Sci-Fi Dune

[Kane52630]

 

[Sithborg]

They've totally written themselves into a corner with this ending.

Have they? Or have they read Messiah, and realize, that some fundamental changes should be made, especially in relating to the female characters. Because lets be honest here, Messiah does not treat Chani, Irulan, or Alia that well. And there is no way Vlllenueve is just going to leave Ferguson's Jessica out of the finale of the trilogy. Just from what I've read, to me, it makes Messiah a much more interesting film.

We will see how I feel after I get back from my viewing tonight, but I suspect the moves to avoid ROTS Padme is not going to bother me too much.

 

[emielaen]

Seeing it tomorrow and having read around these spoiler tags while also having read the first book but not Messiah (yet), it seems the people kinda disappointed with the story had preconceived notions on what it should’ve been having read the books.

I shall see and actually read these spoilers from you guys soon. Very excited but I’m honestly intrigued by what could be so damning to some of you guys.

 

[TheVileOne]

Have they? Or have they read Messiah, and realize, that some fundamental changes should be made, especially in relating to the female characters. Because lets be honest here, Messiah does not treat Chani, Irulan, or Alia that well. And there is no way Vlllenueve is just going to leave Ferguson's Jessica out of the finale of the trilogy. Just from what I've read, to me, it makes Messiah a much more interesting film.

We will see how I feel after I get back from my viewing tonight, but I suspect the moves to avoid ROTS Padme is not going to bother me too much.

Yes, they definitely have. What fundamental changes should be made? Also, if the whole point is to avoid repeating Revenge of the Sith, then they shouldn't even adapt Dune Messiah at all and simply end it with Dune.

Spoiler

Your points are lost on me. I'm not sure how they were mistreated. It's a story. They are fictional characters. Characters in fiction go through conflict. They go through torment and hardship and tragedies happen. Dune is not a happy go lucky fairy tale.

Also, Lady Jessica is present in the later stories and has a role. Not to mention, the movie altered Jessica a lot and made her more psychotic.

If anything, Jessica and Chani were mistreated in the movies.

 

[DKDetective]

 

[Sithborg]

Yes, they definitely have. What fundamental changes should be made? Also, if the whole point is to avoid repeating Revenge of the Sith, then they shouldn't even adapt Dune Messiah at all and simply end it with Dune.

Spoiler

Your points are lost on me. I'm not sure how they were mistreated. It's a story. They are fictional characters. Characters in fiction go through conflict. They go through torment and hardship and tragedies happen. Dune is not a happy go lucky fairy tale.

Also, Lady Jessica is present in the later stories and has a role. Not to mention, the movie altered Jessica a lot and made her more psychotic.

If anything, Jessica and Chani were mistreated in the movies.

Messiah spoilers

Spoiler

So, your position is that how George treated Padme in ROTS, turning a very active woman character into a glorified incubator, whose whole role is to birth children is okay from a narrative standpoint? And that is all Chani is in Messiah. Her entire focus is not just being pregnant, but getting pregnant. For someone who is in many ways a prototype of a lot of scifi heroines, its pathetic.

And Irulan's motivations and actions in Messiah are not great, and boiled down to scorned woman. She is a character that is ripe for expansion. Especially important if someone has Children in mind.

And even with casting an older actress, lets just say that Alia's little bit of story focus is still kind of gross.

Jessica is not in Messiah, which I think would be a mistake for a movie adaptation, especially for a "trilogy".

I love Frank Herbert's Dune books. But to say that there is stuff that should not be changed is grossly mistaken.

 

[TheVileOne]

Messiah spoilers

Spoiler

So, your position is that how George treated Padme in ROTS, turning a very active woman character into a glorified incubator, whose whole role is to birth children is okay from a narrative standpoint? And that is all Chani is in Messiah. Her entire focus is not just being pregnant, but getting pregnant. For someone who is in many ways a prototype of a lot of scifi heroines, its pathetic.

And Irulan's motivations and actions in Messiah are not great, and boiled down to scorned woman. She is a character that is ripe for expansion. Especially important if someone has Children in mind.

And even with casting an older actress, lets just say that Alia's little bit of story focus is still kind of gross.

Jessica is not in Messiah, which I think would be a mistake for a movie adaptation, especially for a "trilogy".

I love Frank Herbert's Dune books. But to say that there is stuff that should not be changed is grossly mistaken.

I don't agree at all with how you are conflating or interpreting things.

