Fantastic 4 # 562--spoilers to follow

[BrianWilly]

Wow sir.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Or here's an idea. How bout trading bodies with The Sentry and then breaking your own body out later?

Remember. Bobby pin and pubes. Bobby pin and pubes.

This is Doom!!!

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Wow sir.

MacGyver ain't got nothin' on Doom.

 

[fifthfiend]

Or here's an idea. How bout trading bodies with The Sentry and then breaking your own body out later?

But see, that's a good, interesting, cool idea. If Bendis wrote things like that, where would he fit in all of his dreary, banal hackwork?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Maybe he could have Doom take over the Sentry's body but find that the Sentry's neuroses are hardwired into his brain! Then Doom has to run away and suck his thumb in the corner rather than actually free his own body or be in any way useful.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Are we talking about the man who willed himself to stay conscious while half his body was being dissected by the Beyonder? The guy who can stare down the Purple Man and not even flinch? The guy who...


Aw hell, it's Bendis anyway. Of course it's hardwired in.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That's the hackwork.

 

[fifthfiend]

Maybe he could have Doom take over the Sentry's body but find that the Sentry's neuroses are hardwired into his brain! Then Doom has to run away and suck his thumb in the corner rather than actually free his own body or be in any way useful.

Upon consideration you're right, it's much more Bendis' style to take an idea that actually contains the capacity for being good and interesting and then hacking away at it until he reduces it to his usual level of boring drivel.

 

[Dread]

I was just about to ask if the Avengers' "war" with Latveria was approved by Congress. You can't just say that since the Avengers work for the US, their arrest of Doom was okay because he's a war criminal. Technically, the Avengers themselves are war criminals for attacking a sovereign nation without an official declaration of war. Nick Fury's still a fugitive for doing the exact same thing, in fact.

Unless, of course, this wasn't US-related at all and Iron Man was acting as an international peacekeeper or whatever in his role as SHIELD's director. That might be okay, although I don't know what the laws would be for SHIELD since it's fictional and all.

Yeah, Iron Man's connection to SHIELD makes things dicey as technically that is supposed to be an international force. It deals in and with the U.S. very heavily, but also in Europe and other countries.

Plus, well, you could argue Iron Man had more direct evidence to target Dr. Doom that Nick Fury did.

What I especially loved about that MIGHTY AVENGERS incident was the "battle planning", or lack thereof. Here Iron Man had waged a personal war with fellow friends and heroes over the issue of superheroes acting without training, recklessly, just smashing first and taking things like laws or consequences after. As head of SHIELD, any invasion of a country ruled by a supervillain with access to hi technology and enough magic to make Dr. Strange admit him a worthy mage should be done delicately. Instead, what was the entire battle plan? Fly in with one jet, smash things, and scream while doing so. Aside for Ares crashing the jet into stuff for a blunt projectile entrance, there was no strategy beyond charging in and busting heads. Iron Man had condoned the arrest and banishment to another dimension of superheroes who were less reckless in tackling MUGGERS. Here Iron Man was taking on, arguably, his planet's most dangerous and connected villain/despot and his entire strategy was "We're pissed, hit and repeat". I think Punisher employed more than that in PUNISHER KILLS THE MARVEL UNIVERSE. That is almost the same strategy Luke Cage had when he invaded Latveria because Doom owed him $200 (maybe $500-$600 by today's inflation standards).

Fortunately for the heroes, Dr. Doom was too distracted by having had sex with Morgan LeFey that he kept his time window open which compromised him during the battle for quite some time. Also fortunately, he had no defenses beyond an army of robots and not the occasional superhumans Dr. Doom sporatically creates. And, of course, Sentry decided to stop crying and hit something. The hero that failed to beat any worthwhile threat in years aside for Carnage managed to stop Doom, when he wasn't too busy making crass insults about female bodies that would have made even Man Mountain Marko blush.

