Do you accept the theory of evolution?

[Shemtov]

“Claim” being the operative word. Because of their antiquity, we have no way to adjudicate these claims and, therefore, it’s entirely correct to be skeptical. They could be anything from outright fabrications to exaggerations to honest misinterpretation. Hume’s adage holds sway here: “…no testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous, than the fact, which it endeavours to establish....” Did the Red Sea really part, or was this a fanciful description of crossing the shallows of the Reed Sea? Did the faithful at Fatima really see the Sun crash into the Earth, or were they afflicted by Sun-blindness and hallucination? As far as properly evaluating evidence goes, a mere claim is worthless.

Yes, it would be truly miraculous that somebody or some people were able to sell a new book to an entire people as an old one that was publicly given to 600,000 people with open miracles. A book that specifically says to "ask your father" about it- if anyone would have asked their fathers they would have been told that they never heard of it, therefore the authors must have been really really stupid if they put that in.

 

[Lighthouse]

Yes, it would be truly miraculous that somebody or some people were able to sell a new book to an entire people as an old one that was publicly given to 600,000 people with open miracles. A book that specifically says to "ask your father" about it- if anyone would have asked their fathers they would have been told that they never heard of it, therefore the authors must have been really really stupid if they put that in.

......what?

 

[Spider-Who?]

......what?

I think he's talking about the idea that the Gospels were in circulation in not only where Jesus did his miracles, but when there were still people alive who could have verified it's truth, or said "No, wait, that didn't happen."

 

[Shemtov]

I think he's talking about the idea that the Gospels were in circulation in not only where Jesus did his miracles, but when there were still people alive who could have verified it's truth, or said "No, wait, that didn't happen."

No, I'm talking about the theory that the Jewish Bible was compiled during the Babylonian exile, which doesn't make sense given that it itself claims it was written earlier..
Why would the compilers put that in there? People would question why they never heard of the book before.

 

[zanos]

I give up trying to make my point. Obviously, the PhD's on a superhero message board know all and cannot be reasoned with.
I never said that the bible is right or the bible is truth. I honestly think the bible is just a bunch of stories told by people who followed a man named Jehovah. If someone gets lifted up because of a passage they read in the bible good for them.
I just don't see the point in making fun of someone's belief in religion or their faith in God or Jesus. What is it hurting? If someone wants to believe that some greater existence created the universe, so be it.
I guess I'm not one of the cool kids that makes fun of someone for believing in a greater being that created the universe.
Everyone on here is talking about the narrow mindedness of the people who believe in creationism, but you're all to narrow minded to listen to their reasoning. You're just as bad those the religious zealots pushing it down throats that you can't see yourself pushing the theory of evolution down theirs. It's a pissing contest and everyone is pissing in the wind.

I accept the theory of evolution. I don't ram in down the creationists throat that I accept it. I don't see a point on ridiculing a creationist who wants to practice the word of God and believes that God created the universe.
I don't know if there is a God and I really don't care if there is a God.
I'll have more respect for someone who states their opinions and facts without being an ass than someone who insults the ones they are trying to convince.

So with that, I am done with the creation vs evolution BS. I'm on here to talk comics and movies.

You must be living in some fantasy land no one has ever heard of if you think someone else's religion doesn't affect you directly or indirectly.

I also don't believe you when you say you wouldn't ridicule someone's belief in god. If people suddenly started believing that Spongebob Square Pants was God you'd most definitely would make fun of them. At the very least you would think they were a bunch of loons. You're no more high minded than the next person.

 

[Spider-Who?]

No, I'm talking about the theory that the Jewish Bible was compiled during the Babylonian exile, which doesn't make sense given that it itself claims it was written earlier..
Why would the compilers put that in there? People would question why they never heard of the book before.

Ah. The Torah is a collection of books, which were written at different times, so perhaps that answers your question? (I'm not took knowledgable on the history of the Torah, to be honest). Here's a little recap I found, if it interests you: http://www.beingjewish.com/mesorah/ageoftorah.html

 

[Thundercrack85]

They really should stop using the word "theory". It confuses a lot people. I think. Perhaps many creationists are using it the wrong way intentionally.

 

[Lighthouse]

They really should stop using the word "theory". It confuses a lot people. I think. Perhaps many creationists are using it the wrong way intentionally.

Or schools can start really hammering home the difference between "theory" and "hypothesis".

