Hey, it’s good to call out problematic stuff, especially in LGBTQ2S+ content because things like the example you gave reinforce s***ty stereotypes about the queer community. The GOP had seized on this “grooming” nonsense, claiming that everyone from regular queer people to DISNEY are out there corrupting and brainwashing children (meanwhile, they have so many sexual predators in their party that it’s insane anyone believes a word they say). So films that reinforce that crap need to be called out for it.
Yeah, agree on all of the above. I'd say there is progress being made though. The TV-show Heartstopper, while featuring underage LGBT+ characters, did great in this regard. No sex scenes, but focusing on smaller moments, touching hands etc.
Had a beach scene, with neither characters shirtless, because underage actors. Even a team on set for them to consult about these kinds of things. Coming of age stories will always be told, but more like that please.
Yeah, agree on all of the above. I'd say there is progress being made though. The TV-show Heartstopper, while featuring underage LGBT+ characters, did great in this regard. No sex scenes, but focusing on smaller moments, touching hands etc.
Had a beach scene, with neither characters shirtless, because underage actors. Even a team on set for them to consult about these kinds of things. Coming of age stories will always be told, but more like that please.
This thread already has just about all the classics and a lot of LGBT+ content that I do really enjoy.
I do have to give the obligatory shout-out to Call Me by Your Name as a movie that I've always found incredibly problematic and that all my LGBT+ friends similarly reject. I still don't get why American audiences flocked to it.
Thankfully this thread once again proved we have a lot of great alternatives. Hope that list will only become longer in the next few years.
Thanks for participating here with us Weather Witch
When I first saw Call Me by Your Name I loved it. I thought the film's craft - from the cinematography to the performances to the writing - were all exemplary. Like you said, I found the power imbalance between a 17 year old and a 24 year old in a romantic relationship to be problematic, but I was willing to overlook that in my estimation of the film because I was under the impression that the story was autobiographical. The author was telling his story, so who was I to judge...
Since seeing it for the first time, new elements have come to light that have made me reassess the film somewhat. I still think it's a magnificent example of the craft that can go into a film with the right creators, but I've since learned that the story was indeed fictional, which is highly problematic. I'm curious as to why the original author made Elio only 17. The age of consent in Canada is 16 so that wouldn't technically be a crime here, but in many US states 17 would still be considered a child.
And even if it isn't a legal crime, taking advantage of someone that young is still a moral crime as far as I'm concerned. A 17 year old simply isn't equipped to deal with a sexual and emotional relationship the same way a 24 year old would be. Plus, upon rewatching the film, the mind games the older Oliver plays with the younger Elio are actually quite disturbing, something I missed the first time around. In no way could this be classified as a healthy relationship by any objective standards...
Also, the allegations against Hammer provide even further disturbing subtext. In all fairness, when I first saw the film, I felt that Hammer was its primary weakness. I've always found him to be incredibly creepy, and these allegations ring very true with him as far as I'm concerned...
Anyway, I've become a bit torn on the film over time. I still think it's a technical masterpiece, but I do concede that the subject matter is problematic for some viewers.
Anyway, I've become a bit torn on the film over time. I still think it's a technical masterpiece, but I do concede that the subject matter is problematic for some viewers.
Thanks Batgirl, really appreciate you sharing! I definitely agree with all of the above. It's a complicated topic, but I think these are really important discussions to be having. It's also quite nice to see someone on the internet admit to changing opinions over time. We don't get a lot of that online. Thank you!
Yeah, it’s good to reassess certain things sometimes. For example, one of my all-time favorite shows is Always Sunny. But… some of the stuff with the trans character (Carmen) early on in the show is really in poor taste and I can’t rewatch those episodes. It’s problematic enough that she’s played by a cisgender actress, but perhaps even more troubling is how the characters refer to her.
Now, it is true that the characters on the show are supposed to be s***ty people and Carmen herself is portrayed as a good, normal person that contrasts with the awful protagonists. Still, that doesn’t make some of the content in those episodes okay. I think the creators of the show realize that now too; I remember reading an interview with either Glenn or Rob and they expressed regret over the way that character was handled. It’s a shame too because there was one episode featuring Carmen that made a great point about the stupidity and hypocrisy of people who were attempting to stop gay marriage. But it was problematic nonetheless.
Thanks Batgirl, really appreciate you sharing! I definitely agree with all of the above. It's a complicated topic, but I think these are really important discussions to be having. It's also quite nice to see someone on the internet admit to changing opinions over time. We don't get a lot of that online. Thank you!
