General Motors

[Schlosser85]

So GM has been seeking a bailout from the federal government akin to what Wall Street is receiving in the wake of multi-million dollar losses, arguing that their success is crucial to keeping American jobs.

But GM just opened a $300 million factory....in Russia.

They claim the US government must bail them out financially to keep American jobs, as they are opening a several hundred million dollar factory in Russia. American workers aren't getting those jobs.

Obviously GM doesn't need a bailout from the US government if it is spending hundreds of millions of dollars in another country, and obviously GM's survival has nothing to do with the well-being of American workers if it's choosing to give jobs to foreign labor.

 

[Malice]

So GM has been seeking a bailout from the federal government akin to what Wall Street is receiving in the wake of multi-million dollar losses, arguing that their success is crucial to keeping American jobs.

But GM just opened a $300 million factory....in Russia.

They claim the US government must bail them out financially to keep American jobs, as they are opening a several hundred million dollar factory in Russia. American workers aren't getting those jobs.

Obviously GM doesn't need a bailout from the US government if it is spending hundreds of millions of dollars in another country, and obviously GM's survival has nothing to do with the well-being of American workers if it's choosing to give jobs to foreign labor.

What they need to do, is approach the UAW Union and simply say....sorry...we can't pay anymore.

Unions are killing us....which is the absolute truth.

 

[Schlosser85]

Unions are killing us....which is the absolute truth.

Well K-Mart laid my dad and a bunch of other people off....and then turned around and hired a batch of new people. They're supposed to have to call back the old employees they laid off....but of course they don't have to pay the new hires as much as the veterans.

What did the union my dad pays into do about this? Not a thing.

 

[Malice]

Well K-Mart laid my dad and a bunch of other people off....and then turned around and hired a batch of new people. They're supposed to have to call back the old employees they laid off....but of course they don't have to pay the new hires as much as the veterans.

What did the union my dad pays into do about this? Not a thing.

Sorry to hear it....
Unions served their purpose....the workers were given a voice...
Now, the unions from what I see, is just a hinderence now.

The medical expenses GM is having to pay for retired former employees is costing them I think it was 6 BILLION every year or 3 months...dont remember.

 

[Bathead]

Yes, sadly most (not all) modern-day unions are not quite the same as they were way back when they actually helped to keep big business from screwing over their employees.

 

[Matt]

I actually am a big union supporter. But they need to get back to their roots.

Now-a-days they are little more than a political arm of the Democratic Party.

 

[SuBe]

If we had a FairTax, GM and the auto-Industry wouldn't be seeking a Bailout, because the could sell more product, with no worries of Tax Consequence. They Wouldn't have the Tax Burden, the Burden of Cost in Tax Preperation. The Product would be cheaper to produce because they wouldn't have the Tax Component. They would be able to be more Competitive in the World Market. The Employees would be able to Save their Money instead of paying out nearly 1/3rd in Taxes before they even see their Pay Check.

Everyone knows American Workers are the most skilled and most productive in the world, but how are they expected to keep jobs here with the insane tax code we have? It's the Tax Code that forcing jobs away.

 

[Motown Marvel]

despite everything the big three could be criticised for, and despite everything they may or may not have been able to do to have avoided this....fact of the matter is, it is not an option to let the domestic auto industries fail. it's just something that cannot happen.

 

[Malice]

despite everything the big three could be criticised for, and despite everything they may or may not have been able to do to have avoided this....fact of the matter is, it is not an option to let the domestic auto industries fail. it's just something that cannot happen.

I believe we could let them fail.
They are no different than any other company.
They employ a crap load of people....just like other companies.

 

[Malice]

Bailing them out is tantamount to bailing out other companies that Natural Selection picked to go under. That is the big problem I have with all these bailouts...they screwed it up....the company must pay.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

If we had a FairTax, GM and the auto-Industry wouldn't be seeking a Bailout, because the could sell more product, with no worries of Tax Consequence. They Wouldn't have the Tax Burden, the Burden of Cost in Tax Preperation. The Product would be cheaper to produce because they wouldn't have the Tax Component. They would be able to be more Competitive in the World Market. The Employees would be able to Save their Money instead of paying out nearly 1/3rd in Taxes before they even see their Pay Check.

Everyone knows American Workers are the most skilled and most productive in the world, but how are they expected to keep jobs here with the insane tax code we have? It's the Tax Code that forcing jobs away.

While I do support a system of Fair tax, I think the tax angle is a very small part of the problem here. Take this from someone who has Michigan roots and has many family members that still work in the offices and plants of the Big 3. The biggest problem here is once again, the U.S. Auto Industry is slow to adapt. They're not a pro-active industry. They're EXTREMELY reactive to what people want. People arent not buying American cars because their retail price is too much, they arent buying them because their residual costs, namely fuel, are extremely high.

