FF: Rise of the Silver Surfer DVD

[Hellmistress]

Even if he did motion capture (which as I can see, he didn't) I would still consider him as playing the surfer. Andy Serkis was in one of those motion capture suits for King Kong, and he was credited as playing Kong. This is fox being jerks.

I think I like you ...

HM

 

[The Apatow Crew]

Irrelevant. Why not credit all FIVE of the stars of the film? Just because you don't see his face doesn't mean he didn't do the same work as the rest of them.

HM

If you wanna get technial he would be the sixth one. Victor i think would be ahead of him.


I don't wanna be mean but he's not really a actor according to some people he's more seen as a stuntman or whatever esle you wanna call him.

What i'm saying is he isn't what puts people in the seats. He doesn't have that type of name. i don't know how to explain it but i'm sure you know what i mean.

He's in the movie no matter what so why does it matter so much?


I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't offered the role in the SS solo movie because people get way out of hand over the whole issue of him not being credited which is in the film. Sure its ever LF's name but it's still there.

Are you gonna boycot fox and everything they do if they replace him with a more known name? I'm sure he's a nice guy but there movies are about making money and what they think will sell. Not ot bolster a really unknown name to fame.

 

[Hellmistress]

If you wanna get technial he would be the sixth one. Victor i think would be ahead of him.


I don't wanna be mean but he's not really a actor according to some people he's more seen as a stuntman or whatever esle you wanna call him.

What i'm saying is he isn't what puts people in the seats. He doesn't have that type of name. i don't know how to explain it but i'm sure you know what i mean.

He's in the movie no matter what so why does it matter so much?


I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't offered the role in the SS solo movie because people get way out of hand over the whole issue of him not being credited which is in the film. Sure its ever LF's name but it's still there.

Are you gonna boycot fox and everything they do if they replace him with a more known name? I'm sure he's a nice guy but there movies are about making money and what they think will sell. Not ot bolster a really unknown name to fame.

Okaaaay ... well ... considering that Doug's last film before this one won 3 Oscars (nominated for 6), and without Doug it wouldn't have got there, I wouldn't exactly say he's unknown. Oh, and he learned all of his dialogue in Spanish. Have you seen Pan's Labyrinth? I would suggest you do before calling Doug a 'stuntman,' and check out the DVD behind the scenes extras on that one so that you can see exactly why he's called the 'Lon Chaney of the 21st century.' Empire mag has just chosen him as the second greatest actor under prosthetics in the history of film. (Mr Boris Karloff was the first - no problem with that.)

Personally, much as I would love to see Doug back as the Surfer, I have plenty of other projects of his to be excited about. Plus, they chose Doug because no one in the business can do what he does - which is ACT under all that latex, and be just about the most graceful actor in film today.

As for making money ... considering that this film made less than the last one, and the one performance the critics praised unanimously being Doug's, I guess Fox should maybe take notice of that - because if they'd had any sense they could have ridden on the back of Doug's performances in Pan's Labyrinth and its huge number of awards and used it as a plus for this film. Promotion is everything - and they missed out on that one, something I've never understood. But then, that's the studio suit mentality for you.

HM

 

[chaseter]

No bloopers and the deleted scenes are horrible. My guess is that we will be getting yet another extended edition in 2-3 years. I still enjoyed the movie though.

 

[Batgort]

I just picked up this DVd. i gotta say, not bad. I was actually expecting worse, and of course my wife didn't even want to watch the first one (i had to wait for it to be on HBO for that).

But, in the end, an entertaining movie - and i'll pay 16-18 dollars for it.

 

[Valerie_f4]

I will boycott them.
Rally lets go!

 

[dark_b]

Erm ... Doug was called back at least once, and he did those shots. Especially the wonderful shot where he gathers the power together and kind of 'explodes' - that was Doug. And as for dots ... there's more to that than I can say publicly, but they used those tiny dots for tracking the reflective shine - they are NOT for motion capture - that's a completely different thing. Of course there are completely CG shots - that has never been denied and was done from digital scanning not mo-cap, but Doug did NO motion capture on this film, no matter what is said here. And, if you notice, the BIG green dots are irregularly placed, and are in a scene where the Surfer is either 'powered down' or weakened after resurrecting Sue Storm - IF they're real, then they are merely markers for the CG enhancement - if he's 'powered down' then why need the markers? What hoo-ha.