My pleasure WW! Thanks for your thoughtful analysis as well
I feel like Call Me is organically turning into a cult movie for some audiences. It's the kind of film that I feel compelled to revisit from time to time, just so I can luxuriate in the atmosphere and mood the movie successfully creates. But what's stopping me from fully embracing it as such is, once again, the subject matter.
The way Oliver emotionally manipulates the younger man is really quite repulsive when you look at the film objectively. And the way Elio is cold-heartedly and unceremoniously dumped at the end... disgusting.
I hope the (rumored) sequel gets around to addressing some of these issues. At least we can console ourselves with the knowledge that the role of Oliver will almost certainly be recast at this point
Yeah, I’ve been re-reading Sandman after like 20 years and I guess I forgot how much queer content is in it. It was amazingly progressive for its time… it came out back when mainstream comics, TV shows and movies had ZERO queer characters. Good for Neil for being such a loud and proud ally.
Yeah, I’ve been re-reading Sandman after like 20 years and I guess I forgot how much queer content is in it. It was amazingly progressive for its time… it came out back when mainstream comics, TV shows and movies had ZERO queer characters. Good for Neil for being such a loud and proud ally.
Ha! I didn’t know that either. I suppose awesome people tend to hang with other awesome people.
Someone asked Gaiman at Comic Con if Marvel had any plans to adapt 1602. He said he hadn’t heard anything but I would love to see them tackle that comic on a Disney + miniseries. Cast all new actors since some of the heroes’ identities come as a surprise, and just make it happen. It could be amazing.
Someone asked Gaiman at Comic Con if Marvel had any plans to adapt 1602. He said he hadn’t heard anything but I would love to see them tackle that comic on a Disney + miniseries. Cast all new actors since some of the heroes’ identities come as a surprise, and just make it happen. It could be amazing.
A 1602 miniseries would be awesome! I really enjoyed the original series and it would be a great content add for D+
I'm thinking that it would also fit thematically with our discussion of LGBTQ-related content. It would be interesting to include some queer characters and juxtapose the experience of being queer with the experience of being a superhero during that time period.
There would definitely be overlapping parallels in terms of personal experience I would imagine...
A 1602 miniseries would be awesome! I really enjoyed the original series and it would be a great content add for D+
I'm thinking that it would also fit thematically with our discussion of LGBTQ-related content. It would be interesting to include some queer characters and juxtapose the experience of being queer with the experience of being a superhero during that time period.
There would definitely be overlapping parallels in terms of personal experience I would imagine...
Totally agree! Yeah it’s been a while since I read 1602 and I don’t think there were any queer characters in it but it would be cool to see that remedied. Especially given the time period.
Also, three episodes into Sandman and I can report that it’s VERY good and VERY gay hahaha. It’s one of the best comic book adaptations, ever. And given that it’s one of the best comic books ever, that’s fantastic. Highly recommend it.
Definitely… which reminds me of another one - Watchmen (HBO)! Very awesome queer story at the heart of this show. I highly recommend it if you haven’t seen it.
There's no thread for this one so I'll say here that They/Them is disappointingly not going on this list for a movie with a decent premise. Feel like that movie made me homophobic.
Definitely… which reminds me of another one - Watchmen (HBO)! Very awesome queer story at the heart of this show. I highly recommend it if you haven’t seen it.
Yep, this is another show I'm gonna try to get to at some point haha. I've read really good things about it, and the show having a queer storyline makes it even more attractive
There's no thread for this one so I'll say here that They/Them is disappointingly not going on this list for a movie with a decent premise. Feel like that movie made me homophobic.
I knew nothing about They/Them until just now, but sadly the premise doesn't appeal to me. It's a shame because I'm a sucker for slasher cinema, but the idea of a group of LGBTQ kids being picked off one by one by a masked killer while enduring conversion therapy??
Yep, this is another show I'm gonna try to get to at some point haha. I've read really good things about it, and the show having a queer storyline makes it even more attractive
I knew nothing about They/Them until just now, but sadly the premise doesn't appeal to me. It's a shame because I'm a sucker for slasher cinema, but the idea of a group of LGBTQ kids being picked off one by one by a masked killer while enduring conversion therapy??
The kids aren't getting picked off. They aren't even in danger from the killer. And for the majority of it, because it doesn't understand how to build tension, it doesn't feel like they're in danger from the counselors either. One of the issues with the tension building is the deployment of bigotry to try and compensate (which, okay, sure, conversion therapy, not unexpected), but it doesn't really know how to do that either. Like they creep on a trans girl in the shower and then say "you now need to stay with the boys and wear boy clothes," which... yeah. But then they have no problem with the non-binary character they misgender as a man wearing a dress? So it's oddly inconsistent.