The Big 3 sold their souls to the Big Oil companies in the late 1990's and put most of their eggs in the SUV basket when signs of pending issues with oil were all over the place. Once the war in Iraq started and gas prices started slowly climbing, they started getting kicked in the teeth because their vehicles were only up to the bare minimum in fuel efficiency standards at the behest of the oil industry,

The sad part is that they've had better technoclogy for some time, and just shelved it. GM marketed and sold an electric car in the late 90's out on the West Coast, but it was quickly quashed when their partners in the Oil Industry changed their mind once they saw the writing on the wall after the thing had an insane waiting list of backorders. GM pulled the cars off the road (they only leased them to people), they were summarily destroyed, and nothing was ever done from a developmental standpoint to improve what they had created.

Fast forward a decade later, now gas is almost 3 times more expensive than it was then, and the public has gone away form the gas guzzlers to the more effiicient smaller cars from foreign makers, and Detroit is reeling, trying to scramble to even launch a decent Hybrid vehicle. Toyota and their ilk saw this coming. They planned for it. They have hybrids on the market already and have electric and fuel-cell vehicles on their way. The Big 3 wouldnt need a bailout if they had some foresight and didnt sell their souls to Big Oil a decade ago.

 

[SuBe]

Bailing them out is tantamount to bailing out other companies that Natural Selection picked to go under. That is the big problem I have with all these bailouts...they screwed it up....the company must pay.

If the Government got out of the way, we wouldn't be in this mess.

 

[Paradoxium]

despite everything the big three could be criticised for, and despite everything they may or may not have been able to do to have avoided this....fact of the matter is, it is not an option to let the domestic auto industries fail. it's just something that cannot happen.

Yes it can. This is the real fear mongering. 20-30 years ago, Chrysler got a bailout. Look at where that got us today; in need of yet another bailout. American cars are a POS, it's arrogance allowed the Japanese alternatives get as powerful as it is today.

People seem to forget that just because a company goes down under, it doesn't mean new competition will not arise out of the old and new parts. A huge underestimation of what entrepreneurs are capable of, and a huge overestimation of piss poor management changing into something that will work.

 

[Malice]

You are right Hulk....they did it to themselves...they should pay...
I hate to say that because of all the great people that work there...

 

[Malice]

If the american cars tanked....I would be willing to bet, you would see another american car company come from the ashes with a few versions of the hybid or some sort of green car.

 

[Motown Marvel]

Yes it can. This is the real fear mongering. 20-30 years ago, Chrysler got a bailout. Look at where that got us today; in need of yet another bailout. American cars are a POS, it's arrogance allowed the Japanese alternatives get as powerful as it is today.

People seem to forget that just because a company goes down under, it doesn't mean new competition will not arise out of the old and new parts. A huge underestimation of what entrepreneurs are capable of, and a huge overestimation of piss poor management changing into something that will work.

seriously, allowing the big three to fail is a death sentence for michigan. we already have the worst economy in the country, and we are entirely dependant on the auto industry. if you let these companies fail, then you mind as well just bend this state over and rape it in the a$$. im not saying a government bailout is the answer, but something needs to be done to ensure the companies dont fail. and if they are given bailout money, then that should come with strict oversight to ensure this doesnt need to happen again.

 

[Paradoxium]

seriously, allowing the big three to fail is a death sentence for michigan. we already have the worst economy in the country, and we are entirely dependant on the auto industry. if you let these companies fail, then you mind as well just bend this state over and rape it in the a$$. im not saying a government bailout is the answer, but something needs to be done to ensure the companies dont fail. and if they are given bailout money, then that should come with strict oversight to ensure this doesnt need to happen again.

Strict oversight won't do ****. You assume the government knows how to manage auto companies which is an enormous assumption and overestimation.

This is the exact same thing that happened with the bank bailout. They wanted liquidity, instead banks are not loaning but hoarding money and buying out small banks. Everyone seem to see this coming except for the government. People keep underestimating the laws of unintended consequences and overestimating the abilities of the government.

They are failing because of inept company philosophies and piss poor management. This is equivalent to fat guy trying to lose weight and become an athlete. The government is Dr. Phil, who is trying to teach the fat guy how to become an athlete. The only way to solve this is for them turn around internally, OR to suffer in the short term to allow someone with the right mind (but hindered in the past) to restart everything. It has to come from inside. This is the cold hard truth, and plain old common sense.

 

[SuBe]

Strict oversight won't do ****. You assume the government knows how to manage auto companies which is an enormous assumption and overestimation.

This is the exact same thing that happened with the bank bailout. They wanted liquidity, instead banks are not loaning but hoarding money and buying out small banks. Everyone seem to see this coming except for the government. People keep underestimating the laws of unintended consequences and overestimating the abilities of the government.

They are failing because of inept company philosophies and piss poor management. This is equivalent to fat guy trying to lose weight and become an athlete. The government is Dr. Phil, who is trying to teach the fat guy how to become an athlete. The only way to solve this is for them turn around internally, OR to suffer in the short term to allow someone with the right mind (but hindered in the past) to restart everything. It has to come from inside. This is the cold hard truth, and plain old common sense.

