I report to the Government by April 15th that I sold 100 Widgets. That means that I made great profit! Now I can invest in a 2nd Widgeteer and we can hopefully sell 200 Widgets next year! The government looks at the Reporting I sent in April 15. The Politicians who want to get elected go out and tell their Voters, Im going to lower your taxes by taxing the Evil Widget Makers, they have Record Profits this year! Now they lower the Income Taxes by .03% per Person! But the Government has to make up the lost revenue somewhere so they tax my Widgets. The Government lost $300 dollars, so now they tax me an extra $300 a year.
I could do one of a few things, (Option #1) fire my new Widgeteer to keep my Widgets the same cost, now that is affecting this young aspiring Widgeteer. Or (Option #2) I could start to order cheaper Widget Making Parts from China. Now, that means that the People that supplied the Widget Making Parts in America are out of a Job and the end consumer doesnt have as a high quality Widget that they once had. Or (Option #3) I increase the prices of the Widgets. Any way you look at it, the Somebody loses.
Consumer pays all taxes in this country. Not Evil Corporations, you and me. Lets look at Option #3. The Widgeteers make $250 a year, and pays 30% income tax and 3% in Medicare and Social Security taxes. That is going to leave the Widgeteer with only $167.50 on his paycheck. Less money to save for his kids college, or that fancy TV or even food.
As a business owner who only makes 50% margin, I have to pay payroll taxes, this Widget tax of $300 a year, Matching Medicare and Social Security Taxes. I have to past this cost in the price of my Widgets to make up for the Embedded taxes. This makes the price of Widgets go up.
In the End, Consumers always pays.
In a Fairtax world, there are no Income Taxes; the Widgeteer takes home the $250 he was hired at. The Business owner doesnt have to file with the Government on Profits. There are no Payroll Taxes. This will lower the Price of the goods, by an equal amount of the taxes that were applied and then the 23% Fairtax is applied at the end, so the Consumer sees exactly what he is paying for and pays the tax and gets his Amazing Widget. No Paperwork, no filing, everything is visible and out in the open. Not a burdensome, impossible to understand tax code.
Currently with our tax code, the Taxes are built into the price on the goods we sell over seas. This inflated cost on goods only hurt the American Manufacture and his employees back home. Now in a Fairtax world, these widgets are sent to an overseas market. The Fair Tax is not applied to it since it is not sold in the United States. This will make the Widget market in that country really favor the American Made Widget, costs on the widget is down 23% compared to before, we know that American craftsmanship is the best in the world. They gobble it up. Now back home, The Widget Manufacturer needs to hire more Widgeteers, and order more supplies from the Widget Making Parts People. More and more good news at home! More money for the Widget Manufacturer means more he can pay his Employees. More Jobs!
Now, the International Variant of the Widget Manufacturer gets wind of the ZERO Taxes that Corporations have to pay, unlike in their Home Country. What do they do? IVWM sets up shop in the United States and bringing jobs and money pouring back into the American Economy. That would Increase the Value of the Widgeteer, I mean, he went to school a long time to be a Widgeteer.
In Washington, you have 2 breeds of people: Lobbyists and Politician. Politicians write the Tax Laws, Lobbyists work for Corporations looking for Exclusions. By taxing every good and Service, you dont leave much room for the Lobbyists for Corporations to try to get exclusions. By taxing everything, you reduce what a Politician can say Im going to tax only this group over here but not those people over there. It makes it so we have more control over the people that represent us. And this is exactly what Most Politicians are scared of. No more easy elections, no more control through Class Warfare. No more looking like the good guy by increasing tax on these people to influence the decisions of others. Now Politicians have to do real work to keep their jobs.
The Fairtax is revenue Neutral, that means, it collect no more or no less than the system currently does, what it does do however, is makes it visible. You will know exactly what you are sending to the Government every time you buy something. That might make you a little bit wearier when you spend money, or really, what the Government is doing with your money. You earned that money; you want to make sure that they invest it well. Right now, you cant begin to tell what you paid in taxes because of all the embedded taxes out there.
This Fairtax would Tax Everything. It makes it fair. Thats why the Fair part is capitalized. People say that you would hurt the poor by taxing everything. Wrong, by taxing everything equally you make it better for you in the long run. (Remember, no Lobbyists for Huge Corporations trying to skate by the Tax Code) We would have what is called a Prebate. This Prebate is a refund of all the taxes you what pay on taxes for Necessities up to the Poverty Level. That means, the Poor will be untaxed! And everyone gets this. All the money you would spend for Food, and Doctor Visits, etc, you get the Taxes back. That means its about $196 a month for one person. The more people that you have as a dependant, the more Prebate you get. And this goes up with inflation as the Statistics come from the Department of Labor. They figure up every year what you pay in taxes for necessities, since this tax is based on a percentage. If inflation goes up, so does the Prebate.