Yeah, 2008 has been a bad year for Dr. Doom. Deposed in a manner worthy of a Hercules battle plan, not the head of SHIELD, jobbing to the crappiest superhero since NFL SUPERPRO, being kidnapped as a fuel source by alternate dimensional nobodies and then reduced to doing "SILENCE OF THE LAMBS" scenes with Reed while he awaits some of his former teachers to save him. All while Norman Osborn, a guy best known for his man-purse and Halloween themed explosives, becomes the next Lex Luthor in the most awkward way possible (again, this is akin to O.J. Simpson being given federal authority because he was caught on news cameras shooting Osama Bin Laden. Would this ever seriously happen? No.). Dr. Doom even considers Osborn, to paraphrase, "the greatest enemy we could ever face" alongside Namor. That's rubbish. This is a guy who overpowered the damn Beyonder being afraid of Green Goblin in a business suit.

One can only hope 2009 sees better by Doom. He's been down and deposed before, and it doesn't last.

An idea that I always had was to bring back his Terrible Trio, only make them more formidable. He used to send them to "another dimension" when he didn't need them and it seems a waste for Doom to allow a handful of capable superhumans loyal to him to languish in U.S. prison. Maybe he sent them to an alternate dimension to train and now they could return and be a worthy challenge for his enemies. But, whatever.

 

[Blader5489]

(again, this is akin to O.J. Simpson being given federal authority because he was caught on news cameras shooting Osama Bin Laden. Would this ever seriously happen? No.).

Actually, it's more like Ted Kennedy becoming secretary of defense because he shot bin Laden on TV.

 

[Dread]

Actually, it's more like Ted Kennedy becoming secretary of defense because he shot bin Laden on TV.

Ted Kennedy's infamous legal snafu (a nice way of saying "getting into a DUI and leaving a woman to die") isn't as bad as Norman Osborn's many atrocities. Plus, Osborn was not a politician nor connected with a politically famous name and a martyred relative. His time as the Goblin hasn't been mind-wiped clean like Spidey's marriage, has it? Which means he has many acts of destruction, attempted murder, and whatnot on his head (the death of Gwen Stacy, due to Spidey's web, may have enough "legal doubt" to absolve him of legal conviction for her outright death, but not endangerment or attempted murder; the webline may have snapped her neck, but without it, the fall would have killed her). If 1961-2009 is being treated as "15 years at most", then a lot of Goblin's bigger schemes, including a few attacks after his resurrection, happened under 5 years ago. It makes absolutely no sense that the same government and public that called Steve Rogers a traitor as he was shot to death would embrace Osborn as the Messiah.

Unless, of course, you go with the theory that Marvel citizens are genetically irrational and prone to always trust only those who are the most corrupt and outright evil. Call it a Celestial experiment left over.

 

[Obi-Ron]

Norman Osborn, a guy best known for his man-purse and Halloween themed explosives,

That made the whole post.

 

[Dread]

Glad someone appreciated it.

 

[Blader5489]

Ted Kennedy's infamous legal snafu (a nice way of saying "getting into a DUI and leaving a woman to die") isn't as bad as Norman Osborn's many atrocities.

Well, I don't remember how exactly Osborn's actions as the Green Goblin are remembered by, or spun to, the public. But I think he has been acknowledged as someone whose actions were the result of a mental disorder that is now under control by medication, and his publicly viewed actions in defending DC against Skrulls have obviously worked in winning over the favor of the people. Most people, I think, are easier won over by what they see rather than what they hear.

In any case, if people could accept Lex Luthor as president, I don't see why Norman Osborn's elevated status in the public eye is any harder to swallow.

Plus, Osborn was not a politician nor connected with a politically famous name and a martyred relative.

He has been a politician for the last couple years, he has been involved with whatever the SHRA governing body is (I think it's called the CSA?).

 

[Dread]

Well, I don't remember how exactly Osborn's actions as the Green Goblin are remembered by, or spun to, the public. But I think he has been acknowledged as someone whose actions were the result of a mental disorder that is now under control by medication, and his publicly viewed actions in defending DC against Skrulls have obviously worked in winning over the favor of the people. Most people, I think, are easier won over by what they see rather than what they hear.

In any case, if people could accept Lex Luthor as president, I don't see why Norman Osborn's elevated status in the public eye is any harder to swallow.