Maybe I misread the trailer, as it's been a while, but it led me to expect something more like The Final Girls, something more self-aware and so I thought maybe there was potential. This movie is played completely straight (pun unintended, but taken). And the poltics of it....
The killer turns out to be one of the counselors who had infiltrated the group to kill them. But as a result, the storylines with the kids feel very shapeless as they're kinda irrelevant to any of it. So, the killer had previously attended this camp as a kid and so is angry at the counselors and is now killing them and planning to go cross-country to kill off counselors at every conversion camp they can find. Hero, imo. But the actual supposed hero comes up with this very lib-y "no, I'm strong enough not to retaliate against them." And basically it comes down on "killing homophobes is as bad as trying to electroshock gay people straight."
Speaking of electroshock, that's in this at the very end, but in a way I think manages to really undercut the horrors of conversion therapy. I'm sure we all know the stories and I don't have to recount them, but the way it plays out here has one kid (who I believe is presented initially as non-binary, if memory serves) turn out to be working with the conversion camp leaders to like trick campers into having sex with them so that they then can be given electoshock therapy while watching a screensavers.com slideshow of generic modeling photos. And I think making this some weird 4D chess game makes it come off like this is a fictional thing that doesn't actually happen. It's super over-complicated and silly.
The killer kinda just disappears for a good chunk of the movie (in mask, killing, that is). They kill in the opening, then disappear for like forty-five minutes, kill some minor character that I don't think anyone even acknowledges, and then comes back for the finale.
I also think the general handling of queer characters is kinda bad. None of them are given much of substance and it feels like they're all kinda just there to give their sad backstory and move on. This feels most stark with the trans girl of the group, who it just feels is subjected to humiliation and bigotry for like... nothing? This distinctly feels like a movie written by a 60 year old cis gay dude. At one point, the cast breaks out into P!nk's "****ing Perfect" which apparently every single campgoer has memorized word for word out of absolutely nowhere. Best shot of the movie though is when they're singing in there and then it just hard cuts to Kevin Bacon glaring at the cabin from outside. Super funny, don't think it was supposed to be, but it killed me.
...that got rantier than expected. Kinda got away from me there. Anyway, queer-led horror stuff, I love the Fear Street movies. Watch them a lot, I find them very breezy yet not unsubstantial. Just super easy watches for me and very likable. Wanted to end this more positively, so, love those ones.
The kids aren't getting picked off. They aren't even in danger from the killer. And for the majority of it, because it doesn't understand how to build tension, it doesn't feel like they're in danger from the counselors either. One of the issues with the tension building is the deployment of bigotry to try and compensate (which, okay, sure, conversion therapy, not unexpected), but it doesn't really know how to do that either. Like they creep on a trans girl in the shower and then say "you now need to stay with the boys and wear boy clothes," which... yeah. But then they have no problem with the non-binary character they misgender as a man wearing a dress? So it's oddly inconsistent.
Maybe I misread the trailer, as it's been a while, but it led me to expect something more like The Final Girls, something more self-aware and so I thought maybe there was potential. This movie is played completely straight (pun unintended, but taken). And the poltics of it....
The killer turns out to be one of the counselors who had infiltrated the group to kill them. But as a result, the storylines with the kids feel very shapeless as they're kinda irrelevant to any of it. So, the killer had previously attended this camp as a kid and so is angry at the counselors and is now killing them and planning to go cross-country to kill off counselors at every conversion camp they can find. Hero, imo. But the actual supposed hero comes up with this very lib-y "no, I'm strong enough not to retaliate against them." And basically it comes down on "killing homophobes is as bad as trying to electroshock gay people straight."
Speaking of electroshock, that's in this at the very end, but in a way I think manages to really undercut the horrors of conversion therapy. I'm sure we all know the stories and I don't have to recount them, but the way it plays out here has one kid (who I believe is presented initially as non-binary, if memory serves) turn out to be working with the conversion camp leaders to like trick campers into having sex with them so that they then can be given electoshock therapy while watching a screensavers.com slideshow of generic modeling photos. And I think making this some weird 4D chess game makes it come off like this is a fictional thing that doesn't actually happen. It's super over-complicated and silly.
The killer kinda just disappears for a good chunk of the movie (in mask, killing, that is). They kill in the opening, then disappear for like forty-five minutes, kill some minor character that I don't think anyone even acknowledges, and then comes back for the finale.
