BvS Do you think Batman is taking the heat away from Superman?

The Superman/Batman movies box performance is what reallycounts

Yes! People are missing the criticality of WF for JL and for Superman.

A successful WF is the only way fans get JL or anther Superman film.

If WF underperforms its back to Batman solo films for the foreseeable future.
 
Cavil was fine but like Routh, they simply didn't give him any dialogue to work with.

Unfortunately for Superman fans, this new movie is not going to be a MOS sequel they hoped for.
 
Good points. The underperforming thing is reported more and more now on the likes of Variety so I think, yes, MOS underperformed expectations. This will likely be further confirmed when BOM and other film sites do their summer film results analysis.

Maybe WB wasn't really expecting a billion plusas Robinov says, but it looks like they could have been expecting 800 million.

Batman is safe as you say. No matter what WHF does, Batman is getting his trilogy with Affleck and, if WB has its way, he'll do 4 or 5 Bat films.

Batman is in a league of its own in that its a permanent franchise. They will be making Bat flicks 30, 40 and more years from now. As they will be making Bond, Star Wars and Spiderman films too.

But Superman is not in that category and neither is JL right now.

WF is critical to JL getting launched and to WB doing another stand-alone Superman.

So yes, it will be interesting to see how it unfolds. If WF does huge then JL follows shortly. If WF does huge and Superman audience tests well then yes, WB may try another stand-alone Supes after JL sometime.


I disagree with this. superman is easy to make. they just want to make him darker and grittier, but that's not needed. giving us the same crap over and over is unnecessary. i think everyone is tired of zod, lex and villains who arent in the comics. if the animated series can do it and make it somewhat reasonable and "realistic" with it's comicbook-ness, it can be done in live action. avengers proves that even heroes that no one knows anything about can be a hit. everyone knows about the justice league characters.

Batman vs superman, or whatever it's called, will bring in a ton of money. it's batman and superman in a live action movie together!!!! snyder is good at making complete crap look good in a trailer, so it'll garner interest easily. it'll make enough money.
 
And I find it silly how people compare BB to MOS to justify their love for MOS. As if BB's situation was the same as MOS's.
Actually I compared Bales career boost after his iconic movie to Cavill's career boost after his dud movie.

Wasn't talking about the films performances at all. The point(again) was that Bale had a hit movie and he wasn't being talked about and handed roles left and right....Is that because begins was some sort of less than stellar film?
You know, like MOS is:huh:

I don't know about you, but I don't remember BB getting a massive marketing campaign, a boost from 3D ticket sales, and the "Let's mention that a popular director helped make this film" style promotion. Not to mention BB coming off of "Batman and Robin", one of most hated films of all time.
So we are talking about the films financial performances? I do recall a huge marketing push for Begins. It's not like that film had garbage promotion or something. It had a teaser a year out, it had a superbowl spot(mos didn't) and it had the standard 20 or so tv spots and 4 trailers.
Mos had a 3D boost and it ended up making a crap load more money for it...

All that negativity about B&R would go on to help BB's reception...
But we are talking about financial success here I suppose and yes it hurt it, but it's not like MOS was coming off of the avengers either. Pretty sure it was also coming off of a film that ended a franchise.
Continue making excuses for MOS all you wish. Reeve's career didn't exactly take off because typecasting was more prevalent in those days, not to mention that Reeve foolishly turned down some big roles. Even still, he was widely praised for his performance as Superman, which has more to do with being in a good movie than it does being "pretty much the first big modern cbm around". As mentioned before, its not as if Cavill's stock has risen since MOS. That's not his fault. He had a decent performance in a polarizing movie.
First you open with the suggestion that I can keep making excuses then you go on to do exactly what?
"Well this is why reeve's career"
:whatever:

Reeve was widely praised, Cavill is widely praised. However, to compare him to reeve now after 30 years of american cinema is kinda difficult. But then again, Reeve was supposedly the first man in a film made to make the audience believe a man can fly. Cavill was in about the 34th. Audiences had never seen superman in a live action production that big before reeve. Cavill..

And if you don't think Cavill's stock has risen you are deluding yourself. The matter of discussion was if MOS was better, would this thread have even been brought up.
I say of course it would. Ignoring the natural appeal of the new superhero on the block let alone the appeal of the new batman....there will simply always be haters who raise such questions.
 
I disagree with this. superman is easy to make. they just want to make him darker and grittier, but that's not needed. giving us the same crap over and over is unnecessary. i think everyone is tired of zod, lex and villains who arent in the comics. if the animated series can do it and make it somewhat reasonable and "realistic" with it's comicbook-ness, it can be done in live action. avengers proves that even heroes that no one knows anything about can be a hit. everyone knows about the justice league characters.