He has been a politician for the last couple years, he has been involved with whatever the SHRA governing body is (I think it's called the CSA?).

Yeah, Norman Osborn has been running the THUNDERBOLTS for the CSA since Civil War.

Tony Stark would answer criticism about Osborn originally by claiming he and the other villains were under nanobot control so they would not go berserk. Of course, the Thunderbolts often would maim or even kill rogue heroes anyway. The fact that Ellis wrote of the public adoring those maniacs was part of the flaws of the run.

The logical conundrum is this; if the public can rally behind a former psychopathic sadist who had countless atrocities ascribed to his name merely because of a few pills and one well known act of "heroism", shouldn't they be more considerate of ACTUAL heroes who perform such acts EVERY DAY and are almost never REFORMED SERIAL KILLERS? If a bad guy can be a key Presidential figure simply after one act and "a few months" of running a strike team of monstrous brutes, wouldn't the public be LESS likely to turn on GENUINE heroes on a dime, rather than MORE? I mean, if the bar for heroes is so low, any hero could surpass it.

That is the dilemma I have with Osborn. While I agree that, editorially speaking, it is a good idea to have heroes rally against an obvious villain, especially after years of infighting, I also think the circumstances could have been handled better, perhaps even a different figure than Osborn. Just a few months ago, he tried to assassinate an Atlantian diplomat in broad daylight on LIVE TV. Sure, that was Stark's doing, but how to answer that away; no one knew Stark was behind it. Again, if all it takes to be a U.S. Messiah is one act against a villain on TV, then the Avengers should be DEMIGODS for saving Washington from Kang a while ago. Spider-Man should have long ago been elected Mayor. And so on.

Unless you go with the theory that past Celestial experiments left Marvel humanity with a strong psychological and genetic instinct to loathe any genuine hero while blindly worshiping anyone corrupt or outright wicked.

 

[Franklin Richards]

I think Franklin and Wanda need to get together and say, "No more idiots."

 

[Franklin Richards]

I think Franklin and Wanda need to get together and say, "No more double posts."

 

[The Question]

I don't mind Doom having a master. I mean, Doom is heavily into the mystical. No way he could get any leeway with that without paying respects to a god or two. Honestly, I've always thought that Loki should be Doom's patron god, but that's just me.

 

[Blader5489]

Tony Stark would answer criticism about Osborn originally by claiming he and the other villains were under nanobot control so they would not go berserk. Of course, the Thunderbolts often would maim or even kill rogue heroes anyway. The fact that Ellis wrote of the public adoring those maniacs was part of the flaws of the run.

1) In Ellis' Thunderbolts, the team was constantly spinning their actions to the media and misrepresenting the situation, making things appear in their favor. The only public atrocity the team committed was Venom eating the Steel Spider's arm, which, iirc, did not go down well.

2) Ellis' Thunderbolts run had no flaws.

The logical conundrum is this; if the public can rally behind a former psychopathic sadist who had countless atrocities ascribed to his name merely because of a few pills and one well known act of "heroism", shouldn't they be more considerate of ACTUAL heroes who perform such acts EVERY DAY and are almost never REFORMED SERIAL KILLERS? If a bad guy can be a key Presidential figure simply after one act and "a few months" of running a strike team of monstrous brutes, wouldn't the public be LESS likely to turn on GENUINE heroes on a dime, rather than MORE? I mean, if the bar for heroes is so low, any hero could surpass it.

You're looking at the situation from an objective, omnipresent view. Again, the perceptions that people in the MU have of heroes is constantly spun in the media by people like Norman. It also doesn't help that, because so many heroes operate underground, the public as a whole never sees any of the good that heroes accomplish.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Master? I think not.

 

[Dread]

1) In Ellis' Thunderbolts, the team was constantly spinning their actions to the media and misrepresenting the situation, making things appear in their favor. The only public atrocity the team committed was Venom eating the Steel Spider's arm, which, iirc, did not go down well.

2) Ellis' Thunderbolts run had no flaws.

I wouldn't go that far.