 

[Odneyson]

Perhaps many creationists are using it the wrong way intentionally.

Many creationists? Where?

 

[Thundercrack85]

Many creationists? Where?

You've never heard them say "it's just a theory?"

Do I need to list names? Cause I can.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Or schools can start really hammering home the difference between "theory" and "hypothesis".

I doubt that most people in school can spell "hypothesis", but it's worth a try.

Quite honestly sometimes I'm amazed that most of this species is potty trained.

 

[superpower]

Yes he did. Kable24 was strawmanning all over the place with that post.

Hold up. Absolutely no offence is intended. But I keep seeing this
"Straw man" term tossed out, once to me and though I admit it was just I have read the same straw man arguments from the evolution side.

Admittedly I have not read much of this thread but from what I have read I saw the bible categorized with such things as unicorns, dragons, fairies, magic, Shakespeare, and the most well thought out one was about similarities to Greek mythology and how immoral it is.

Not one person mentions a cohesive plot among the sub plots.

No one mentions a story about
Deception and it effects (especially involving leadership)
Fear (please ask how if you think its just to control us)
Oppression
Freedom
Human nature (both good and bad)
Forgiveness
a pretty accurate metaphorical "end of times" that we seem to be perpetually a part of looking from today back through history
A book that predicts its own demise.


With just those things I believe a straw man call is deserving. You have at best taken out some things that oversimplify any scripture out there. Some more than other but a spades a spade.

Am I saying this is proof of God? No.

What I'm saying is that some people here have a very high standard of education, especially in the eye of todays education system, for your audience yet in your intellectual supremacy, no joke some of you are smart, you commit the same crime.

 

[Kable24]

You must be living in some fantasy land no one has ever heard of if you think someone else's religion doesn't affect you directly or indirectly.

I also don't believe you when you say you wouldn't ridicule someone's belief in god. If people suddenly started believing that Spongebob Square Pants was God you'd most definitely would make fun of them. At the very least you would think they were a bunch of loons. You're no more high minded than the next person.

I never said religion doesn't affect me directly or indirectly, but since you seem to know me and how I am in the real, please enlighten me on how religion affects me.
As for the making fun of someone for who they worship, I just don't care. I don't care about who worships what. If someone wants to worship Spongebob that's their choice. I still won't make fun of that person, no matter how corny it sounds to me. I will have my opinion on it, but I won't ridicule anyone for what the believe, even if I think it's wrong.

 

[DBryan]

Can we save the R word discussions for a different thread?

 

[Piper Maru]

You are all upsetting the Flying Spaghetti Monster! If you can't be respectful you'll be thrown into a pot of boiling water by Chef Boyardee! Repent you filthy heathens!

 

[Kable24]

Can we save the R word discussions for a different thread?

Absolutely. I didn't mean to get the thread off topic.

 

[childeroland]

Sorry it took so long to reply to this question. I got distracted by another discussion on this thread I have reposted the convo to bring everyone up to speed.









Let me ask you or anyone who wishes to answer a question:
The Bible claims to have been written around 1200 BCE or thereabouts (It doesn't really matter when). As I said before this explicitly stated in the Pentateuch ( I quoted Deut 31:24, but this is stated in a few other places.)What did the compilers of the Bible around 500 BCE say to explain why this book wasn't around before?

There is Another question that I wish to ask:
The Bible claims miracles took place before hundreds of thousands of people There is not one other sacred book that claims this. The Quran, the Tripitakas, and the Avesta all claimed to have been revealed in a personal vision. Why didn't another sacred book claim a mass-witnessed miracle? Remember, if the Bible could get away with it, so could of others. And they would have wanted to, as it would have attracted more followers.

This is in fact, all relevant to this thread, as this book from God is one of the primary disproofs of evolution, though of course there are many others, which I will post later.

Not to derail the thread too much, but the composition of the biblical texts are probably much more political than anything else, certainly no proof of divine involvement. Supposedly Hilkiah found a "Book of the Law"(identified by Rashi as Deuteronomy, though some scholars think it might have been what they call the legendary Deuteronomistic History) early in Josiah's temple renovation. Supposedly, the scroll passed from this Hilkiah to Josiah. Scholars generally believe this scroll was an early precursor of the Torah written by the priests to help centralize power under Josiah in Jerusalem. Though this is an early dating, since recently some theologians have claimed that most of the Torah and Deuteronomistic History was written several centuries later. Even the early dating posits a more political than theological cause, nothing divine.

