Comics Does Apocalypse have a goal?

[chris moore]

I can see Nur's philosophy of survival of the fittest - that only the strongest may serve him or inherit the planet or something. But what I dont get is where he's going with all he's tried in the past.

I'm just watching the last episode of X-Men Evolution, and the background, look, and motivations and goals of Apocalypse there are far superior than anything we've seen from the comic version.


So what's he want? Its not prosperity for mutant kind as even within mutants he declares that only the fittest of them may survive and thrive. In the past it was worship of his supremacy. The living god motif suited him; and his status as the face behind many of history's pharoah/deity/emperor like figures is inspired. I just dont get where he's coming from in the modern age - and it aint just Milligan's half arsed writing this time that's causing the confusion.

 

[El Bastardo]

Does Apocalypse have a goal? If written by Milligan, to be an asshat.

I jest, I jest.

I think that if we look at AoA, we can see his goal - One nation, under Apocalypse... or, well, one world. He's no messiah (unless a bloodied one), no benevolent god. Apocalypse is and wants to be a tyrant, ruling over the mutant population filled with only those who were strong enough to survive (either against him, or his horsemen, or perhaps each other), and crushing the human population under his heel.

That said... any Apocalypse since 1995 and AoA? Beats me. And Milligan ain't helping it any. Not even Fabian in the C&D prologue helped it.

 

[Wolverazio]

Apocalypse's goal is ultimately to be a force of nature.

In his purest form he is a catalyst for change and growth (or view himself to be). His creed is his life because there have been times when he was challenged one on one (end of AoA comes to mind against Mags) where he was happy he was beat b/c he was not fit to survive.

That's all he wants...maybe some more expansion on why he's so obsessive compulsive about it would be nice, but that's basically it. To continue to make the master race of the world stronger.

 

[Knightsaber Priss]

Well, you have to understand, in the cartoons they have to condense things like character development since they have factors like running time, or impending camcelations to dea with. Whereas in the comics they can take forever to develop the explanations for motives for certain characters.

 

[chris moore]

They cant really take forever - cos only three issues in and Milligan's depiction of Apocalypse, of Ozymandius, of Poccy's seeming naivety about his own ship, or gambit's reasing behind backing Apocalypse no matter how noble, of the choice in horsemen and their pathetic powers (seriously - upgrading Gazer from radiation immune skinny guy to strong big guy with a hammer? Why not have him be famine by razing anything he wants with radiation he absorbs from all sources? Or just giving Shiro back his normal powers - whooooo...)... Its makin me glad as hell the guy's gonna be gone.

At least in Evolution the horsemen were upgraded in their own powers to the point where they werent willingly serving him - and their upgrades meant virtually no ensemble of x-men had a chance. Here Shiro was taken out one on one by Rogue who hasnt even had those powers for long...

Its just... I dunno. Apocalypse seems like villain cannon fodder nowadays. The Drac/Nur mini that just finished really fleshed out who he was and what he was to others. Sadly it doesnt reflect on the present day En Sabah Nur.

I just hate how so much crap is written these days in the big two companies and everytime I read my favourite heroes being written poorly I cant help but think of at least two different ways I would have done the arc. The writers just dont seem to think about the lasting effects of things, or why things happen in the first place. Back story is never considered. But its virtually impossible to get submissions genuinely read and considered by these companies - I've just never bothered as I've no formal writing training (except for scientific papers) and no work experience in any aspect of the industry.

 

[Generation Lee]

Chris you have to remember that most writers are writing more than one book per month for the company unfortunately they cannot seem to sit awhile and read the background on characters oh wait Bru done this with Giant sized X-Men look at the result there in fan reaction lol. Anyway back to the point if any I feel its just becomming one big production line were comics are simply pushed out and the Companies make money.

 

[El Bastardo]

Any writer worth the paper he writes on will research that which he is writing. Yeah, Bru knew who he was writing, what he was writing, and what he was changing - yes, some people love it, some people hate it, but that's the way of things.

But yeah, a lot of the stuff being printed is crap. It's inconsistent with past continuity (this is not equated with retconning) or just plain trivial. It's fodder for the buck.

I didn't read the Apoc/Drac mini. I figured it was going to be another godawful title, but I'm apparently wrong (happily). It's about time.

The thing is, it seems that many writers working in comics today (an increasing amount) aren't worth the paper they write on. Yeah, you might hate Bru for what he did in Deadly Genesis, but he knew what he was doing. But when it comes to hating Milligan (my other dirty example), probably the biggest reason to hate him is that he didn't know what he was doing. But that's for the X-Men thread.

But... yeah. I think you've learned this lesson now, chris, but if you're looking for Apocalypse reasoning, don't look at Milligan's characterization of him. >_<

Just to continue furthering the thread, can you elaborate on what Apoc/Drac fleshed out for the Apocalypse character?

 

[chris moore]

The concept that Apocalypse must have been with the occasional woman in his thousands of years - specially when he was being worshipped. This has led to offspring who have differing degrees of his abilities depending on how closely related they are to Nur.
These offspring are called the Clan Akkaba and most of them were pretty pompous - the most powerful rules the clan until picked off.

The Dracula side of it was merely that when the human body of Dracula was killed in battle in the 1400's, it was Apocalypses army who did it - but Apocalypse didnt think the warlord Vlad worthy of his attention so he sent a horseman to kill him. Centuries later when Drac's a vampire, he starts knocking off clan members to get Apocalypse's attention. He's pissed at not being given respect, so has a fight with Nur.

