Does anyone find the Hulk a bit overpowered?

[moraldeficiency]

Thor and Herc have both stalemated him and Thor has beaten him.

The thing about a Herc vs. Hulk battle is Hulk gets stronger as he gets madder and Herc just stays the same. Even if Herc's a better fighter I see Hulk winning more times than not for this reason.

In reality a hulk herc fight would end in three seconds with herc locking up hulk and that's it. Herc would be arguably the best submission type fighter on the planet, hulk doesn't even know how to throw a punch properly. It would be:

"Ok, hulk the more you struggle the more you'll be pulling you're own arms off"
"hulk mad, errr"
"Ok, hulk but it doesn't help here you can either rip your own arms off your body of calm the **** down"
"hulk doesn't like this"
"I'm sure hulk, now just calm down and I'll let you go"
"ok, hulk calming down....*turns into banner* Thanks, I don't know why no one's done that for me before"
"Fanboys, it's all because of fanboys"
"Ah, gotcha"
"now lets go get some wine, nerd"

 

[Mr. Green]

I don't think you need to criticize Bendis' writing EVER AGAIN after that.

 

[SenseiofCheese]

The fact of the matter is that it's gotten to the point where Hulk can beat pretty much everybody. He can withstand Black Bolt's voice. He beat Dr. Strange (Which, as has been noted, was complete horse****. But it's been written, and so it goes). And really, that whole 'madder equals stronger. There is no limit to the Hulk's anger' is complete crap.

I mean, so let's say that some writer introduces a character who actually IS stronger than Hulk. And it seems that Hulk is getting his ass handed to him, this new guy is just beating on him mercilessly. Then what? The Hulk just gets angrier and THEN wins? God himself could be beating on Hulk, but the moment our Almighty Lord called Hulk's momma fat, Hulk would get just angry enough to win?

His power levels have reached the point where they pretty much minimze the chances of a good story.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I don't think you need to criticize Bendis' writing EVER AGAIN after that.

I don't need to criticize Bendis' writing EVER AGAIN after that? I don't need to criticize Bendis' writing EVER AGAIN after that. I don't need to criticize Bendis' writing EVER AGAIN after that!

^nah, I'm still better. Notice the lack of saying the exact same ****ing thing every line? That's quality bendis wet dreams about.


And you know in that deep dark recess of your heart that I'm right about a submission style typle kicking the crap out of an untrained strong man. I mean Gracie is a smaller guy than I am so how the **** does that guy kick the crap out of damn near everyone he fights? You're body only bends so much, no matter how strong you are.

 

[Mr. Green]

Ooh, you got him there.

The fact of the matter is that it's gotten to the point where Hulk can beat pretty much everybody. He can withstand Black Bolt's voice. He beat Dr. Strange (Which, as has been noted, was complete horse****. But it's been written, and so it goes). And really, that whole 'madder equals stronger. There is no limit to the Hulk's anger' is complete crap.

He was only that strong once, during WWH, which is pretty justified IMO because he just got back from a world where his strength on Earth wasn't really that threatening AND he witnessed his wife and kid getting killed.

But I don't really see why you're so mad. His strength level resets after every transformation.

I mean, so let's say that some writer introduces a character who actually IS stronger than Hulk. And it seems that Hulk is getting his ass handed to him, this new guy is just beating on him mercilessly. Then what? The Hulk just gets angrier and THEN wins? God himself could be beating on Hulk, but the moment our Almighty Lord called Hulk's momma fat, Hulk would get just angry enough to win?

His power levels have reached the point where they pretty much minimze the chances of a good story.

Red Hulk beat the Hulk pretty soon into the first story arc post-WWH.

But the only thing that is minimizing the chances of a good Hulk story nowadays is Jeph Loeb.

 

[Mr. Green]

And you know in that deep dark recess of your heart that I'm right about a submission style typle kicking the crap out of an untrained strong man. I mean Gracie is a smaller guy than I am so how the **** does that guy kick the crap out of damn near everyone he fights? You're body only bends so much, no matter how strong you are.

Actually, a submission style beating the Hulk makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Hulk doesn't surrender because he's getting hurt. He gets mad.

The goal of a submission hold is to make the guy you're fighting submit. Hulk's never exactly been characterized as a guy who would say, "Ooh, that hurts. I tap out!"

 

[moraldeficiency]

Actually, a submission style beating the Hulk makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Hulk doesn't surrender because he's getting hurt. He gets mad.

The goal of a submission hold is to make the guy you're fighting submit. Hulk's never exactly been characterized as a guy who would say, "Ooh, that hurts. I tap out!"

No, you don't get it. Take away someone's leverage and leave them in a position where it's physically impossible for them to get out of the position without tearing their arms or legs off and they lose. One without the leverage you couldn't do it no matter how strong you are and two rip off both your own arms and you've pretty much lost. Now the pain might not get to you, but you can't move and can't break free. Constant pain that only diminishes when you cease to struggle would eventually make any person stop struggling and eventually calm down. Mainly cause you don't have a choice.