Batman vs superman, or whatever it's called, will bring in a ton of money. it's batman and superman in a live action movie together!!!! snyder is good at making complete crap look good in a trailer, so it'll garner interest easily. it'll make enough money.

If Superman was easy to make there would not be the big divide among fans over SR and MOS.

Snyder can make crap look good in a trailer but if the film is poorly done the crowds will disappear as they did with MOS after the first weekend.
 
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What I mean is, do you think with the news of Batman and the obvious success of his franchise, do you think this is taking away the excitement for Superman and his cast of characters?

I mean I was all excited to see another villain introduced, preferably one we haven't seen yet and maybe explore a new Superman storyline we haven't yet seen on film. I think with Batman in it it is now becoming, 'Oooh, gee who do you want to play Robin? Who do you want to play Alfred? Who do you want to play Commissioner Gordon? etc.' We might as well set it in Gotham City while we're at it. :whatever:

Who else agrees?

Another Batman sequel was never going to make as much as The Avengers 2, and neither was a MOS sequel. So they are using Batman to make it seem like a team-up film, even if Batman only has a cameo (similar to Scarlett Johansson in Iron Man 2). If it is a cameo like that (which it appears to be, as they are only casting the characters from Superman's universe), then I think there are going to be a lot of very disappointed Batman fans.
 
I knew someone would come in acting like SR was as damaging as B&R.

SR was merely forgettable. B&R is memorably terrible. Only Superman fans act like those movies are on the same level.
that is worse than just being a bad film

superman returns gave superman the label of a boring character with no personality and too powerful moniker

i'd rather watch dare devil than green lantern for example

prefer a bad movie over a forgettable one
 
Another Batman sequel was never going to make as much as The Avengers 2, and neither was a MOS sequel. So they are using Batman to make it seem like a team-up film, even if Batman only has a cameo (similar to Scarlett Johansson in Iron Man 2). If it is a cameo like that (which it appears to be, as they are only casting the characters from Superman's universe), then I think there are going to be a lot of very disappointed Batman fans.

But we know Batman will be getting sequels or solos after WF ad JL. Ben has a multi-picture deal. Doesn't look like MOS will.

You are correct though that an MOS2 in 2015 would not have worked given Avengers and FF ad SW and the other flms that summer.
 
But we know Batman will be getting sequels or solos after WF ad JL. Ben has a multi-picture deal. Doesn't look like MOS will.

You are correct though that an MOS2 in 2015 would not have worked given Avengers and FF ad SW and the other flms that summer.

You're not going to introduce Batman IN a Superman movie, team-up alongside a character that the universe STARTED in his own film, have a solo-Bat franchise and NOT have a solo Superman film thereafter. No matter how bad you hate Superman, he's equally as important as Affleck's Batman in WF.

Mark my words: Superman will ATLEAST have 2 more solo movies after WF/JL. Mark it.
 
Superman relegated to Batman's *****? Yeah, I think that's a possibility. Love or hate Affleck the truth is no other superhero character would have caused such a response from people. Batman is the biggest superhero on the planet, sorry Big Blue fans, he may be the granddaddy of them all, but Cavil could have been recast and barely a peep would circulated through the presses.
 
that is worse than just being a bad film

superman returns gave superman the label of a boring character with no personality and too powerful moniker

i'd rather watch dare devil than green lantern for example

prefer a bad movie over a forgettable one

Too powerful? That'd be the time-reverser Donner version and the old times comic Superman. If anything SR made Superman uneasy with his condition of being the only super-powered man on earth and brooding about it. Which MOS took and expanded.
 
I think after Batman/Superman, where the differences of the characters are going to be explored in the film (what's the point in having them both there if they're going to be exactly the same) I think the next Superman solo film would work really well if it was Superman VS The Elite, since that story explores Superman's character and what he's willing to do/not do.
 
Too powerful? That'd be the time-reverser Donner version and the old times comic Superman. If anything SR made Superman uneasy with his condition of being the only super-powered man on earth and brooding about it. Which MOS took and expanded.

Is that what he was brooding about in Returns?
It wasn't too clear.
 
I think after Batman/Superman, where the differences of the characters are going to be explored in the film (what's the point in having them both there if they're going to be exactly the same) I think the next Superman solo film would work really well if it was Superman VS The Elite, since that story explores Superman's character and what he's willing to do/not do.