I also think the general handling of queer characters is kinda bad. None of them are given much of substance and it feels like they're all kinda just there to give their sad backstory and move on. This feels most stark with the trans girl of the group, who it just feels is subjected to humiliation and bigotry for like... nothing? This distinctly feels like a movie written by a 60 year old cis gay dude. At one point, the cast breaks out into P!nk's "****ing Perfect" which apparently every single campgoer has memorized word for word out of absolutely nowhere. Best shot of the movie though is when they're singing in there and then it just hard cuts to Kevin Bacon glaring at the cabin from outside. Super funny, don't think it was supposed to be, but it killed me.
...that got rantier than expected. Kinda got away from me there. Anyway, queer-led horror stuff, I love the Fear Street movies. Watch them a lot, I find them very breezy yet not unsubstantial. Just super easy watches for me and very likable. Wanted to end this more positively, so, love those ones.
Ah okay, this premise makes way more sense then. The Wiki article made it sound way more homophobic than I guess the creators intended. Thanks for clarifying Snow Queen!
Having said that, it doesn't sound like something I'll get around to anytime soon. I'm already so far behind on Marvel/DC content, never mind extraneous stuff like this. Besides, from what you've said, it doesn't sound like I'll be missing out on much...
The Fear Street movies are definitely on my radar and part of my Netflix list. I'm thinking I might give them a whirl this year, perhaps around Halloween. I've seen all the Michael/Jason/Freddy movies 1000 times each, so I'm in the market for some new blood, groan-inducing pun fully intended
And speaking of seasonal movies with a queer element, I've heard good things about Let it Snow on Netflix. I'm gonna include it in my Holiday Season watchlist this year. I think I read too that they're making a sequel also...
Haha this looks funny AF! Don't know how this stayed off my radar for so long...
Lately I've been on his queer horror movie kick so I'm wanting to check out more of those. Fear Street I'll tackle this Halloween and there's more on Prime that look promising...
Don't forget to watch Hellbent! Never mind the queer angle, it's the best slasher movie I've seen outside of John Carpenter's original Halloween
Haha this looks funny AF! Don't know how this stayed off my radar for so long...
Lately I've been on his queer horror movie kick so I'm wanting to check out more of those. Fear Street I'll tackle this Halloween and there's more on Prime that look promising...
Don't forget to watch Hellbent! Never mind the queer angle, it's the best slasher movie I've seen outside of John Carpenter's original Halloween
Yes, Hellbent is definitely on my list as well. Also, Bodies Bodies Bodies is supposed to be great and centers on a lesbian couple. Plus it has two sexy gay icons in the cast (Amandla Stenberg and Lee Pace). Of course, watching it means also suffering through a movie with Pete Davidson…
Yes, Hellbent is definitely on my list as well. Also, Bodies Bodies Bodies is supposed to be great and centers on a lesbian couple. Plus it has two sexy gay icons in the cast (Amandla Stenberg and Lee Pace). Of course, watching it means also suffering through a movie with Pete Davidson…
I remember watching Halt and Catch Fire and thinking Lee Pace was awesome. I'm sorry to hear that he was accidentally outed though. Perhaps it wasn't his intention to come out that way...
As for Amandla, I've thought she was amazing ever since Everything, Everything. I'll be checking out Bodies Bodies Bodies for sure
I remember watching Halt and Catch Fire and thinking Lee Pace was awesome. I'm sorry to hear that he was accidentally outed though. Perhaps it wasn't his intention to come out that way...
As for Amandla, I've thought she was amazing ever since Everything, Everything. I'll be checking out Bodies Bodies Bodies for sure
Yeah, I think Ian McKellan accidentally outed him? Still, it seems like Pace is doing well, career-wise. I still need to finish Foundation. He was really good in Halt & Catch Fire too, like you said. Would love to see him again play a (preferably gay) superhero at some point; if they ever make an Authority movie, he would make an epic Apollo.
Yeah, I think Ian McKellan accidentally outed him? Still, it seems like Pace is doing well, career-wise. I still need to finish Foundation. He was really good in Halt & Catch Fire too, like you said. Would love to see him again play a (preferably gay) superhero at some point; if they ever make an Authority movie, he would make an epic Apollo.
Still bitter about how the MCU did him so wrong as Ronan. And he would have been a great Northstar, but by the time X-Men gets relaunched, he'll have aged way out of it, unfortuantely.
But yeah, him as Apollo would be PERFECT. And then Luke Evans as Midnighter.
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