What you see in this film is Doug Jones in a suit by Spectral Motion, with reflective shine added by WETA. FACT. And that should be acknowledged, and for that not to be done is shabby, to say the least. And considering what ... erm ... 'misinformation' was given out before the film was released about all this guff, then Fox isn't exactly .. ah, how can I put this politely ... generous with the facts?

HM

HM i respect you. i really do. you are a big doug fan. fact is that fox did nothing for doug when it comes to silver surfer promotion. this is pathetic. but now you went to far my friend.
IMO you know nothing about CGI and how those thinkgs are made and this is why you wrotte this. again no offense this is just my opinion. i could be wrong. there is a big chance that i am wrong.

so lets start ok? the dots. first doug jones didnt do motion capture. OK we get it.........we get it. now . motion capture is really old. it was in times where teh CGI was not so advanced. TODAY they can trace the whole body motion and copy this on the coputer. why did they used those dots? so that they could copy 100% the same SS movement on the computer- why did they do this? becase of the CGI reflection.l here we agree HM. you have to understand that the angle,perspective and body movement of the CGI SS must be 100% the same as of doug on the set. why?
WHY? so that the refelction who was added later in post production FITS on dougs body.
go on the official sony imageworks site. i wont post all links again because it pointless. there you will find a video where they are showing tophers grace transformation to venom. you can see in that video that teh CGI artist copyed 100% the same movement of topher grace on the set without dots. why? so that they could then copy the venom symbiote and teh venom body suit whick was later added. then in the last part they added the shadows. and in the movie you see the real topher grace transforming to venom. and it look real. but this all was done without dots.

so again HM. doug didnt do motion capture because it was not nedded. they cna copy and trace body movement with todays computer without dots and without motion capture.

and for the last part. you wrotte:
'' What you see in this film is Doug Jones in a suit by Spectral Motion, with reflective shine added by WETA. FACT.''
writting fact is a little to much IMO. i dont think you are lying. you are just a big fan of doug. and what proves is your post. you wrotte tha ttehre were no dots and when he posted screencaps you started to make stuff up. you are a big fan i get it. but please dont writte that it is a fact that what we see in hte movie is doug in the suit with a reflective shine added. again go on google and read everything about silve. read what characteristic silver has. silver reflects everything. its like a mirror.

if you really want to proove me wrong stop writting that he didnt have donts....then days later changing your story. if you want to proove that i am wrong start explaining me how can you add reflection to a latex suit and keeping the the actor on screen. you can go in the SS doug jones thread and read everything i said. it would also help if you would stop ignoring my posts and pics that i posted.

again no offense but please start showing pics and start explaining and i will admit that i am wrong.

peace.

 

[dark_b]

edit

 

[Hellmistress]

HM i respect you. i really do. you are a big doug fan. fact is that fox did nothing for doug when it comes to silver surfer promotion. this is pathetic. but now you went to far my friend.
IMO you know nothing about CGI and how those thinkgs are made and this is why you wrotte this. again no offense this is just my opinion. i could be wrong. there is a big chance that i am wrong.

so lets start ok? the dots. first doug jones didnt do motion capture. OK we get it.........we get it. now . motion capture is really old. it was in times where teh CGI was not so advanced. TODAY they can trace the whole body motion and copy this on the coputer. why did they used those dots? so that they could copy 100% the same SS movement on the computer- why did they do this? becase of the CGI reflection.l here we agree HM. you have to understand that the angle,perspective and body movement of the CGI SS must be 100% the same as of doug on the set. why?
WHY? so that the refelction who was added later in post production FITS on dougs body.
go on the official sony imageworks site. i wont post all links again because it pointless. there you will find a video where they are showing tophers grace transformation to venom. you can see in that video that teh CGI artist copyed 100% the same movement of topher grace on the set without dots. why? so that they could then copy the venom symbiote and teh venom body suit whick was later added. then in the last part they added the shadows. and in the movie you see the real topher grace transforming to venom. and it look real. but this all was done without dots.