As for "miracles," actually, the Haedong Kosung-jon of Korea claims mass-witnessed miracles similar to the Bible. So does Sufi literature, and the Honchō Hokke Reigenki of Japan. I don't know why relatively few texts claim mass-witnessed miracles, but it's not like that gives any veracity to the claims of the few who do. Where are the extra-biblical witness accounts at least attempting to document these "miracles"? You'd think if these miracles were truly mass-witnessed, it would have gotten back to someone during those times who was literate and who would attempt to attest to them, besides the composers of the "canonical" biblical texts.

 

[Bill]

Hold up. Absolutely no offence is intended. But I keep seeing this
"Straw man" term tossed out, once to me and though I admit it was just I have read the same straw man arguments from the evolution side.

Admittedly I have not read much of this thread but from what I have read I saw the bible categorized with such things as unicorns, dragons, fairies, magic, Shakespeare, and the most well thought out one was about similarities to Greek mythology and how immoral it is.

Not one person mentions a cohesive plot among the sub plots.

No one mentions a story about
Deception and it effects (especially involving leadership)
Fear (please ask how if you think its just to control us)
Oppression
Freedom
Human nature (both good and bad)
Forgiveness
a pretty accurate metaphorical "end of times" that we seem to be perpetually a part of looking from today back through history
A book that predicts its own demise.


With just those things I believe a straw man call is deserving. You have at best taken out some things that oversimplify any scripture out there. Some more than other but a spades a spade.

Am I saying this is proof of God? No.

What I'm saying is that some people here have a very high standard of education, especially in the eye of todays education system, for your audience yet in your intellectual supremacy, no joke some of you are smart, you commit the same crime.

A straw man is restating an argument or idea incorrectly, and then tearing down the erroneous version of the argument or idea, but never really addressing the original argument or idea. For example, you restated theory as something that was not yet a fact and can't be tested or proven, and argued from that point. Theory is never meant to be a fact, it is testable, and is never proven.

In any other sense, you give a Bible to someone who has never heard of Christianity, they're going to think it's myth or fairy tale. You have talking snakes, donkeys, people living in whales, worldwide floods, and magic and mysticism.

This does have a degree of relevance here because this is where any idea of "controversy" grows from acceptance of Evolution. From Creationism to Intelligent Design, these ideas grow from Christianity and the Bible and a strict interpretation of it's scriptures.

It doesn't matter in a cosmic sense that someone lives and dies believing that the Earth is 6,000 years old and man lived with dinosaurs. There are people that still believe the Earth is flat and the Holocaust never happened. Who cares, right? The Universe will roll right on, the Earth will keep revolving and we will still evolve.

 

[Thundercrack85]

And yet whenever thousands of people see a UFO, they're nuts.

Show me a miracle on radar, and we'll talk.

Here's a case that is either a miracle, a UFO, strange solar phenomena, or... just a mass hallucination.

 

[Shemtov]

Not to derail the thread too much, but the composition of the biblical texts are probably much more political than anything else, certainly no proof of divine involvement. Supposedly Hilkiah found a "Book of the Law"(identified by Rashi as Deuteronomy, though some scholars think it might have been what they call the legendary Deuteronomistic History) early in Josiah's temple renovation. Supposedly, the scroll passed from this Hilkiah to Josiah. Scholars generally believe this scroll was an early precursor of the Torah written by the priests to help centralize power under Josiah in Jerusalem.

Three, problems with that theory:
1. Again, what did Josiah tell the people to explain where this ultra-important book had been? Remember it claims to have been written centuries earlier.
2. If the priests wrote it, why would they put in the fact that they would own no land?
3. If it was meant to centralize power in Jerusalem, why isn't the City mentioned in the Torah.

Where are the extra-biblical witness accounts at least attempting to document these "miracles"? .