I agree.

 

[Paradoxium]

My biggest point is: it is screwed already Motown. Everything you said would happen has been set in motion a long time. It is going to happen one way or another. The point is accept it and attack it head on to find a real solution. Or find some temporary fix that does not solve the inevitable.

This is not doom and gloom. This is about doing the right and unpopular things for the future. A pessimistic would never say such a thing.

 

[SuBe]

I just say, with the FairTax, they wouldn't be forced to pump so much money to the Federal Government, giving them more to use for Research and Development, they could reduce the prices of their Products (while keeping the same margins), sell more product (increasing their market share) and guarentee the companies won't fail. How many billions of dollars do the Auto-Industry give to the Government? That money can be put to better use.

Corporatation don't pay taxes anyway, the money they pass on, come directly from the Consumer.

 

[Motown Marvel]

Strict oversight won't do ****. You assume the government knows how to manage auto companies which is an enormous assumption and overestimation.

This is the exact same thing that happened with the bank bailout. They wanted liquidity, instead banks are not loaning but hoarding money and buying out small banks. Everyone seem to see this coming except for the government. People keep underestimating the laws of unintended consequences and overestimating the abilities of the government.

They are failing because of inept company philosophies and piss poor management. This is equivalent to fat guy trying to lose weight and become an athlete. The government is Dr. Phil, who is trying to teach the fat guy how to become an athlete. The only way to solve this is for them turn around internally, OR to suffer in the short term to allow someone with the right mind (but hindered in the past) to restart everything. It has to come from inside. This is the cold hard truth, and plain old common sense.

i dont necessarily disagree with any of this. but my conern lies with the people of michigan and detroit, who through not fault of their own, are going to be royally screwed by epic proportions if these companies fail.

My biggest point is: it is screwed already Motown. Everything you said would happen has been set in motion a long time. It is going to happen one way or another. The point is accept it and attack it head on to find a real solution. Or find some temporary fix that does not solve the inevitable.

This is not doom and gloom. This is about doing the right and unpopular things for the future. A pessimistic would never say such a thing.

im not yet prepared to believe that there is nothing that can be done to prevent this or to stop the bleeding. i dont know what it would take to make me believe that, or maybe i am in denial, i dunno. i just see everyday how hard it is in detroit, especially with the state of our economy, and the idea of it getting worse....its just not acceptable to me, and to everyone in this state who is already suffering greatly.

 

[Paradoxium]

i dont necessarily disagree with any of this. but my conern lies with the people of michigan and detroit, who through not fault of their own, are going to be royally screwed by epic proportions if these companies fail.


im not yet prepared to believe that there is nothing that can be done to prevent this or to stop the bleeding. i dont know what it would take to make me believe that, or maybe i am in denial, i dunno. i just see everyday how hard it is in detroit, especially with the state of our economy, and the idea of it getting worse....its just not acceptable to me, and to everyone in this state who is already suffering greatly.

I am going to come across as a cold and calculating bastard but tough ****. Reality has dealt them a card and they have to deal with it. Reality is uncompromising, unfair and amoral. Self denial and self pity won't solve the problems reality presents, action does.

Any attempts at a short term fix is like a drug, you will feel good in the short term, but you are not dealing with the root causes and long term consequences. It's better to suffer now to ensure a brighter future. I think it was back in the economy thread and Anita made an analogy - instead of feeding a poor and unhealthy plant, one ought to let it die off, then plant and nourish a healthy one. Along those lines.

As that cliche goes, you need to take a step back to move two steps forward.

 

[BlackLantern]

Sorry to hear it....
Unions served their purpose....the workers were given a voice...
Now, the unions from what I see, is just a hinderence now.

The medical expenses GM is having to pay for retired former employees is costing them I think it was 6 BILLION every year or 3 months...dont remember.

Unions, as they exist today, are outdated.....My uncle works for Sikorsky here in CT, has for 29 years now as an executive and they have had more problems with the union than anything else

 

[Malice]

My thoughts for the car company.

1) Break ties with the UAW...simply tell them, this happens, or we go under, simple as that. That will free up a bunch of what capital they have left...

2) Close down un-needed production.

3) Close down large car lots and simply have them as basic enterprise rent-a-car lots. A person that wants to buy a car, walks in and sits at a computer. They pick the car on the computer with all the bells and whistles.
They have a few cars on the lot to allow test driving, but that is it. A lot the size of a small strip center at most. No need to pay huge prices on land...keeping stock...insurance, you name it. Two weeks later, your car arrives.

4) New Management, bring in someone who is in manufacturing, but not the auto industry, but has an understanding of the auto-industry.

 

[Malice]

Paradox is right.

If the govt gives the car manufacturers money...they wont change...and will be looking for a handout again. They need to feel the whip and learn to roll with the punches.

I sympathize, I can only imagine what Michigan is feeling....