You're wrong about it hurting and that's why they give up. Those guys eat pain like mentos the freshmaker. It's the fact that they cannot physically get out of those positions combined with the fact that all they could accomplish is to do permenant damage to their joints and bones that makes them tap out. You can't bend your elbow or knee the other way no matter how strong you are, in fact all the muscle does is give you less a range of motion and flexability.

 

[SenseiofCheese]

But I don't really see why you're so mad. His strength level resets after every transformation.

That's exactly my point. The Hulk is never ever going to have to do anything other than get JUST mad enough to beat whoever he's fighting. He's never going to have to go get help. He's never going to have to diffuse the situtation. He's never going to have to find other ways to beat his enemies.

Enemy too strong? Get madder.

Still too strong? No problem, just get madder.

It's never going to be "Will the Hulk win?" or "How will the Hulk win?". It's just "WHEN will the Hulk win?" Is he going to be angry enough to win in four issues? Or six?

EDIT: But, as has been said, Planet Hulk is the exception to all of this.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I miss planet hulk.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

That's exactly my point. The Hulk is never ever going to have to do anything other than get JUST mad enough to beat whoever he's fighting. He's never going to have to go get help.

Incorrect. The current storyarc in his own book has him enlisting Namor, Surfer, and Dr. Strange for help.

In fact; he's been in PLENTY of situations in the past that required help from The Defenders...

 

[Lucien]

The fact of the matter is that it's gotten to the point where Hulk can beat pretty much everybody. He can withstand Black Bolt's voice. He beat Dr. Strange (Which, as has been noted, was complete horse****. But it's been written, and so it goes). And really, that whole 'madder equals stronger. There is no limit to the Hulk's anger' is complete crap.

I mean, so let's say that some writer introduces a character who actually IS stronger than Hulk. And it seems that Hulk is getting his ass handed to him, this new guy is just beating on him mercilessly. Then what? The Hulk just gets angrier and THEN wins? God himself could be beating on Hulk, but the moment our Almighty Lord called Hulk's momma fat, Hulk would get just angry enough to win?

His power levels have reached the point where they pretty much minimze the chances of a good story.

To be fair, he hasn't resisted the REAL Black Bolt's voice. He resisted a whisper from a Skrull. Said Skrull also used his voice on the Illuminati and it was nowhere near on par with Black Bolt's.

 

[SenseiofCheese]

Incorrect. The current storyarc in his own book has him enlisting Namor, Surfer, and Dr. Strange for help.

In my defense, the current storyarc is part of this Red Hulk nonsense, and I'm turning a blind eye to that mess.

In fact; he's been in PLENTY of situations in the past that required help from The Defenders...

Could you name some? Not when they went to him for help, but where he searched them out? Not calling you out or anything, I'm just curious as to what stories you're talking about.

To be fair, he hasn't resisted the REAL Black Bolt's voice. He resisted a whisper from a Skrull. Said Skrull also used his voice on the Illuminati and it was nowhere near on par with Black Bolt's.

Jesus, that was a Skrull? Goddamnit, I swear to....

But are we so sure that Pak knew that Black Bolt was a Skrull?

 

[Lucien]

Jesus, that was a Skrull? Goddamnit, I swear to....

But are we so sure that Pak knew that Black Bolt was a Skrull?

Who cares? Hulk didn't beat Black Bolt to a bloody pulp and i'm happier for it

 

[Spike_x1]

Indeed.

 

[random_havoc]

anger DOES have a maximum, it's when it breaks out into blind rage, which is exactly why Hulk's "savage" Hulk should have been his maximum strength limit.

Now, Ult Hulk on the other hand has a completely rational explanation for having no strength limit, because his strength isn't about anger, it's about his body automatically adapting to whatever stresses it's put under.

Either way, strength doesn't beat everything, and there are still plenty of earth-bound heroes who should logically be able to beat him 99% of the time, but who don't because some cheap pathetic excuse is written in (ie Him beating Strange in WWH).

I repeat the above since it was ignored.

 

[November Rain]

You do realise the Hulk also has a healing factor which is better then Wolverine's so he does recover from hits. His fighting skills were basically from instinct until the whole Planet Hulk run where he had to learn how to fight.

healing from an injury has nothing to do with getting knocked out, or suffocating, or passing out.

you know most people that get knocked out in a boxing match don't necessarily sustain that much external injury



here's a nice video on punching in general to explain

 

[Mr. Green]

Could you name some? Not when they went to him for help, but where he searched them out? Not calling you out or anything, I'm just curious as to what stories you're talking about.

It's been a while since I've read the Defenders but there are instances where he's went to the Defenders for help.

Also, remember that Hulk is also Banner and Banner has gone to others for help many times.

