Everything that's just wrong with B&R

[Kevin Roegele]

The Batman & Robin Hatred Backlash is warming up.....

I myself used to despise, absolutely despite B&R, largely because it was such a departure from what I wanted. Which was Burton-flavour Batman. Whereas B&R was colourful, silly, and I couldn't see what was happenign during the fight scenes.

And it seemingly killed the franchise, thereby being the last word on the Batman movies.

However, now that the series is back on track, B&R has a worthy position in the series; it took Batman the very furthest it could go in the direction of colourful silliness for all the family (in the same way Returns went as far as Batman could in terms of Burtonishness), and illustrated why Batman works better onscreen when he is treated more seriously.

Also, now that B&R is no longer the last of the series, it's status is reduced to just another Batman movie to be judged on it's own merits. There are darker movies before and after B&R; thus it's refreshing to see something lighter amidst it all.

And finally, now I do actively like and enjoy the movie. Whilst the details are what everyone hates (nipples, neon, puns), it's a decent and effective story well paced and executed (the more important things). It's a story about how people cope with the fear of loss (Ivy fears losing plant life, Freeze Nora, Batman Alfred). Schumacher is hands down better at storytelling and pacing than Burton, and Schumacher's movies have solid character development for the main characters. As well as simply much more incident than the Burton movies (of course I prefer Burton's Batmans, but they are not superior on every single level).

As for details.....I love the dichotomy between Freeze (cold-hearted) and Ivy (who works on passion and desire). I like the idea of Freeze making a huge cannon to cover the entire of Gotham in ice, it's so comicbooky. I like all the unrestrained imagination that has gone into the production design. I like the subtle blue of Batman's costume. I like the sinister scene of Diego being forced onto the table to be Bane-afied. I love the lighting in almost every single scene. I love Schumacher's version of Arkham Asylum. I like the costumes of Freeze's thugs. At the end of the day, I can enjoy it as a simple adventure narrative.

And I love the cinemaography. I wish Burton had Steven Goldblatt working on the previous movies as well.

 

[Joker]

How is Freeze "cold hearted" at all? Last I remember cold hearted people act, you know, cold. Freeze was constantly laughing at his own jokes and making his henchmen sing "I'm Mister White Christmas." When I think cold, I think James Bond in the books. That guy was f**king cold hearted.

And the story ISNT good or well carried out. The entire premise is so out there and flawed that it just doesnt work. If Freeze and Ivy freeze the whole world, how exactly is plant life going to re-grow? And even when it eventually does through the course of nature, Ivy and Freeze will have been dead for thousands if not millions of years (if there plan is truely as they say to "usher in a new ice age").

And while the technical things in the movie (cinematography, etc.) are all fine and well, those cant save a movie that is at it's core as flawed as this movie is. And it not being the last one doesnt make it any better. Superman 3 and 4 weren't the last Superman movies anymore, but that doesnt stop them from being steaming piles of crap, just like this movie.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

This backlash-backlash is a little absurd. There's really no question that it's a really awful film.

There are technical ineptitudes. Reversing the film to have Robin dragged under water by the vines?

There are utterly nonsensical plot elements. Alfred (before or after his sickness?) prepared a Batsuit for Barbara just in case 1.) she showed up at the mansion 2.) she found her way to the Batcave 3.) she was even interested in becoming a superhero?

And for me, it commits the biggest no-no of all big, loud, boisterous summer films - there are long stretches of the movie that are just boring. The motorcycle racing scene is sheer agony. Sure, the movie can be fun to watch sometimes (mostly saved by Arnie) but I can't say I've watched the whole thing in one sitting in a long, long time. There are fun scenes, but they can be fastforwarded to.

But the most aggravating part of it is that all the silliness and absurdity can be so easily excused because "it's riffing off the old campy comics." Well, those comics really blew, too. There's a reason they went the way of the dodo. The movie just fails, in my opinion, where the Adam West show succeeded. The show took a similar approach, but was, for whatever reason, infinitely more entertaining and truly, intentionally funny. Perhaps it has something to do with the big budget Hollywood extravaganza that B&R was that makes me annoyed with what a group of really talented people with a buttload of money churned out.

 

[Yodaman]

It says something about B&R when it's more cartoony than the then contemporary Batman cartoon.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

How is Freeze "cold hearted" at all? Last I remember cold hearted people act, you know, cold. Freeze was constantly laughing at his own jokes and making his henchmen sing "I'm Mister White Christmas." When I think cold, I think James Bond in the books. That guy was f**king cold hearted.