The Ipuwer Papyrus dating from the end of the Middle Kingdom, was found in Egypt. It was taken to the Leiden Museum in Holland and interpreted by A.H. Gardiner in 1909. The complete papyrus can be found in the book Admonitions of an Egyptian from a heiratic papyrus in Leiden. The papyrus describes violent upheavals in Egypt, starvation, drought, escape of slaves (with the wealth of the Egyptians), and death throughout the land.
Here are some parallels to the Bible:
IPUWER PAPYRUS:
Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere. 2:10 The river is blood.
2:10 Men shrink from tasting - human beings, and thirst after water
3:10-13 That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin.
BIBLE- EXODUS
7:20 …all the waters of the river were turned to blood. 7:21 ...there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt …and the river stank.
7:24 And all the Egyptians dug around the river for water to drink; for they could not drink of the water of the river.
IPUWER PAPYRUS:
2:10 Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire. 10:3-6 Lower Egypt weeps... The entire palace is without its revenues. To it belong [by right] wheat and barley, geese and fish
6:3 Forsooth, grain has perished on every side.
5:12 Forsooth, that has perished which was yesterday seen. The land is left over to its weariness like the cutting of flax.
BIBLE- EXODUS
9:23-24 ...and the fire ran along the ground... there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous. 9:25 ...and the hail smote every herb of the field, and broke every tree of the field.
9:31-32 ...and the flax and the barley was smitten; for the barley was in season, and flax was ripe.
But the wheat and the rye were not smitten; for they were not grown up.
10:15 ...there remained no green things in the trees, or in the herbs of the fields, through all the land of Egypt.
IPUWER PAPYRUS:
5:5 All animals, their hearts weep. Cattle moan... 9:2-3 Behold, cattle are left to stray, and there is none to gather them together.
BIBLE- EXODUS
9:3 ...the hand of the Lord is upon thy cattle which is in the field... and there shall be a very grievous sickness. 9:19 ...gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field...
9:21 And he that did not fear the word of the Lord left his servants and cattle in the field.
IPUWER PAPYRUS:
9:11 The land is without light
BIBLE- EXODUS
10:22 And there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt.
IPUWER PAPYRUS:
6:12 Forsooth, the children of princes are cast out in the streets.
6:3 The prison is ruined.
2:13 He who places his brother in the ground is everywhere.
3:14 It is groaning throughout the land, mingled with lamentations
BIBLE- EXODUS
12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive that was in the prison. 12:30 ...there was not a house where there was not one dead.
12:30 ...there was a great cry in Egypt.
IPUWER PAPYRUS:
3:2 Gold and lapis lazuli, silver and malachite, carnelian and bronze... are fastened on the neck of female slaves.
BIBLE- EXODUS
12:35-36 ...and they requested from the Egyptians, silver and gold articles and clothing. And God made the Egyptians favour them and they granted their request. [The Israelites] thus drained Egypt of its wealth.

 

[Lighthouse]

.....I am so lost on the points being made.

 

[Thundercrack85]

It would be interesting to see how accepted evolution is on areligious countries.

 

[Shemtov]

.....I am so lost on the points being made.

What don't you understand?

 

[childeroland]

Most Egyptologists reject the parallels with Exodus and believe it is speaking about natural disasters and point out the conflicts between the biblical and papyrus accounts.

As far as I can tell, Josiah didn't explain, but many of the laws in the "Book of Laws" are far earlier than Josiah's text itself. It's possible the text also contained a version of the Exodus story, but I don't think scholars are sure about the exact content of the book or scroll. What did it claim, exactly, and can we assume the account of Josiah's priest finding the scroll (in II Kings, was it?) wasn't later altered to retroactively fit a growing national myth, especially during the Persian period? I should also point out that the final form of the Torah and Deuteronomistic history may not have started to emerge until the Persian period.

As far as the priests not owning any land, that could have been to distinguish themselves from the entitled existence of the Egyptian priests or assure their popularity with the people--heck, it's not like they weren't compensated for their service to the temple. It might even have been some sort of political necessity. It's not like people wouldn't deny themselves in the pursuit of power, particularly if that power was centered around a person friendly to their cause. in any case, scholars point to evidence that Levites did hold property privately, though the tribe itself did not receive inheritances--it appears the restriction may have only applied to land in Israel.

two problems with that theory:
1. Again, what did Josiah tell the people to explain where this ultra-important book had been? Remember it claims to have been written centuries earlier.
2. If the priests wrote it, why would they put in the fact that they would own no land?