Superman vs The Elite - now that would make for a great film adaption.
 
Superman relegated to Batman's *****? Yeah, I think that's a possibility. Love or hate Affleck the truth is no other superhero character would have caused such a response from people. Batman is the biggest superhero on the planet, sorry Big Blue fans, he may be the granddaddy of them all, but Cavil could have been recast and barely a peep would circulated through the presses.

Don't think superman fans would argue that superman is the biggest "right now"
Some might argue that Ironman or Spiderman is..."right now", just as some might argue that superman was the biggest in the 80's coming off the donner films.

Batman wasn't the biggest when bale was cast, but coming off that trilogy I'd argue he is at the present. Who knows where things will be in a few years. I do think a more modern characterization has a better shot at making superman "big" again, now that they have let go of all that antiquity baggage of yesteryear that was clearly keeping the audience at a distance.
Perhaps like tdk trilogy, it will give the character a new life out of the ruins. Seems to be working so far.
 
Is that what he was brooding about in Returns?
It wasn't too clear.

The feeling of loneliness is all over SR. That's why he feels that he had to go the remains of Krypton, that's why he takes Lois to fly and show her that whereas she can't hear a thing, he can listen everybody asking for a savior, the shot of him over the earth, showing us Superman as a lonely figure above humanity. That's why Jason becomes such a sign of hope for him (he's not alone anymore). I know it wasn't spoonfed like superhero movies (I'm looking at you, Goyer) do, but come on.
 
Wasn't talking about the films performances at all. The point(again) was that Bale had a hit movie and he wasn't being talked about and handed roles left and right....Is that because begins was some sort of less than stellar film?
You know, like MOS is:huh:

Bale wasn't being talked about that much because Batman Begins wasn't exactly a smash hit, for reasons I mentioned before. What saved it was its legs and DVD sales. People eventually realized BB was good movie.

So we are talking about the films financial performances? I do recall a huge marketing push for Begins. It's not like that film had garbage promotion or something. It had a teaser a year out, it had a superbowl spot(mos didn't) and it had the standard 20 or so tv spots and 4 trailers.
Mos had a 3D boost and it ended up making a crap load more money for it...

BB certainly did not have the same level of promo and hype behind it as MOS did. People were actually very excited for MOS, especially after that 3rd trailer. It was not the same for Begins.

All that negativity about B&R would go on to help BB's reception...
But we are talking about financial success here I suppose and yes it hurt it, but it's not like MOS was coming off of the avengers either. Pretty sure it was also coming off of a film that ended a franchise.

As if MOS was coming off one of the most reviled movies of all time. SR didn't help MOS, but it sure as hell didn't hurt it as much as Superman fans would like to believe. Didn't MOS break records for June BO?

First you open with the suggestion that I can keep making excuses then you go on to do exactly what?
"Well this is why reeve's career"
:whatever:

Except those aren't excuses. It isn't like today where RDJ can play Iron Man and still be considered as a "dramatic" actor. When you played a superhero, the risk of typecasting was much higher. And like I said, Reeve also foolishly turned down roles in movies that would become hits.

Reeve was widely praised, Cavill is widely praised. However, to compare him to reeve now after 30 years of american cinema is kinda difficult. But then again, Reeve was supposedly the first man in a film made to make the audience believe a man can fly. Cavill was in about the 34th. Audiences had never seen superman in a live action production that big before reeve. Cavill..

Christopher Reeve had to follow George Reeves, who was a hugely popular Superman that defined the role for a generation. Christopher Reeve redefined Superman not just for comic fans, but for the GA as well. Cavill didn't come close to doing that in MOS, even if some fans like him more than Reeve. And it has nothing to do with being the first to play the role in some big budget film. If that were actually the case, Daniel Craig wouldn't get the level of praise he does as James Bond.

And if you don't think Cavill's stock has risen you are deluding yourself. The matter of discussion was if MOS was better, would this thread have even been brought up.
I say of course it would. Ignoring the natural appeal of the new superhero on the block let alone the appeal of the new batman....there will simply always be haters who raise such questions.

I disagree, but it is what it is.
 
Bale wasn't being talked about that much because Batman Begins wasn't exactly a smash hit, for reasons I mentioned before. What saved it was its legs and DVD sales. People eventually realized BB was good movie.
You opened with "if mos was a better movie" and here we are with if Begins was a bigger movie.
Christolph Waltz didn't need a half a billion dollar movie to become as house hold as he is, and Bale didn't need that either. He just needed a great movie..by your logic anyways. Bale became house hold after the second film(with the big cameo player) and a few other films during that time.