so again HM. doug didnt do motion capture because it was not nedded. they cna copy and trace body movement with todays computer without dots and without motion capture.

and for the last part. you wrotte:
'' What you see in this film is Doug Jones in a suit by Spectral Motion, with reflective shine added by WETA. FACT.''
writting fact is a little to much IMO. i dont think you are lying. you are just a big fan of doug. and what proves is your post. you wrotte tha ttehre were no dots and when he posted screencaps you started to make stuff up. you are a big fan i get it. but please dont writte that it is a fact that what we see in hte movie is doug in the suit with a reflective shine added. again go on google and read everything about silve. read what characteristic silver has. silver reflects everything. its like a mirror.

if you really want to proove me wrong stop writting that he didnt have donts....then days later changing your story. if you want to proove that i am wrong start explaining me how can you add reflection to a latex suit and keeping the the actor on screen. you can go in the SS doug jones thread and read everything i said. it would also help if you would stop ignoring my posts and pics that i posted.

again no offense but please start showing pics and start explaining and i will admit that i am wrong.

peace.

I've never ignored you, and I certainly respect your opinion. But I write FACT because I KNOW HOW IT WAS DONE. I don't need to make up a thing, dear heart. I'm dubious about at least one of those pictures, but I'm not going to argue - and your description of how you think it was done is incorrect. Still, as I have said so many times before, it is moot. It's done, it's dusted - it's all hoo ha, but that's the way Fox wishes to play it. Fine. I can't post pics because I don't have any - and by the way, the suits were destroyed after the film was finished. So, I guess I'm buggered, huh.

But ...

The Silver Surfer was played by Doug Jones in suits designed by Spectral Motion, and later enhanced by WETA - no ... NO ... motion capture. What you see is 90% Doug in a suit, 10% WETA enhancement. FACT.

So ... peace, man. We can agree to disagree if you wish, but I know the facts and I stand by them. I'm not going to lie for anyone, especially Fox, and I haven't from the beginning. And I will continue to take the flack if need be. Somebody has to do it!

HM

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I think just about everybody here has a huge amount of respect for what Doug added to the character.

He did a job, he got paid, he got credit, he was shown in and out of the suit on the special features on the DVD and mentioned by name. I don't feel the need to have an exact break-down and accounting regarding how much was him and how much was WETA.

. . . and let's face it, while the character may have been in the title, he had fewer lines (even if they had used Doug's voice) and less screen time than Kerry Washington or Andre Braugher (maybe close to Kerry W.).

Doug did what everyone of us do every day. He did a job and got paid for it. It might be nice for the higher ups to tell everyone just how improtant I am to the company every time they meet them . . . but they don't, and I won't complain as long as I'm getting paid.

There are hundreds of very talented people who worked 14 hour shifts on this project for less money and less credit than Doug got.

 

[Hellmistress]

I think just about everybody here has a huge amount of respect for what Doug added to the character.

He did a job, he got paid, he got credit, he was shown in and out of the suit on the special features on the DVD and mentioned by name. I don't feel the need to have an exact break-down and accounting regarding how much was him and how much was WETA.

. . . and let's face it, while the character may have been in the title, he had fewer lines (even if they had used Doug's voice) and less screen time than Kerry Washington or Andre Braugher (maybe close to Kerry W.).

Doug did what everyone of us do every day. He did a job and got paid for it. It might be nice for the higher ups to tell everyone just how improtant I am to the company every time they meet them . . . but they don't, and I won't complain as long as I'm getting paid.

There are hundreds of very talented people who worked 14 hour shifts on this project for less money and less credit than Doug got.

Hmmm ... ya think? Not that many, I betcha. And nobody's misrepresenting their work.