 

[Man in the Suit]

 

[Filmfreak]

I try not to sound extreme with my immediate reactions because I need time to process stuff and excitement can wear off, but **** it, this thing was absolutely phenomenal!

One of the best cinematic experiences I've ever had in my life, and it's possible you can count them on one hand.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Wonderful movie. I want this to marinate, but I think between the 2 movies, this might be the best cinematic achievement since LOTR. Just in terms of pure cinema, this was outstanding.

Yes, the ending is different and I am curious to see how it's handled come Dune Messiah time, but I think it can work just fine. It really works for this movie.

 

[kguillou]

As a nonreader of the books can someone tell me whats so different and contentious about the ending amongst the fans? Just curious. I dont mind Dune Measiah spoilers.

 

[Spider-Fan]

As a nonreader of the books can someone tell me whats so different and contentious about the ending amongst the fans? Just curious. I dont mind Dune Measiah spoilers.

Spoiler

The plot of Dune Messiah hinges on Paul having a vision of Chani giving birth to their child, but dies in child birth and Paul spends the entirely of the book trying to stop it and save Chani while dealing with all the enemies of the Galaxy coming for him, but no matter what future he looks into, he cannot do it.

So if Chani isn't with Paul at this moment, the jumping on point is different. Suffice to say though, there is more to the story and how it resolves but I think this is the point of contention

 

[Comicbookguy339]

As a nonreader of the books can someone tell me whats so different and contentious about the ending amongst the fans? Just curious. I dont mind Dune Measiah spoilers.

Spoiler

Well, Chani is written very differently in the film. Here she's a total sceptic and ends up leaving Paul at the end of the film because he seemingly changes into a power-hungry character like all the other outworlders Chani has ever known and on top of it all he shocks her with his declaration about marrying Princess Irulan. In the book she's really not different from any of the other Fremen and she's with Paul by the end of the book. The final line of the novel is said by Jessica to Chani:

"Think on it, Chani: that princess will have the name, yet she’ll live as less than a concubine – never to know a moment of tenderness from the man to whom she’s bound. While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine – history will call us wives."

So in the novel Chani understands that Paul marrying Princess Irulan is a purely political move. But I'm actually fine with all of this. A big departure for sure but Chani is given more to do here and that's not a bad thing. The problem I have is that in the movie the Great Houses refuse to acknowledge Paul as the new ruler and Paul tells the Fremen to basically kill them all. If the Great Houses don't recognize Paul as the new emperor then the whole plot about him needing to capture the emperor and the princess becomes completely pointless. In this scenario he gains nothing from marrying Irulan. He's ultimately not gaining power through any political maneuvering but through brute force.

Furthermore, by being the one who personally orders the holy war on the rest of the universe, Paul becomes a complete villain. In the books the holy war takes place some time between Dune and Dune Messiah and it really doesn't have anything to do with Paul needing to assert himself as a ruler. It's religious zealotry that he can no longer control. So in my eyes the movie version of Paul is just an irredeemable monster now. Villeneuve wanted to end with all the drama but didn't think through the implications imo (especially in terms of how Paul's plan to marry Irulan and the Great Hosues refusing to recognize his position invalidate one another).

 

[KaijuDude1992]

Now, that was EPIC and truly a CINEMATIC experience. I doubt any other blockbusters this year will come close to this but then again I think Villeneuve already somewhat accomplished that Part 1 as well.

As much as I loved Part 1 this is definitely a better film in almost every way. The pacing, cinematography and that insane score really stood out here and man Chalamet will certainly become iconic in this role.

His performance is top notch here, but Austin Butler was easily my favorite performance in this movie. Such a cool, memorable villain with amazing screen presence and I just wish he got a bit more screentime.

The movie isn't perfect, but the flaws didn't bring it down for me either.

10/10

 

[Spider-Fan]

Seriously, I dont like using the term much, but I would consider Dune/Dune Part 2 a masterpiece.

 

[Sithborg]

As a nonreader of the books can someone tell me whats so different and contentious about the ending amongst the fans? Just curious. I dont mind Dune Measiah spoilers.

Dune Messiah spoilers

Spoiler

As others have said, in the book, Chani stays with Paul as concubine while Irulan is wife. It is a massive shift in the dynamics in Messiah. Not just Chani but also Irulan. In the books, Irulan is generally ignored by Paul. Which is the central focus of Irulan's motivations in Messiah. It is what motivates her to get involved with the main plot against Paul in the book. Also, her actions of slipping contraceptives to Chani leads to the situation of Chani's twins becoming preborn, like Alia.