My logic is that Cavill is in bales position, it's not easy to come from nowhere and become a house hold with just one solid genre picture. Often times, it takes at least two. I personally just don't think people asking why the new high profile batman casting taking away from superman, has all that much to do with how little you liked mos. I would argue the same exact thing would happen if Begins was a hit, than they cast Ben Affleck as the new superman(coming off a hit superman trilogy) in the begins sequel. I would argue that if this same thing happened in TDK or TDKR, which if you look a the casting process during those films, is clearly evident.

It also has a bit to do with batman vs superman popularity on a whole...

BB certainly did not have the same level of promo and hype behind it as MOS did. People were actually very excited for MOS, especially after that 3rd trailer. It was not the same for Begins.
Pretty sure people were excited for the 3rd Begins trailer, don't remember anyone suggesting it looked stupid. Though I gotta admit Snyder does have some great photography and a knack for visual movement, one talented fellow there.

As if MOS was coming off one of the most reviled movies of all time. SR didn't help MOS, but it sure as hell didn't hurt it as much as Superman fans would like to believe. Didn't MOS break records for June BO?
A testament to the brands appeal and MOS' quality evidently enough.
And what's more, Superman big grand return to the screen for the first time in 30 years would have been a much bigger event had it not already happened to the sound of a whimper. Returns hurt the film in more ways than one.

Except those aren't excuses. It isn't like today where RDJ can play Iron Man and still be considered as a "dramatic" actor. When you played a superhero, the risk of typecasting was much higher. And like I said, Reeve also foolishly turned down roles in movies that would become hits.
Technically that's an excuse. Though I would agree that type casting has often been a huge issue with superman. Ironically enough.

Christopher Reeve had to follow George Reeves, who was a hugely popular Superman that defined the role for a generation. Christopher Reeve redefined Superman not just for comic fans, but for the GA as well. Cavill didn't come close to doing that in MOS, even if some fans like him more than Reeve. And it has nothing to do with being the first to play the role in some big budget film. If that were actually the case, Daniel Craig wouldn't get the level of praise he does as James Bond.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't George a TV actor? But sure, I assume Chris faced many a mal content but he definitely won over that audience with his big personality and character defining clark kent vs superman persona.

MoS was admittedly a far more subdued character piece that never went into the bigger character tropes of the property but rather set them up. It also didn't feature a fully formed superman that had been schooled for years by jor el to be then placed into a black and white world of good vs evil. If that's what you mean by if "mos had been better" than I guess.
However I think mos represents something different and in the end and like the tdk trilogy, will be remembered as a whole.

I don't think anyone would be passionately advocating for bales return had there only been Begins and nothing else(even if it made MoS money).
 
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What I mean is, do you think with the news of Batman and the obvious success of his franchise, do you think this is taking away the excitement for Superman and his cast of characters?

I mean I was all excited to see another villain introduced, preferably one we haven't seen yet and maybe explore a new Superman storyline we haven't yet seen on film. I think with Batman in it it is now becoming, 'Oooh, gee who do you want to play Robin? Who do you want to play Alfred? Who do you want to play Commissioner Gordon? etc.' We might as well set it in Gotham City while we're at it. :whatever:

Who else agrees?

These boards are definitely Batman-centric but I think a lot of that is because there are more if's with him at this point seeing as MOS is established.
 
These boards are definitely Batman-centric but I think a lot of that is because there are more if's with him at this point seeing as MOS is established.

^Ding, ding, ding.
 
Right now I think it's to early in the game to justify if batmans stealing Superman's thunder. This film isn't coming out another two years, so early in production to know what's going on, even the avengers sequel really has no information other then three new characters. Personally while super excited to see Batman and Superman I'm really disappointed that were not getting another solo superman movie for a while. I personally loved man of steel ( I'm a bigger Marvel fan btw) I'm surprised so many people didn't like it. I though it was Superman's verison of Nolan batman which I loved to.
I do feel however one can argue batmans taking the spotlight right now just because of how much of curveball the announcements been. I didn't see it coming I know they were trying to make a bigger universe like Marvel but thought it was a long way out. Also being that an actor has been fasted for the dark knight. I think over time spotlight will flip floppy between the two heros as more information is released. In a couple months who knows it could all be about Superman. I do hope as soon as production starts we get picture of batman and superman together I'm really excited to see that and the new look etc. 2015 is gonna be good movie year , even 2014 is exciting me
 
that is worse than just being a bad film

superman returns gave superman the label of a boring character with no personality and too powerful moniker

i'd rather watch dare devil than green lantern for example

prefer a bad movie over a forgettable one

I think people just do not want to give any credit to SR, it's fine if you don't like the movie or think that it was boring.