1. One concern about the Fairtax is how it is measured. It is a 23% tax at the Retail level. It is an Inclusive Tax. That means if price tag says $1.00 you pay $1.00. $0.77 goes to the Retailer; $.023 goes to the Federal Government. Some people who dont really understand the system. If was a Tax Exclusive system, like with most State Sales Taxes, it would be $1.00 on the Price tag and $.30 extra added on at the end of the sale. Thats why you would hear from time to time 30% or 23%. It all depends how you look at it.
2. People say it would hurt Home Buyers because the Home Mortgage Tax Deduction is eliminated. But, with no Income Tax to deduct anything from, that argument holds no water.
3. This will hurt the Poor, and make the Rich, richer. The Poor people would be untaxed. That means, anybody making at or below the Poverty level, DO NOT PAY TAXES. This is due to the Prebate. They would get all the money that they would send in Taxes on Food and Necessities back. The Rich have the money to by more things; they are going to pay more in taxes. The Fairtax also spreads the taxes across every person that buys anything in this country. That means, illegal aliens, drug dealers, pimps, prostitutes, tourists, you, me, the rich, anybody who buys anything, pays taxes, not just the Legal workers in the United States.
I may of missed something, but ask anything. I will do my best to answer you.
Thank you for reading
Why the fair tax, why now?
Posted by gillis7 (Profile)
Tuesday, December 28th at 9:11PM EST
Why the FairTax, Why Now?
Why the fair tax?- The Fair Tax(HR 2525) is a national retail sales tax that replaces the gigantic and cumbersome and punitive income tax that started in America as a result of the Federal reserve legislation in 1913. It proposes to be 23% as a tax on RETAIL sales of all goods in America. When you get a paycheck under the present income tax the government demands that you fill out cumbersome and complex forms (in detail) to describe much of your private life( and ALL of your financial life) and do so accurately under the penalty of fines and imprisonment that the IRS would gladly facilitate. That paycheck then becomes a reduced amount based on what size it is or what kind of citizen you are based on other checks or cash you may have earned (tax brackets). The fair tax proposes that you keep the entire check when you earn it and fill out no forms telling the government about your private life. You pay as you buy instead.
What are the advantages of that?
Equal Protection Under The Law- The super wealthy don’t get more votes when they go to the polls because they make more (and have more that needs protecting). Bill Gates doesn’t get five votes verses a millionaire’s three verses your one. That wouldn’t be right. One CIitizen, One Vote. Equal protection under the law. If wealthy citizens are not entitled to more votes because they make more , then why should they be forced to pay more in taxes for the same reason? The first response many give to this question is that they are more ABLE to afford higher rates. That concept was described by Karl Marx in the communist manifesto : “from each according to his ability to each according to his needs”. Under examination , it is not consistent with the simple distilled American constitutional principle :”Equal Protection Under the Law”. Regardless of any wealth envy a citizen may have, no one thinks that the wealthy deserve special privileges in our system of government , and neither should they suffer special burdens not levied on all other citizens.
Reducing the strength of powerful lobbyists- How many times have we heard that the lobbyists in Washington have too much power and command the direction of too much legislation? What if there was one law that could alleviate much of that problem? The fair tax is that law. Look at how many lobbyists are in Washington for the sole purpose of gaining tax exemptions for this or that industry or special interest? With no complex set of income tax exemptions to trudge through and hide in new legislation, an entire branch of the lobby industry …..goes away.
Black Market and foreign contribution-When a tourist comes from Germany or Australia and spends Ten thousand dollars in our economy while seeing our country, none of that money goes toward our social security or Medicare system. When a drug dealer pays for a yacht in cash or buys a home, none of that money is taxed through our income tax system . Many illegal Aliens work for cash and do not report their earnings . What if that didn’t matter? The fair tax alleviates that missing revenue and requires none of the actors to fill out forms. When anyone buys an item on the retail level, the tax is applied by the business selling the item. By placing the collection burden on the business owner (who already has that burden in many states) it eliminates the individual as the declaration instrument for the government. And as the owner of a business will stick around for the next round of customers it is incumbent upon him/her to retain public trust in the community and act within the constructs of the system or risk failing. It is already a part of doing business
Punitive, intrusive, and costly income tax filing- Why should it be the government’s business what property you have( beyond it being the registrar of land purchases and ownership)? Why should you have to risk your fortune and your freedom every time you fill out a (mandatory) form that requires a decade of college courses to understand ? Why then, should you be forced (out of necessity) to pay others , accountants and bookkeepers to do it for you because you have not studied that subject while you were preparing yourself to do something else in life? The fair tax relieves that burden and eliminates that risk for the individual citizen.