Everyone in the movie makes jokes. Freeze is a comic exageration of cold-hearted. He's a formely good, loving man turned bitter.

And the story ISNT good or well carried out. The entire premise is so out there and flawed that it just doesnt work. If Freeze and Ivy freeze the whole world, how exactly is plant life going to re-grow? And even when it eventually does through the course of nature, Ivy and Freeze will have been dead for thousands if not millions of years (if there plan is truely as they say to "usher in a new ice age").

That's not the story, that's a typically ridiculous supervillain plan customary in many superhero stories.

And while the technical things in the movie (cinematography, etc.) are all fine and well, those cant save a movie that is at it's core as flawed as this movie is. And it not being the last one doesnt make it any better. Superman 3 and 4 weren't the last Superman movies anymore, but that doesnt stop them from being steaming piles of crap, just like this movie.

No, but Superman IV was the tail-end of a dying series anyway. The Batman series was in it's prime when B&R hit.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

This backlash-backlash is a little absurd. There's really no question that it's a really awful film.

There are technical ineptitudes. Reversing the film to have Robin dragged under water by the vines?

Yeah, that was crap, but that's about one second. Batman has obvious animated shots.

There are utterly nonsensical plot elements. Alfred (before or after his sickness?) prepared a Batsuit for Barbara just in case 1.) she showed up at the mansion 2.) she found her way to the Batcave 3.) she was even interested in becoming a superhero?

Yeah, that was very weak. Alfred understood that Bruce and Dick had to fight crime to exorcise their demons. Barbara has no such tragic motivation, other than, "I'd like to help Batman and Robin." Would Alfred really encourage a young girl, his family, into such behaviour?

But the most aggravating part of it is that all the silliness and absurdity can be so easily excused because "it's riffing off the old campy comics." Well, those comics really blew, too. There's a reason they went the way of the dodo. The movie just fails, in my opinion, where the Adam West show succeeded. The show took a similar approach, but was, for whatever reason, infinitely more entertaining and truly, intentionally funny. Perhaps it has something to do with the big budget Hollywood extravaganza that B&R was that makes me annoyed with what a group of really talented people with a buttload of money churned out.

I agree with this point. The 60's show was GOOD camp. B&R is BAD camp. Adam West is an absolute master at po-faced absurdity. George Clooney is not. The 60's show understood camp by doing ridiculous things (Batman dancing in a club) in a serious manner. B&R draws attention to the ridiculous elements, thus misunderstanding camp.

 

[Mr. Socko]

Schumacher is hands down better at storytelling and pacing than Burton

I really hope you are joking.

The pacing part is certainly debatable...but Schumacher better at storytelling than Burton? Tim Burton is THE master storyteller. No one would even dare compare theirhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Burton#Filmography filmographies. Burton is one of the best cinematic storytellers there are.

And then you had to throw more kindle on the flames by saying "hands down"

aye yih yih! Schumacher has made a total of about one or two great films in his entire career. Can't even compare to Tim Burton when it comes to storytelling.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

I really hope you are joking.

The pacing part is certainly debatable...but Schumacher better at storytelling than Burton? Tim Burton is THE master storyteller. No one would even dare compare theirhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Burton#Filmography filmographies. Burton is one of the best cinematic storytellers there are.

And then you had to throw more kindle on the flames by saying "hands down"

aye yih yih! Schumacher has made a total of about one or two great films in his entire career. Can't even compare to Tim Burton when it comes to storytelling.

A master storyteller? You really think so?

Burton is not even intrested in storytelling. He's intrested in characters and places. He creates weird characters, puts them in a weird world, and watches them go.

As Daniel Waters (writer of Batman Returns) says, "As you might know, with Tim Burton anything that has to do with a plot he doesn't really want to deal with."

Or, better put by Richard Alleva at The Tim Burton Collective, "Ed Wood, for all its charm, is ample proof that Burton can't shape a story to any real dramatic purpose, isn't interested in character development, and can't bring his narrative to a true climax. Ed has a few moments of doubt about his abilities after his first fiasco, dismisses them, doubts himself again after the next bomb, revives, and so it goes. The structure of this movie is a seesaw, not a mountain climb. Our hero's meeting with Orson Welles in which the great man tells Wood to follow his dream against all odds, is meant to be the story's dramatic peak but only reinforces our perception of Ed as a freak of fatuousness."

I love Burton movies as much as anyone else here, he's one of my favourite directors, but his strengths lie elsewhere, not in storytelling.