Many people I know got interested in Superman after watching SR, before that they were put off by campy Chris Reeve movies, mainly Superman 3 and Superman 4.

Now, I know that many fans were disappointed by SR, the movie divided the Superman fan base, but many people at that time (in 2006) acknowledged that it was lot better than the last two Superman movies. It got many favorable reviews, and was a moderate success.

Clearly that was not enough for fans and WB, they wanted it to be as successful as Raimi's Spider-Man movies (which had set the box office standard for Success at that time.)

The trouble was the perception of Superman in the minds of general audience was of Donner's Superman, even after release of SR, Donner's Superman movies still were deeply rooted in the minds of fans, general audience, critics. We all saw that happen when critics compared MOS to Donner's Superman The Movie this Summer.

Now that perception means different things for different people, to some it was equals to Superman being the big blue boy scout, to others it means a campy, non serious take on the character which GA no longer appreciates. If MOS has followed Superman 4 (Just assume for a second that SR never got made.) then it would have earned a lot less money (IMO.)

SR could not make a big impact on Box Office but in it's absence, I feel that MOS would have got a lot less success, why ? If nothing SR promoted brand awareness.
 
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What I mean is, do you think with the news of Batman and the obvious success of his franchise, do you think this is taking away the excitement for Superman and his cast of characters?

I mean I was all excited to see another villain introduced, preferably one we haven't seen yet and maybe explore a new Superman storyline we haven't yet seen on film. I think with Batman in it it is now becoming, 'Oooh, gee who do you want to play Robin? Who do you want to play Alfred? Who do you want to play Commissioner Gordon? etc.' We might as well set it in Gotham City while we're at it. :whatever:

Who else agrees?

No, you don't get it. Ben Affleck is a soft cotton candy ass actor and he is NOT an action hero. Whats going to hurt Superman is that when people see Ben Affleck dressed as Batman they are going to chuckle thats Ben Affleck beating up Superman. Nobody that i've spoken with is drooling to see these to square off.

In fact my wife laughed this morning and said did you see the news who's playing Batman. I ask her just don't mention it I didn't want to hear anymore about it. She just burst out laughing along with our baby sitter.
 
No, you don't get it. Ben Affleck is a soft cotton candy ass actor and he is NOT an action hero. Whats going to hurt Superman is that when people see Ben Affleck dressed as Batman they are going to chuckle thats Ben Affleck beating up Superman. Nobody that i've spoken with is drooling to see these to square off.

In fact my wife laughed this morning and said did you see the news who's playing Batman. I ask her just don't mention it I didn't want to hear anymore about it. She just burst out laughing along with our baby sitter.

Maybe we're going to see more of Batman The Detective rather than Batman The Action Hero?
 
The feeling of loneliness is all over SR. That's why he feels that he had to go the remains of Krypton, that's why he takes Lois to fly and show her that whereas she can't hear a thing, he can listen everybody asking for a savior, the shot of him over the earth, showing us Superman as a lonely figure above humanity. That's why Jason becomes such a sign of hope for him (he's not alone anymore). I know it wasn't spoonfed like superhero movies (I'm looking at you, Goyer) do, but come on.

more like it wasn't clear.
I thought him taking lois up and letting her in on his hearing problem was about proving the point that she was wrong when she proclaimed the world didn't need a savior "yet everyday I hear the world crying for one"
I thought this fell in line with the title "Superman Returns"
If there was any loneliness it was mixed in with the idea that he just missed his love interest...and was jealous.
Lastly, I thought it was about about re-hashing donners first flight date.

The shot of him in space said nothing of his loneliness. It's just a shot of him listening in space(like the writers said, he can here things clearer up there). I suppose he was alone up there so one can pull that conclusion.

You got a point with that last son of krypton having a son angle though. I wouldn't say it's wasn't spoon fed though. I also don't think Goyer would ever write in such as stupid an angle as giving superman a son(out of wedlock) in such a way. That would definitely make him deserving of the internet punching bag he seems to be.

Here's what I thought. Returns was about a superman brooding because the world has moved on and has seemingly turned on him. From his mother and her new boy friend to Lois and her new boy friend to the rest of the populace. That kinda goes in line with the title superman RETURNS..and now to explore what has come of such things.
I also chalked up his brooding to that. I suppose if you take that one step further it would amount to loneliness. sure.
 

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