Just got out of it. Absolutely loved it. The purists are going to rage, but I loved it. Villenueve's movies are absolutely the best Dune story, though, I would not call them the best adaptations. Scifi I think will still be my go to for best adaptation. But, I think Villenueve's trilogy is going to be top tier cinema. I will probably post more spoilerly thoughts after I have let the movie settle for a bit. I am definitely going to go back a few times.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Dune Messiah spoilers

Spoiler

As others have said, in the book, Chani stays with Paul as concubine while Irulan is wife. It is a massive shift in the dynamics in Messiah. Not just Chani but also Irulan. In the books, Irulan is generally ignored by Paul. Which is the central focus of Irulan's motivations in Messiah. It is what motivates her to get involved with the main plot against Paul in the book. Also, her actions of slipping contraceptives to Chani leads to the situation of Chani's twins becoming preborn, like Alia.

Just got out of it. Absolutely loved it. The purists are going to rage, but I loved it. Villenueve's movies are absolutely the best Dune story, though, I would not call them the best adaptations. Scifi I think will still be my go to for best adaptation. But, I think Villenueve's trilogy is going to be top tier cinema. I will probably post more spoilerly thoughts after I have let the movie settle for a bit. I am definitely going to go back a few times.

Spoiler

I think they can work around the changes they made to the ending. It will change Dune Messiah quite a bit, but they can easily still maintain the core of the story easily enough IMO

 

[Sithborg]

Spoiler

I think they can work around the changes they made to the ending. It will change Dune Messiah quite a bit, but they can easily still maintain the core of the story easily enough IMO

Spoiler

Oh, absolutely. And based on what happened in 2, I am absolutely intrigued. Because Villenueve has said 2 is through the lens of Messiah, but I absolutely think there was some Children influence on certain characters.

Also, I need Hayt. Sooooo badly. I need to see that actor try that role

 

[Spider-Fan]

Spoiler

Oh, absolutely. And based on what happened in 2, I am absolutely intrigued. Because Villenueve has said 2 is through the lens of Messiah, but I absolutely think there was some Children influence on certain characters.

Also, I need Hayt. Sooooo badly. I need to see that actor try that role

Spoiler

There definitely is some Children of Dune in there, absolutely. And it being through the lens of Dune Messiah I can now see what he means, and it definitely makes sense and I think works very well with Herbert's original intent. I'm okay with all the changes they made

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

Watching this bad boy later tonight after work. Excited to start the spring movie season!

 

[Bats123]

My GOD.
No spoilers but one moment near the end gave me full body goosebumps. Haven't felt that in a while.
Im going in again tomorrow before i form my complete thoughts but man, take a ****ing bow, Denis.

 

[Spider-Fan]

There isn't gonna be a better movie this year IMO

 

[TheVileOne]

Spoiler: Dune Messiah book spoilers

I think that's a little bit presumptuous, Villeneuve has specifically said he wrote this ending with Messiah in mind. In the film, Paul says he's seen Chani will eventually come around to the situation. What that will entail remains to be seen, but this ending not only adds to her character but distances her from the jihad. Chani is barely a character in Messiah, she's the epitome of barefoot, pregnant, and devoted to her man. Clearly, Villeneuve isn't interested in doing that, but that doesn't mean certain story beats will be entirely removed. Leto and Ghanima will be born in the next movie, I don't doubt that at all. This is what Denis last said about the continuing franchise:

"I'm a big, massive Dune fan. But as a filmmaker, I think that, for my mental sanity, it will be interesting also to--there's other stories that I want to tell. And those movies are very long to make, and it takes years and years. And so I feel that the truth is that I go one movie at a time," Villeneuve said.

"Now that Part Two is finished, I feel that I could do a third one. When the third one will be finished, how will I feel? I don't know, maybe I will find you again in three or four years, like, 'You know what? I'm doing another.' But I cannot say that for now."

So I highly doubt he would actually write himself or another filmmaker out from a possible continuation. Legendary and WB will undoubtedly want more Dune as well and that requires the twins, and Paul and Chani to reunite for that to happen.

I think that's a total misunderstanding and misinterpretation of Dune: Messiah.

 

[TheVileOne]

Spoiler

I think they can work around the changes they made to the ending. It will change Dune Messiah quite a bit, but they can easily still maintain the core of the story easily enough IMO

There's no working around it unless the story is completely changed from the top down.

 

[Spider-Fan]

There's no working around it unless the story is completely changed from the top down.

I don't agree with that sentiment at all. Sure, it won't be exactly the same, but it won't be top down different.