Comics I Think I'm Retiring From Spider-man

[Dangerous]

I never said the issues weren't serious. In 300 issues we dealt with crime wars, drug wars, the failure to stop drugs, racism, death of Gwen Stacy, Jean DeWolff murdered by a serial killer, the eihics of letting Kingpin stay in power, Peter ruining the self-image Deborah Whitman had of herself and almsot driving her crazy, almost helping Betty Brant cheat on her husband Ned, Betty cheating on Ned with Flash, Falsh a disillusioned "war hero," Peter getting married, Peter having a "**** buddy" with Black Cat (albeit she was not introduced until the 190s and was originally a villain, then a lover and before he got married DeFalco turned her into a "**** buddy") etc.

I'm just saying the dialogue could be stilted as it was written for all ages in different eras. Similar to Hollywood films in the 1940s vs. the naturalism of the 1970s. That doesn't mean that the later comics or films are better because they have more realistic dialects and thought processes.

That was my point dangerous.

Ok gotcha.

Because it was better. The looks and sound of the '90s show had some flaire and had a sentimental soap opera sound ot it as well as a decent action and suspense beat. It didn't sound like the Smurfs.

I had my problems with the '90s show but it is the only cartoon yet to capture the feeling of the comics, albeit it is dilluted though.

What can I say I disagree.
TAS I found to be overly cheesy and Peter Parker himself too neurotic, agonizing over everything.
The neogenic recombinator started popping up in every other episode and the plot lines just became silly. I think they were trying too hard to emulate some of the stuff going on in the 90’s comics.

Obviously everyone is going to love the Spidey show they grew up on best, so for me the 1981 show was by far the most superior tribute to the comics.
If for no better reason that it actually looked like a John Romita illustrated Spidey comic come to life.
All the rogues looked exactly how they looked in the Lee/Romita golden era.
(Not that any of that mattered as a toddler, it was just my first exposure to Spider-man that made it)

Awesome stuff, plus I love all the old sound effects.
The score was great also, to me when I read Lee/Romita era Spidey (or even just Romita styled pencils in 70’s & 80’s Spidey comics) the voice I hear for PP/SM is the actor used in the 1981 show, and I also sometimes hear the music used to score the fights on the show.

The fights were always satisfying to watch.
I think that was because Spideys witty quips were always right on the mark and never cringe worthy like they sometimes were on TAS.
Speaking of cringe worthy, see the whole PP/MJ thing in TAS.
The 1981 show was just campy and fun and un pretentious.
I guess the show just left an indelible imprint on my brain.

 

[diespinne]

Ok gotcha.



What can I say I disagree.
TAS I found to be overly cheesy and Peter Parker himself too neurotic, agonizing over everything.
The neogenic recombinator started popping up in every other episode and the plot lines just became silly. I think they were trying too hard to emulate some of the stuff going on in the 90’s comics.

Obviously everyone is going to love the Spidey show they grew up on best, so for me the 1981 show was by far the most superior tribute to the comics.
If for no better reason that it actually looked like a John Romita illustrated Spidey comic come to life.
All the rogues looked exactly how they looked in the Lee/Romita golden era.
(Not that any of that mattered as a toddler, it was just my first exposure to Spider-man that made it)

Awesome stuff, plus I love all the old sound effects.
The score was great also, to me when I read Lee/Romita era Spidey (or even just Romita styled pencils in 70’s & 80’s Spidey comics) the voice I hear for PP/SM is the actor used in the 1981 show, and I also sometimes hear the music used to score the fights on the show.

The fights were always satisfying to watch.
I think that was because Spideys witty quips were always right on the mark and never cringe worthy like they sometimes were on TAS.
Speaking of cringe worthy, see the whole PP/MJ thing in TAS.
The 1981 show was just campy and fun and un pretentious.
I guess the show just left an indelible imprint on my brain.

EXACTLY! The older cartoons never tried too hard and never got so overwrought and bogged-down in long, drawn-out story arcs. The 90's series played like a really bad daytime soap opera/gaudy toy commercial. The older shows had character designs that were cooler (the 90's Spidey looked kinda chunky and not very agile at all) and the music was far more memorable (all I can remember of the music and sound effects from the 90's show is that horrible Joe Perry theme song). Sure, they were campy, but the older cartoons (including the '60s one) were just a lot more FUN.

I can commend the 90's series for attempting to take a more serious approach to things, but after a while I'd tune-in just to see who was going to beat-up Spidey or save Spidey's butt. Plus the animation just got painful to watch after the first couple of seasons. I have to say, I really liked the pilot episode and most of the first season or two. The Insidious Six episodes were cool... there were others too that were well done.