I just don't like lies, that's all. It offends my sense of justice - I'm old-fashioned that way. And just because other people in this industry don't have much in the way of morals, that doesn't mean I have to be the same. You know the ol' adage ... truth, justice and the ... well, you know the line. Yes, I'm a realist - I understand extremely well how the business works, and how it treats people, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. So forgive me if I bristle with righteous indignation - I would do the same for Mr. Fishburne if he was being treated in such a manner, and I also couldn't abide inaccuracies over Michael's suit, how it was made and its weight, if you remember. I thought Spectral did a fantastic job, given the remit they had. And when this board is in uproar over something as trivial as Ben's eyebrows, then I really don't think my velvet-gloved pit-bull approach to this little discussion is much in comparison.

HM

 

[dark_b]

I've never ignored you, and I certainly respect your opinion. But I write FACT because I KNOW HOW IT WAS DONE. I don't need to make up a thing, dear heart. I'm dubious about at least one of those pictures, but I'm not going to argue - and your description of how you think it was done is incorrect. Still, as I have said so many times before, it is moot. It's done, it's dusted - it's all hoo ha, but that's the way Fox wishes to play it. Fine. I can't post pics because I don't have any - and by the way, the suits were destroyed after the film was finished. So, I guess I'm buggered, huh.

But ...

The Silver Surfer was played by Doug Jones in suits designed by Spectral Motion, and later enhanced by WETA - no ... NO ... motion capture. What you see is 90% Doug in a suit, 10% WETA enhancement. FACT.

So ... peace, man. We can agree to disagree if you wish, but I know the facts and I stand by them. I'm not going to lie for anyone, especially Fox, and I haven't from the beginning. And I will continue to take the flack if need be. Somebody has to do it!

HM

we all knwo that. we all know that.........................we all knoooooooooooow that t:

 

[Hellmistress]

we all knwo that. we all know that.........................we all knoooooooooooow that t:

I think I would have to have that tattoed on my butt - it would give me a chance to moon the bejeebers out of Fox ... D

HM

 

[Iron Maiden]

HM, have you even looked at the DVD extras? I get it that you are a big Doug Jones fan but I think it clouds your perception. Darkb explanation is longer but that is pretty much what the Special Effects VP says at Fox. The 100% performance by Doug is when he is the "Tarnished Silver Surfer". The rest was done by the CGI artists using Doug as a point of reference. For example, in the shot where the Surfer grabs Torch by the throat, Doug's arm was completely replaced by the CG artist. They also said the scene with Galactus was added late in post production and is all CG. Unless you were there at Fox watching over everyone's shoulder in post production I really don't see how you as an non professional can know shot for shot what was done by who. For myself, I tend to believe the tech supervisor who was actually there. Doug himself may not even know where the digi-double comes into play. In the first film, Ioan was completely fooled by a CG construct that replaced him on the catwalk when he was dodging Doom's blasts.

Finally, I think calling Doug Jones the 21st century Lon Chaney does a disservice to Lon Chaney. I am a fan of his work and he did far more than Doug. I'm sure you know that Lon Chaney did all his makeup in the non-union days. He created the frightening visage of the "Phantom of the Opera", and the frightening vampire of "London After Midnight" along with the Quasimodo in "Hunchback of Notre Dame", often under far worse conditions. He was also a bit of a contortionist, as demonstrated in "The Unholy Three". Doug is good at what he does but the comparsion to Chaney is not a good one... Karloff, yes but not Lon Chaney.

 

[Hellmistress]

HM, have you even looked at the DVD extras? I get it that you are a big Doug Jones fan but I think it clouds your perception. Darkb explanation is longer but that is pretty much what the Special Effects VP says at Fox. The 100% performance by Doug is when he is the "Tarnished Silver Surfer". The rest was done by the CGI artists using Doug as a point of reference. For example, in the shot where the Surfer grabs Torch by the throat, Doug's arm was completely replaced by the CG artist. They also said the scene with Galactus was added late in post production and is all CG. Unless you were there at Fox watching over everyone's shouler in post production I really don't see how you as an non professional can know shot for shot what was done by who. For myself, I tend to believe the tech supervisor who was actually there. Doug himself may not even know where the digi-double comes into play. In the first film, Ioan was completely fooled by a CG construct that replaced him on the catwalk when he was dodging Doom's blasts.