The other fleshing out was the last name of the clan member who was one of the good guys(or as good as it gets being on the side of En Sabah Nur) being Starsmore. And the hero of the piece (of sorts) was the pink haired, green eyed teleporter who was pretty much a vegetable (cos his brother Hamilton crippled him cos he knew the guy was going to be more powerful than him and rule the clan). That guy was introduced to a prostitute called Miss Ferguson by Ozymandius in order for the clan to carry on without Apocalypse knowing about it - its meant to suggest that Blink is the descendant of this character, and that Jono "Chamber" Starsmore may be the great great grandson of the only other suriving member of the clan Akkaba (Akkaba being the place Apocalypse grew up I think)

 

[Morgoth]

He has a goal, and it's toilet paper.

 

[El Bastardo]

The concept that Apocalypse must have been with the occasional woman in his thousands of years - specially when he was being worshipped. This has led to offspring who have differing degrees of his abilities depending on how closely related they are to Nur.
These offspring are called the Clan Akkaba and most of them were pretty pompous - the most powerful rules the clan until picked off.

The Dracula side of it was merely that when the human body of Dracula was killed in battle in the 1400's, it was Apocalypses army who did it - but Apocalypse didnt think the warlord Vlad worthy of his attention so he sent a horseman to kill him. Centuries later when Drac's a vampire, he starts knocking off clan members to get Apocalypse's attention. He's pissed at not being given respect, so has a fight with Nur.

The other fleshing out was the last name of the clan member who was one of the good guys(or as good as it gets being on the side of En Sabah Nur) being Starsmore. And the hero of the piece (of sorts) was the pink haired, green eyed teleporter who was pretty much a vegetable (cos his brother Hamilton crippled him cos he knew the guy was going to be more powerful than him and rule the clan). That guy was introduced to a prostitute called Miss Ferguson by Ozymandius in order for the clan to carry on without Apocalypse knowing about it - its meant to suggest that Blink is the descendant of this character, and that Jono "Chamber" Starsmore may be the great great grandson of the only other suriving member of the clan Akkaba (Akkaba being the place Apocalypse grew up I think)

That all sounds pretty damn cool.

 

[Spectre722]

yup linking blink and chamber to apocalypse was a stroke of genius, way to go tieri!

 

[chris moore]

I've never thought of Apocalypse as a saviour of mutantkind. I can see he wants them to think of him as their messiah, as their god - but all his machinations this time round has no substance to them. I would prefer it if Apocalypse instigated some behind the scenes stuff. Y'know, like all of a sudden, new players are attacking x-men off campus to test them of their worthiness. Kinda like (but lets not dwell there) the road to Onslaught where mutants selected by Onslaught started targetting specific people and all kinds of mystery stuff was going on that the x-men didnt know was all linked and didnt know where any single event was coming from. Now that is how you make a year long arc without making it a 12 issue arc. Three four issue arcs, with the last being the actual return and appearance of Apocalypse. It would allow for more rationalisation of his goals as they build towards the end.

 

[Spectre722]

bottom line...

Apocalypse has become somewhat of a joke, but I always have and will fear him because ten years ago we saw what life would be like if he conquered the world...and it was hell on earth.

 

[The Infernal]

Does anyone have any pictures of what his Horsemen looked like in the Drac/Apoc mini?

Is there any sites that list all of his Horesmen to date, even the relatively unkown ones?

 

[El Bastardo]

I've never thought of Apocalypse as a saviour of mutantkind. I can see he wants them to think of him as their messiah, as their god - but all his machinations this time round has no substance to them. I would prefer it if Apocalypse instigated some behind the scenes stuff. Y'know, like all of a sudden, new players are attacking x-men off campus to test them of their worthiness. Kinda like (but lets not dwell there) the road to Onslaught where mutants selected by Onslaught started targetting specific people and all kinds of mystery stuff was going on that the x-men didnt know was all linked and didnt know where any single event was coming from. Now that is how you make a year long arc without making it a 12 issue arc. Three four issue arcs, with the last being the actual return and appearance of Apocalypse. It would allow for more rationalisation of his goals as they build towards the end.

I mostly agree with you, however:

I don't see Apocalypse as a savior or messianic figure, and I don't think he, at his core, would want to be seen as such. That's a Milliganism, really and ultimately, and I think we should probably leave it at that. And I'd say we should probably not look at that whole "The Twelve" Apoc arc, either, if we want characterization. Which is why I say the Apocalypse we saw in the Age of Apocalypse, and even what we saw of him during Onslaught, is more of a true characterization and closer to the core of what En Sabah Nur is/has become. That is, a tyrant whose personal and would-be ruler dogma is that of Social Darwinism. That was kind of the thing behind AoA: Apocalypse was waiting until Homo Superior emerged in full force to make his move, and when Legion went back in time and offed Xavier, Apocalypse took that as emergence.

But, yeah. I'd love to see Apocalypse playing around with things in the background, either as himself, or through SINISTER. Sinister makes the perfect puppet-player.

 

[The Infernal]

But, yeah. I'd love to see Apocalypse playing around with things in the background, either as himself, or through SINISTER. Sinister makes the perfect puppet-player.

Yeah, but don't they hate each other now?

 

[El Bastardo]

Well, sure, but... I don't know, I wanted to add in some strange and obscure quote here, but, alas, nothing came to mind. Let us all weep.

Considering Sinister's origins lie with Apocalypse, there's really no reason that a good writer couldn't put the two of them back together.

But, noooooo. The last time Marvel did something with Sinister was that godawful ending to Colossus: Bloodlines.