I just can't buy the public buying Venom of all people as a hero. He's wearing the costume of a guy best known for killing a few police officers and generally being a maniac. Sure, he also defended San Francisco for a while, but apparently California will accept any ol' freak as a hero, whether they be symbiotes or mutants. At least they are somewhat consistent about that.

It just seems to me that the public is very quick to believe in reformed villains than genuine heroes.

You're looking at the situation from an objective, omnipresent view. Again, the perceptions that people in the MU have of heroes is constantly spun in the media by people like Norman. It also doesn't help that, because so many heroes operate underground, the public as a whole never sees any of the good that heroes accomplish.

Virtually every hero from the Fantastic Four to Darkhawk has been shown on TV at least once or twice. The Four are among the most public of heroes, even moreso than the Avengers sometimes, and the public turns on them on a dime every few years. The Avengers have saved the world and even Washington D.C. very recently but in the eyes of the public, all of that is meaningless. They just seem more gullible and cynical then even most masses in real life are for dramatic effect, and after a while that gets grating. I'm not asking for DC level slavish hero worship (although I always say, if the public in real life worships actors who pretend to be heroes, why not equally flashy figures who actually are is considered unrealistic), but there should be some happy medium.

The moral of the Marvel Universe is that heroism is masochism. The public will never support you and will cheer as you are shot to death on court steps, cursing your name until your heart stops. They will eagerly believe every wack-job or psychopath and even your greatest and well known acts of heroism will be forgotten within a week. Earth is not worth protecting unless one either is selfless to the point of self torment or insane. Space is where heroes are rewarded. Even cheap warrior knock-off's like the Breakworld aliens appreciate heroism more than anyone on Marvel Earth seems to. And after a few years that kind of moral ceases to be dramatic and simply becomes a bleak drumbeat to me. Even police are rewarded with a paycheck and a "code of blue" with allies; heroes even turn on each other for the most ******ed of reasons.

Maybe if DARK REIGN is a sign of trying to move more towards the center to the extreme, then it may be worth it, even with a few major stretches of belief with Osborn.

 

[Blader5489]

I wouldn't go that far.

I just can't buy the public buying Venom of all people as a hero. He's wearing the costume of a guy best known for killing a few police officers and generally being a maniac. Sure, he also defended San Francisco for a while, but apparently California will accept any ol' freak as a hero, whether they be symbiotes or mutants. At least they are somewhat consistent about that.

It just seems to me that the public is very quick to believe in reformed villains than genuine heroes.

Well...they didn't, really.

Virtually every hero from the Fantastic Four to Darkhawk has been shown on TV at least once or twice. The Four are among the most public of heroes, even moreso than the Avengers sometimes, and the public turns on them on a dime every few years. The Avengers have saved the world and even Washington D.C. very recently but in the eyes of the public, all of that is meaningless. They just seem more gullible and cynical then even most masses in real life are for dramatic effect, and after a while that gets grating. I'm not asking for DC level slavish hero worship (although I always say, if the public in real life worships actors who pretend to be heroes, why not equally flashy figures who actually are is considered unrealistic), but there should be some happy medium.

I'm talking about recently. When you have several heroes rebelling against the law, and their actions resulting in collateral damage and deaths + the Hulk drops in the middle of NY, causes wanton destruction and places the blame on the Illuminati + the Skrull invasion--the end result is a very negative image of superheroes in the public eye.

The moral of the Marvel Universe is that heroism is masochism. The public will never support you and will cheer as you are shot to death on court steps, cursing your name until your heart stops. They will eagerly believe every wack-job or psychopath and even your greatest and well known acts of heroism will be forgotten within a week. Earth is not worth protecting unless one either is selfless to the point of self torment or insane. Space is where heroes are rewarded. Even cheap warrior knock-off's like the Breakworld aliens appreciate heroism more than anyone on Marvel Earth seems to. And after a few years that kind of moral ceases to be dramatic and simply becomes a bleak drumbeat to me. Even police are rewarded with a paycheck and a "code of blue" with allies; heroes even turn on each other for the most ******ed of reasons.