That's exactly my point. The Hulk is never ever going to have to do anything other than get JUST mad enough to beat whoever he's fighting. He's never going to have to go get help. He's never going to have to diffuse the situtation. He's never going to have to find other ways to beat his enemies.

Enemy too strong? Get madder.

Still too strong? No problem, just get madder.

It's never going to be "Will the Hulk win?" or "How will the Hulk win?". It's just "WHEN will the Hulk win?" Is he going to be angry enough to win in four issues? Or six?

EDIT: But, as has been said, Planet Hulk is the exception to all of this.

Planet Hulk isn't the exception, ANY good Hulk story is the exception. See Peter David's ENTIRE RUN on the Hulk. Even Bruce Jones' run wasn't anything like what you describe.

No, you don't get it. Take away someone's leverage and leave them in a position where it's physically impossible for them to get out of the position without tearing their arms or legs off and they lose. One without the leverage you couldn't do it no matter how strong you are and two rip off both your own arms and you've pretty much lost. Now the pain might not get to you, but you can't move and can't break free. Constant pain that only diminishes when you cease to struggle would eventually make any person stop struggling and eventually calm down. Mainly cause you don't have a choice.

You're wrong about it hurting and that's why they give up. Those guys eat pain like mentos the freshmaker. It's the fact that they cannot physically get out of those positions combined with the fact that all they could accomplish is to do permenant damage to their joints and bones that makes them tap out. You can't bend your elbow or knee the other way no matter how strong you are, in fact all the muscle does is give you less a range of motion and flexability.

Okay, I understand how that could apply to people who DON'T get stronger as they get madder. But Hulk WOULD get madder if he was in a hold that put him in a lot of pain and he would end up ripping their arms to get out of the hold and then he would kick the **** out of them.

 

[Mutagen]

This reminds me of the Randy Couture versus Brock Lesnar fight by the UFC. Couture is a grapple expert, who drains his opponents energy and stamina, Lesnar is a monster that just pounds and powers his way through. I recommend seeing it on youtube, it's no super hero fight, but it is a nice example of guile against strength.

 

[lowly marvelite]

a better fighter would put the hulk down before it really became an issue. It's not like herc isn't one of the greatest hand to hand combatants. He'd nip it in the bud

Amen. Real world example: Is anyone here aware that the world record bench-press is 1075 lbs (Ryan Kennely)? Yet, who here thinks Ryan Kennely could beat the world heavy weight boxing champ, Vitali Klitscko in a fight? Exactly, strength does not equal fighting skill. Yet, it takes a really pissed off Hulk to equal or surpass, Thor in base strength. Thor should almost always win in a fight with the Hulk...and Marvel does understand this "skill" factor, although, there is a balance where that is concerned as well...(i.e., Black Panther puts the Silver Surfer in an arm hold...that'd be like a four year old trying to put an NFL football player in an arm hold, not gonna happen...). However, when two characters as evenly matched in strength as Thor and the Hulk are, the deciding factor would be fighting skill which Thor has tons of experience using...the Hulk is basically a bar room brawler. Victory: Thor.

 

[Mr. Green]

Too bad real world examples mean nothing when you're dealing with Hulk, whose strength can increase, who can regenerate extremely fast, and who can withstand getting shot by tanks.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Just to add to what Mr. Green says you cannot apply examples of people with static strength to a comic book creature whose strength and powers are dynamic. Plus the Hulk has fought through injury and I am talking about the type that left no skin on his bones.

NR, I know that a boxer can get knocked down because if the concussive nature of a hit to the head without sustaining much external injury. The thing is Hulk will recover at extreme speeds therefore making it difficult to knock him out even though it has happenned even recently.

 

[November Rain]

recover is fine but he should keep going down. recovering wouldn't necessarily stop his body shutting down, it'd just help him reboot quicker.

strength doesn't equal skill, especially enraged strength. anger generally leads to a lack of focus and organisation/efficiency.

any warrior with a clear head should be able to not find the hulk any more of a challenge when enraged, infact they should find him easier to deal with as he becomes sloppier.

I'm fine with them getting an unlucky tag but he should not be this 'undefeatable entity' when in savage mode.

i reiterate, there needs to be a clear definition between strength and skill in comics. The strongest person in the room regardless of healing and what not should not be the last person standing.

The funny thing is this is done alot with wolverine, he's pretty much the hulk equivalent at human esque level and you'd see people like cap, punisher, daredevil and black panther, deadpool and others handing him his ass.

There's more than one way to skin a cat, even a green one. Marvel should stop oversimplifying there combatants as sluggers.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

You do realise his speed also ups with his strength in combat....

 

[November Rain]

all his increasing factors don't mean squat if he's taken out in under a minute.

as long as his fighting ability doesn't go up with rage, it doesn't really matter. The knowledge is he gets madder which probably means he becomes a worse fighter.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

I understand what you would say if he had absoltely no fighting skill. It is safe to say that he does after all the years he has been fighting.