The Ipuwer Papyrus dating from the end of the Middle Kingdom, was found in Egypt. It was taken to the Leiden Museum in Holland and interpreted by A.H. Gardiner in 1909. The complete papyrus can be found in the book Admonitions of an Egyptian from a heiratic papyrus in Leiden. The papyrus describes violent upheavals in Egypt, starvation, drought, escape of slaves (with the wealth of the Egyptians), and death throughout the land.
Here are some parallels to the Bible:
IPUWER PAPYRUS:
Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere. 2:10 The river is blood.
2:10 Men shrink from tasting - human beings, and thirst after water
3:10-13 That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin.
BIBLE- EXODUS
7:20 …all the waters of the river were turned to blood. 7:21 ...there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt …and the river stank.
7:24 And all the Egyptians dug around the river for water to drink; for they could not drink of the water of the river.
IPUWER PAPYRUS:
2:10 Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire. 10:3-6 Lower Egypt weeps... The entire palace is without its revenues. To it belong [by right] wheat and barley, geese and fish
6:3 Forsooth, grain has perished on every side.
5:12 Forsooth, that has perished which was yesterday seen. The land is left over to its weariness like the cutting of flax.
BIBLE- EXODUS
9:23-24 ...and the fire ran along the ground... there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous. 9:25 ...and the hail smote every herb of the field, and broke every tree of the field.
9:31-32 ...and the flax and the barley was smitten; for the barley was in season, and flax was ripe.
But the wheat and the rye were not smitten; for they were not grown up.
10:15 ...there remained no green things in the trees, or in the herbs of the fields, through all the land of Egypt.
IPUWER PAPYRUS:
5:5 All animals, their hearts weep. Cattle moan... 9:2-3 Behold, cattle are left to stray, and there is none to gather them together.
BIBLE- EXODUS
9:3 ...the hand of the Lord is upon thy cattle which is in the field... and there shall be a very grievous sickness. 9:19 ...gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field...
9:21 And he that did not fear the word of the Lord left his servants and cattle in the field.
IPUWER PAPYRUS:
9:11 The land is without light
BIBLE- EXODUS
10:22 And there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt.
IPUWER PAPYRUS:
6:12 Forsooth, the children of princes are cast out in the streets.
6:3 The prison is ruined.
2:13 He who places his brother in the ground is everywhere.
3:14 It is groaning throughout the land, mingled with lamentations
BIBLE- EXODUS
12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive that was in the prison. 12:30 ...there was not a house where there was not one dead.
12:30 ...there was a great cry in Egypt.
IPUWER PAPYRUS:
3:2 Gold and lapis lazuli, silver and malachite, carnelian and bronze... are fastened on the neck of female slaves.
BIBLE- EXODUS
12:35-36 ...and they requested from the Egyptians, silver and gold articles and clothing. And God made the Egyptians favour them and they granted their request. [The Israelites] thus drained Egypt of its wealth.

 

[superpower]

A straw man is restating an argument or idea incorrectly, and then tearing down the erroneous version of the argument or idea, but never really addressing the original argument or idea. For example, you restated theory as something that was not yet a fact and can't be tested or proven, and argued from that point. Theory is never meant to be a fact, it is testable, and is never proven.

In any other sense, you give a Bible to someone who has never heard of Christianity, they're going to think it's myth or fairy tale. You have talking snakes, donkeys, people living in whales, worldwide floods, and magic and mysticism.

This does have a degree of relevance here because this is where any idea of "controversy" grows from acceptance of Evolution. From Creationism to Intelligent Design, these ideas grow from Christianity and the Bible and a strict interpretation of it's scriptures.

It doesn't matter in a cosmic sense that someone lives and dies believing that the Earth is 6,000 years old and man lived with dinosaurs. There are people that still believe the Earth is flat and the Holocaust never happened. Who cares, right? The Universe will roll right on, the Earth will keep revolving and we will still evolve.

Great reply. Thanks.

I know why I was in the wrong. I called it just, like justice was served. By calling the bible a fairy tale someone would be incorrectly restating the idea's and information in it. A fairy tale can be dismissed far easier than the bible viewed as a whole picture.

Giving the bible to a lay person for an opinion is like giving a lay person a diagram of dna and ask them what they think. We may not live in a time to call it something so silly as a dragon but you could probably look forward to a couple of "nice art work".

Yeah, strict interpretation, I think its better called hypocrisy. But
can you name anything that's not corrupt? Can you name me anything, hope I thought this through, that can't be used for good and bad? It comes with the territory. Only difference between good and bad is perspective.

Your last statement... Pretty true. Gods not comeing down but we aren't exactly evolving our higher brain function fast enough either.