Maybe if DARK REIGN is a sign of trying to move more towards the center to the extreme, then it may be worth it, even with a few major stretches of belief with Osborn.

Then maybe you should just stop reading Marvel comics, if you have such a fundamental disgust with it.

 

[roach]

and while the general public may not know Osborne runs around in purple booties i would hope that Shield and at least the Government kept tabs on heroes and villains.

 

[BrianWilly]

I don't mind Doom having a master. I mean, Doom is heavily into the mystical. No way he could get any leeway with that without paying respects to a god or two. Honestly, I've always thought that Loki should be Doom's patron god, but that's just me.

The problem with this is that Doom sucks as a mystic. No, seriously, he sucks as a mystic. His power is middling. He has never achieved any real mystic power, and every single time he has turned to magicks as a strategy -- every single time, bar none -- it has blown up spectacularly in his own face, mostly literally, through his own faults. And one of these faults that have been explicitly stated is that Doom can't acknowledge any masters; he doesn't get any leeway with magic because he doesn't pay respects to any gods. He will always think that he is better than the forces of magic which he purports to control, which is one of the worst ways to go around using magic. The other is to treat it as just another field of science for him to master, which Doom is also prone to doing, as we can see from the very origin of how he got those original scars.

The point is that Millar is wrong in thinking that Doom would have any masters.

In any case, if people could accept Lex Luthor as president, I don't see why Norman Osborn's elevated status in the public eye is any harder to swallow.

Before his presidency, Luthor was never publicly convicted of any crimes. Never, ever, ever. There was a lot of suspicions and maybe some accusations, but never any proof of any corruption or wrongdoing. None. Because Luthor was a genius intellect and criminal mastermind who covered his tracks so well, absolutely none of the good guys could ever find him legally culpable for anything. The fact that Superman could never conclusively pin anything on him was a source of much stories and frustration for the character for most of his post-Crisis years. The public knew Lex Luthor solely as a successful businessman, inventor, and philanthropist for twenty years of post-Crisis history right up until he got ousted from office, after which he's spent more time in jail than out.

Compare that with Norman Osborn, whose dressing up in a garish Halloween costume and first-degree murder of many, including the daughter of a NY police chief, is and has been public knowledge.

Then maybe you should just stop reading Marvel comics, if you have such a fundamental disgust with it.

That's certainly a reasonable point of view which doesn't address the merits of said fundamental disgust at all.

I read Invincible Iron Man this week. Maria Hill has been fired, she's just a normal civilian now. A team of HAMMER agents, under Osborn's orders and wearing his colors of green and purple, break into Hill's home, shoot at her without provocation, and finally strike her unconscious after she just surrendered to them. There's no reason given for why she is being brought in, they never read her any rights, nor indeed do any of the agents ever actually indicate that they even know what they are bringing her in for. On the plane ride back, two of the agents receive a message from Osborn telling them to murder Hill immediately. They begin to comply, with absolutely no reluctance or distaste or even surprise at being told to execute an unarmed, unresisting prisoner on a plane for reasons that were never given, by a man that they know to have been murderously psychotic not so long ago, all the while wearing the colors he wore when he kidnapped and murdered a teenage girl. (Hill escapes, barely, by crashing the plane.)

And these are normal Marvel universe citizen soldiers. They are not supervillains, they are not mentally unstable, they are not henchmen, they are not foreign gestapo, these are ordinary US citizens with a job that they do, we are given utterly no indication that they are meant to be representative of anything other than an average modern government agent.

So I certainly think it's a defensible claim at the least when Dread, or anyone else, expresses "fundamental disgust" with the world of Marvel comics at the moment. It's absolutely not anything that Marvel hasn't brought on itself and knowingly so.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I agree with you in spirit, but you could fanwank a few explanations for the HAMMER agents' actions. Norman could've hand-picked some like-minded bastards within HAMMER. Whenever you have a major authoritative organization, you're bound to find some people inside who are practically begging to be corrupt or already are corrupt. Two normal citizens who became agents to uphold the law might not murder anyone, but two cracked bastards who went on to become two crooked agents looking to brutalize others with the law as a convenient cover would.