Reducing the power of the federal government to sneak in taxes under a complex code-The federal government can adjust and tweak the current income tax system and slip in all kinds of penalties and exemptions. And those who can navigate its complexity are capable of finding just the right exemption rules to reduce their burden and increase their competitive advantage. The fair tax levels the playing field and keeps the congress from making” hidden” adjustments to favor this or that lobby. With the fair tax set at 23% retail sales tax, the ability for congress to adjust that one number is out in the open and they would face a much higher scrutiny by “we the people” every time they even considered tweaking that ONE NUMBER.
Forcing the Government to adjust the budget in the spending column instead of the revenue column- The above example shows that with more scrutiny and less ability to grow the bloated government coffers every time they want to add a new pork bill, the congress would be forced (under the fair tax) to adjust their budget just like average citizens do at home: cut spending.
ThePre-bate equalizes the poverty stricken without eliminating taxes on the bottom tier- Under the proposed fair tax system , the pre-bate is a check written to every household (all of them , regardless of income level) to cover the taxes that will be paid on the basic necessities of life up to the poverty level. This removes the very poor from the taxes that are collected when buying their milk, clothing, paying rent, etc. Right now, under the Income tax almost 40% of our citizens have no tax liability at all. This concept also goes back to : Equal Protection Under the Law.
Tax cheating- While no system eliminates tax cheating altogether (criminals will always find a way), it reduces their chances of succeeding by removing the gigantic and complex tax code now on the books and removes the IRS from the expensive burden of keeping up with the income of each and every citizen in America (and now abroad as the Obama administration puts pressure on foreign banks to disclose information on their customers). There will be some ways to attempt to exempt oneself from the fair tax system , but compared to the cheating in the income tax the difference will be geometrically apparent..
Making America a tax haven- With the manufacturing base moving overseas, America has experienced a loss of industry for a variety of reasons, one of which is the punitive regulations put on manufacturers by our gigantic tax code. Under the fair tax, our country stands to become a tax haven for business around the world . Businesses operating in countries with a VAT (value added tax , that taxes at every level of sale , including wholesale) or an income tax would flock to America to get out from under that burden (just as they have run from America in the past to escape the income tax here).
A winning Mission Statement for a conservative political malaise- The fair tax can become a rallying point for conservatives in America to return our great nation to the constitutional republic proposed by the founders (who forbade the income tax in article 1 section 9 of the original constitution). And it can become an attractive draw for moderates and “middle-of- the –roaders” now disaffected by the Marxist attempts of the extreme Liberal shift in American politics in the past two decades.
No system of taxation is perfect, but when compared to the broken and punitive system we have now, the fair tax stands far and away above , and promises to alleviate a multitude of ills now festering in the swamp that Washington and the federal reserve have created to increase their power and assist their comrades at the expense of their fellow citizens .
Patrick Alan Pittman
I was initially skeptical of the pre-bate, but I think it hold's tremendous potential in policy - especially in regards to immigration. The FairTax would instantly make illegal immigrants pay an above-citizen percentage of taxes due to their consumption being taxed while not being eligible for the prebate.
This would be the impact of just the prebate...
The number of households for 2007 is estimated to be 113 million. Assuming 100 percent participation, the cost of the prebate is estimated to be $489 billion for 2007 (assuming that all legally resident households participate). This amount is about half of the amount of tax expenditures (standard deductions, personal exemptions, Earned Income Tax Credit, mortgage interest and charitable deductions, and various other tax preferences) doled out under the current federal income tax system that are repealed when the FairTax is enacted. For 2006, the total of all of these tax breaks exceeded $945 billion (estimate by the congressional Joint Committee on Taxation.
The Point of the Prebate is to insure that no citizen "pay a tithe" to the Federal Government just to be a living, breathing person. You would not pay taxes until AFTER you can fulfill your obligations to provide the Necessities of Life to yourself and your family.
It ensures that no one pays taxes at all until they spend over the Poverty Level.