Tommyrot. Doug did a lot of the Galactus battle sequence. And no, Doug was not used as a point of reference. Honestly - do you believe everything they tell you? Tsk And I've never, NEVER denied that CG was part and parcel of the role, and that some sequences were entirely CG - that's common knowledge, and you can check my previous posts by all means. However, this hoo-ha that Doug was completely replaced by CG for his performance as the Surfer is tosh and balderdash.

Finally, I think calling Doug Jones the 21st century Lon Chaney does a disservice to Lon Chaney. I am a fan of his work and he did far more than Doug. I'm sure you know that Lon Chaney did all his makeup in the non-union days. He created the frightening visage of the "Phantom of the Opera", and the frightening vampire of "London After Midnight" along with the Quasimodo in "Hunchback of Notre Dame", often under far worse conditions. He was also a bit of a contortionist, as demonstrated in "The Unholy Three". Doug is good at what he does but the comparsion to Chaney is not a good one... Karloff, yes but not Lon Chaney.

I know a great deal about Lon Chaney, and yes, I know what he put himself through for his art - such as inserting wires under his eyelids in Phantom, and so on and so forth. The man was a genius, and put himself through all sorts of torture. He was using makeup that was incredibly toxic, and terribly dangerous, and was such an innovative artist. Incidentally, Doug is also a contortionist. Did you know that?

However, I think what the comparison is about is the ability to work through heavy makeup, and actually emote and supply a performance, not about the makeup content itself. Chaney was very good - and Doug is very humbled by the comparison. But I would agree that the comparison isn't a bad one, and it is a comparison made by film historians and critics, not by Doug himself.

HM

 

[Iron Maiden]

Tommyrot. Doug did a lot of the Galactus battle sequence. And no, Doug was not used as a point of reference. Honestly - do you believe everything they tell you? Tsk And I've never, NEVER denied that CG was part and parcel of the role, and that some sequences were entirely CG - that's common knowledge, and you can check my previous posts by all means. However, this hoo-ha that Doug was completely replaced by CG for his performance as the Surfer is tosh and balderdash.

Sorry, but until you can provide more proof than what was on the DVD, I really have to take what you say as hearsay. I take a lot of your reportage with a grain of salt since you are mainly here to promote Doug. Nothing wrong with that but until I get more something more than just your word I will accept the professionals' over yours. By the way, you didn't say if you had the DVD....I'd like to know if you have seen the extras.

I know a great deal about Lon Chaney, and yes, I know what he put himself through for his art - such as inserting wires under his eyelids in Phantom, and so on and so forth. The man was a genius, and put himself through all sorts of torture. He was using makeup that was incredibly toxic, and terribly dangerous, and was such an innovative artist. Incidentally, Doug is also a contortionist. Did you know that?

Well, that's why I put it in there, anticipating your adding that...and you're preaching to the choir about Chaney's travails. I've seen a lot of his major films also.

However, I think what the comparison is about is the ability to work through heavy makeup, and actually emote and supply a performance, not about the makeup content itself. Chaney was very good - and Doug is very humbled by the comparison. But I would agree that the comparison isn't a bad one, and it is a comparison made by film historians and critics, not by Doug himself.

HM

Have to disagree.... the comparsion to Karloff is more apt since Doug is not a costume/makeup artist. Chaney was a much bigger star in his era than Doug is, who is more of a niche performer. Nothing bad about that.

 

[Hellmistress]

Sorry, but until you can provide more proof than what was on the DVD, I really have to take what you say as hearsay. I take a lot of your reportage with a grain of salt since you are mainly here to promote Doug. Nothing wrong with that but until I get more something more than just your word I will accept the professionals' over yours. By the way, you didn't say if you had the DVD....I'd like to know if you have seen the extras.

Well, I go by the professional actor who played the role - and yes, I saw the extras 2 days ago, amidst snorts of derision. Still, it was interesting.

HM

 

[Hellmistress]

Have to disagree.... the comparsion to Karloff is more apt since Doug is not a costume/makeup artist. Chaney was a much bigger star in his era than Doug is, who is more of a niche performer. Nothing bad about that.