 

[Mr. Socko]

But we all know how fantastic the storytelling of Number 23 was...riiiiggghhhttt

 

[Vile]

There is no excuse for Batman and Robin. People who defend it as being 'true to the old comic books' and having truely 'comic book' characters are just trying to defend anything with 'Batman' in the title. Not only was it a HORRIBLE Batman movie...it was just a bad MOVIE overall.

Nothing in it made sense. It killed the franchise for a reason! Why? Because it was horrible! And not in a "well it was bad, but represented the old 60's version of the comics' way. It, and Batman Forever were just BAD. Plain old bad.

Showgirls bad. Glitter bad. Gigli bad.

 

[Joker]

There is no excuse for Batman and Robin. People who defend it as being 'true to the old comic books' and having truely 'comic book' characters are just trying to defend anything with 'Batman' in the title. Not only was it a HORRIBLE Batman movie...it was just a bad MOVIE overall.

Nothing in it made sense. It killed the franchise for a reason! Why? Because it was horrible! And not in a "well it was bad, but represented the old 60's version of the comics' way. It, and Batman Forever were just BAD. Plain old bad.

Showgirls bad. Glitter bad. Gigli bad.

Gigli sucked, but at least the ******ed guy was funny, and is actually quite hillarious for all the wrong reasons...Batman and Robin on the other hand just makes me angry...except for Arnold, he's hillarious, also for all the wrong reasons...

 

[Vile]

Gigli sucked, but at least the ******ed guy was funny, and is actually quite hillarious for all the wrong reasons...Batman and Robin on the other hand just makes me angry...except for Arnold, he's hillarious, also for all the wrong reasons...

Like you said - It's only enjoyable in a "Hey! Who wants a good laugh? Lets watch Batman and Robin! We'll do shots everytime Arnold makes a 'cold' pun!" way.

Much like those movies I listed above.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

But we all know how fantastic the storytelling of Number 23 was...riiiiggghhhttt

Come on, you must have a better argument than that.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

There is no excuse for Batman and Robin. People who defend it as being 'true to the old comic books' and having truely 'comic book' characters are just trying to defend anything with 'Batman' in the title. Not only was it a HORRIBLE Batman movie...it was just a bad MOVIE overall.

Nothing in it made sense. It killed the franchise for a reason! Why? Because it was horrible! And not in a "well it was bad, but represented the old 60's version of the comics' way. It, and Batman Forever were just BAD. Plain old bad.

Showgirls bad. Glitter bad. Gigli bad.

................anyway, here's where you can buy Batman & Robin posters: http://www.moviegoods.com/movie_product.asp?cmio=&sku=192902&master_movie_id=9773

t:

 

[Two-Face]

I actually liked Showgirls, women dancing and taking their clothes off but B&R was campy stupid film I rather watch Showgirls instead

 

[Kevin Roegele]

I actually liked Showgirls, women dancing and taking their clothes off but B&R was campy stupid film I rather watch Showgirls instead

Wow, you're so masculine I'm intimidated.

 

[Mr. Socko]

Come on, you must have a better argument than that.

tou f***ing ché

 

[Kevin Roegele]

tou f***ing ché

I guess not.

 

[Vile]

................anyway, here's where you can buy Batman & Robin posters: http://www.moviegoods.com/movie_product.asp?cmio=&sku=192902&master_movie_id=9773

t:

*Scrambles for his credit card*


...WHAT?! =)

 

[BubbaGump]

Gigli bad.

I had an audition in LA a few years back and while I went to get a bite to eat at Subway, I walked passed the Gigli red carpet premier in Westwood.

If I only I knew it was going to crash and burn, I would've done something to stop it.

"It was nothing you did. It was him, and him alone."

"I miss them, Alfred. I miss them so much."

 

[Vile]

I had an audition in LA a few years back and while I went to get a bite to eat at Subway, I walked passed the Gigli red carpet premier in Westwood.

If I only I knew it was going to crash and burn, I would've done something to stop it.

"It was nothing you did. It was him, and him alone."

"I miss them, Alfred. I miss them so much."

LOL!

You should have struck...in OUR name!

 

[Yodaman]

................anyway, here's where you can buy Batman & Robin posters: http://www.moviegoods.com/movie_product.asp?cmio=&sku=192902&master_movie_id=9773

t:

The suits don't have nipples in that poster

 

[Kevin Roegele]

The suits don't have nipples in that poster

Blasphemy!

 

[Mr. Socko]

LOL It's crazy how people notice these things. When I saw that poster I wasn't even looking for nipples.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

LOL It's crazy how people notice these things. When I saw that poster I wasn't even looking for nipples.

When do you look for nipples? Do you have a specific part of your day for it?