Sounds good to me....you would think that "party for the poor people" would love that...
Not to mention that the Cost of just complying with our Current Tax Code drains our economy of nearly $350 Billion a year. That just to Pay our taxes.
Exactly.....*sighs* I just don't get it...
Those that do understand the impact this would have to uplift the Poor. Also, those seeking higher education would be able to do so Tax Free due to the fact that under the FairTax, Education is considered an investment and investments have absolutely no taxes.
Oh no. This is just what the Poltical forum needs...
Recently, the following petition was submitted to the White House on the Petitions.Whitehouse.gov website:
This was the White House response:
Well, of course, why just raise their taxes by $5,000 when you can raise it by $6,000, of course, how stupid of us.
Fair Tax won't happen unless Gary Johnson wins in 2016 under the LP or any 3rd party run wins it. The two party system, lol, couldn't care less about us.
It wouldn't matter if he won....all he would get to do is sign it if it got through the House and Senate, which it wouldn't....
You are pushing for him in the wrong place, you need to be pushing him towards the Senate...
All he would have to do is go on tv and say 'We The People' voted for a 3rd party into office, 'We The People' demand a better country. I urge you to do what is best for the country and pass the Fair Tax.
And IF that didn't work, then well, that would make Democrats and Republicans look bad. Just like spoil brats who don't want to share with the new kid. Oh wait, that IS what the two party system is with their Commission on Presidential Debates.
I'd love to see Jon Huntsman(only man who supported NDAA 2012 I'll *consider* voting for) drop some of his and daddy's money on a 3rd party run. Be nice if he did so under the LP, just for the fact, the LP is the only 3rd party with the easiest path for 45+ state ballots and at a cheap cost. Last I checked, on the ballot for 30 states heading into 2016, just need to petition the rest. American Elect spent around 30 million getting on the ballot in 30 states, then went *thud*. But I don't expect Huntsman to run under the LP or do a Indie run. He doesn't fit the LP really and I don't think wants to drop 40-50 million on tv ads...cause it's gonna be around that amount beginning in May/June to put *pressure* on polling firms to include you and to create buzz to get into the debates. Need 15% in 5 polls...that is crazy. I'm really only confident that 100 million on tv, radio, internet ads with amount going towards ballot access will do it. Gary Johnson says if he had 50 million he...I thin eh said he would had won. He would had gotten at least 5% of the vote and around 20 million in matching funds for the LP. The LP is a minor party, not a 3rd party, so the 90 million in funds does not happen. Sucks, I know.
He isn't running for the Senate, he has said he will be in the Libertarian Party for life. Although he could probably have a decent chance of winning the a Senate spot in New Mexico as a Libertarian. The only thing he has announced is he is going on a university tour sometime in 2013, is back at his Our American Initiative, and...think that is it.
I know that...what I'm saying is, if he wants to help initiate some of the changes he wants....IMO, the Senate is the better place to do that.
Um, no....still wouldn't work.
Obama took a pot shot at the Republicans and got a fiscal cliff deal out of it, so I just figured...
He is one man...
And I don't even know if he knows what a Senator does. He didn't back in 94 when he ran for Governor, I know that much, via his awesome book.
When I think of Senators i think of Star Wars and the NHL team in Canada. How sad...then again, don't really care.
How do the poor people get their money back for "necessities"? Do they have to save all their receipts? Is there a government agency judging what is necessary and what is frivolous? Or are their purchases monitored by driver's license or ID?
You laugh but someone recently slid their driver's license instead of debit card by accident at work and the register asked me if I wanted to run it as payment.
You may laugh, but the conspiracy theorist in me said in thy head 'OMG, RFID tracking NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO'
Every Citizen/Green Card Holder with a SSN would get a Monthly reimbursement of the taxes they would pay called a "Prebate". This Prebate is determined by the Department of Health and Human Services. Essentially, they would figure out what the Cost of Living is, 23% (or whatever the FairTax percentage was) of that would be taxes, divide that 23% by 12 then at the beginning of every month receive that amount in the mail, or be direct deposited into their account.
Say it was you, your wife and a child, you would "round up" all of the SSN's, and all of the prebates would be sent into one account. It's up to you how you receive it.
You would only get this Prebate if you were had a valid SSN. This would alter the paradigm so that it would give incentive to anyone that would be here, or come here legally.
Every SSN holder would get this, regardless of income level. This would ensure that no individual would have to pay taxes on the necessities of life.
If you have any other questions, please let me know.