That's fine - in that case I would agree with you. Interestingly, Karloff was No 1 on the Empire list, and Chaney was 4th, with Doug in second place.

HM

 

[Iron Maiden]

....yet as I mentioned earlier, even Ioan didn't know he was "replaced" in a shot. Unless you get a shot by shot breakdown by Doug, then it's not possible for you to say for sure. The suit itself is much too stiff to convey a lot of the muscle movement, example the rippling of the muscles in the back seen on the glacier.

So while a lot of the performance is Doug's, the replacement in post production may be a lot more than you are willing to admit. So when did Doug report back to do the late addition of the Galactus sequence by the way?

 

[Hellmistress]

....yet as I mentioned earlier, even Ioan didn't know he was "replaced" in a shot. Unless you get a shot by shot breakdown by Doug, then it's not possible for you to say for sure. The suit itself is much too stiff to convey a lot of the muscle movement, example the rippling of the muscles in the back seen on the glacier.

So while a lot of the performance is Doug's, the replacement in post production may be a lot more than you are willing to admit. So when did Doug report back to do the late addition of the Galactus sequence by the way?

Doug finished filming his main hitch in December 2006, and went back to Vancouver at the end of March/beginning of April 2007.

Just an interesting thought, which your comments brought up - considering that Fox denied the suit ever existed for nigh on a year (which I told you guys about and I was roundly castigated for saying such a thing - after all, the director and producers and Fox said otherwise saying Doug was doing motion capture and what did I know - and waddya know - it turned out there WAS a suit and Doug DIDN'T do mo-cap), and when it WAS apparent it was a suit, then WETA was enhancing it - not just my words, but Fox's. Now then, if all of a sudden it's some sort of ref-cap, then what happened to WETA's state of the art 'enhancement' technique? Just a thought. But I'll certainly conceed you have a point. But you also have to conceed that dotty ol' HM was right about the suit when everyone else was saying I was a crazy fan-girl. Just like they are now.

I got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals.

HM

 

[Tony Stark]

You guys are freaking amazing. I bet Doug Jones would be embarassed by what half the people in here wrote.

The Surfer was not the creation of one person. Doug was a part of creating the character, but so are hundreds of other effects artists and guys you'd never know.

Willie is right, Doug was hired for a job and he did it. He did it very well and there's not one person who made the movie who doesn't appreciate what he did.

You all need to grow the hell up.

 

[Hellmistress]

You guys are freaking amazing. I bet Doug Jones would be embarassed by what half the people in here wrote.

The Surfer was not the creation of one person. Doug was a part of creating the character, but so are hundreds of other effects artists and guys you'd never know.

Willie is right, Doug was hired for a job and he did it. He did it very well and there's not one person who made the movie who doesn't appreciate what he did.

You all need to grow the hell up.

And I have always championed Spectral Motion's brilliant creation and the wonderful folks who created the makeup too - it took nearly three hours to get Doug ready for the day.

But Tony's right - this is a pointless argument, and in the long run it ain't going to matter whatever which way, and for that I unreservedly apologise for any disruption.

I shall say no more.

HM

 

[SPIDER-MAN-ROX]

Could someone take some pictures of the hot chicks that Reed Richards is dancing with during his bachelor party? Preferably the one he refered to as Candie, she was hot, hot, hot,.

 

[dark_b]

And I have always championed Spectral Motion's brilliant creation and the wonderful folks who created the makeup too - it took nearly three hours to get Doug ready for the day.

But Tony's right - this is a pointless argument, and in the long run it ain't going to matter whatever which way, and for that I unreservedly apologise for any disruption.

I shall say no more.

HM

doug was in 10 times more complex and better suits. but for SS they didnt need something special. the suit just had ot have the SS body shape and face plus they added a big shine(specular) on hte suit.
doug was in mooooooooooooore complex suits in hes life.

not saying that SS suit was bad. but it was not something groundbreaking.

 

[Retroman]

Shouldn't we be hearing what kind of sales the dvd has done around now?

Oh and Fox still haven't announced a release date for the dvd over here yet.What's keeping them?