 

[DACrowe]

But the comics are all bogged down with overextended story arcs?!

I'll also only add that Ifind the voice acting was far superior in TAS. We can surely all agree on that. Christopher Daniel Barnes is the voice I hear when I read comics and he did the quips quite well, especially compared to Rino or Dr. Howser in later cartoons and video games.

And I think we can all agree certain voice actors on TAS defined their characters. Like the guy who did Dr. Octopus (I forget his name) or Jennifer Hale as the Black Cat. Also the guy who did Kingpin was spot on. Kind of how Mark Hammil defined the Joker's laugh and creepy voice in the Batman TAS.

I agree the reused animation was annoying but overall the animation was better than the cartoons before it and it was less "cutesy.." Aunt May no longer had a dog who filled in the Scooby antics or new silly secret labs like in Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends. Peter was poor, always looking for money, ahd real girl issues and had trouble not being a self-pitying ass (albeit by the end of the series he overcame that and grew the **** up, something he never has done in the comics to be fair).

And while I think we all agree the MJ being a clone in Season 5 was stupid, ruined the perfectly done marriage episode (for a kid's cartoon) and just pisses everyone off, it did cause some heartbreak to the little tykes out there and reinforced that show was action driven but the supporting cast was intractely important to Spider-Man.

Like the comics and even the movies, but no other cartoon has yet to understand that aboout Spidey though.

 

[DACrowe]

I would've preferred to have found Night of the Lizard, Dr. Octopus Armed and Dangerous, The Alien Costume Saga, the Hobgoblin episodes, the Black Cat or Turning Point, as those were the show's highlights. However, Youtube sucks and I could only find this. But it is still one of the decent episodes (if overlystuffed) on the show.

It displays a much more limber animation style for Spider-Man and his swinging than the 1981 (or 1960s for that matter) show and the musical cues are certainly better. Off the top of my head listen to the "romantic" scenes like when MJ comes down the asile or Black Cat's theme when she first shows up for example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htdGbeRmb4M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_8vfa6fhd4

 

[diespinne]

But the comics are all bogged down with overextended story arcs?!

I'll also only add that Ifind the voice acting was far superior in TAS. We can surely all agree on that. Christopher Daniel Barnes is the voice I hear when I read comics and he did the quips quite well, especially compared to Rino or Dr. Howser in later cartoons and video games.

And I think we can all agree certain voice actors on TAS defined their characters. Like the guy who did Dr. Octopus (I forget his name) or Jennifer Hale as the Black Cat. Also the guy who did Kingpin was spot on. Kind of how Mark Hammil defined the Joker's laugh and creepy voice in the Batman TAS.

I agree the reused animation was annoying but overall the animation was better than the cartoons before it and it was less "cutesy.." Aunt May no longer had a dog who filled in the Scooby antics or new silly secret labs like in Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends. Peter was poor, always looking for money, ahd real girl issues and had trouble not being a self-pitying ass (albeit by the end of the series he overcame that and grew the **** up, something he never has done in the comics to be fair).

And while I think we all agree the MJ being a clone in Season 5 was stupid, ruined the perfectly done marriage episode (for a kid's cartoon) and just pisses everyone off, it did cause some heartbreak to the little tykes out there and reinforced that show was action driven but the supporting cast was intractely important to Spider-Man.

Like the comics and even the movies, but no other cartoon has yet to understand that aboout Spidey though.

We're talking two (well, three if we include the 60's show) different eras. Of course, the 90's was more 'realistic' and less campy, but personally, I found the others more fun to watch and much more aesthetically pleasing. The weird painted psychedelic backgrounds, jazz/spy/surf/exotica music themes, and scenes/drawings ripped right out of the comic books in the 60's, and the cool guest stars, 80's/pseudo disco music, and character designs on the 80's shows were just more likeable for their time than the 90's one which I ended-up comparing to much better cartoons like the Batman and Superman cartoons out at that time. Sure, the older cartoons had their share of flaws too, but for their time, they rocked, and I still like them better.

I thought atleast action sequence wise, Spider-man Unlimited and the MTV show delivered much more dynamic ones than TAS. Spidey was actually depicted as being pretty formidable.

 

[Feature]

However, Youtube sucks and I could only find this.

Wrong. I've been watched the complete first and second seasons of Spider-Man TAS on youtube. Just figure out the name of the episode (easiest way is to use DRG4's episode guides) and type the title in the search field. Instant geekgasm.

 

[Eddie Brock]

you make a really good argument in saying that the stories are finished because Peter is all grown-up
i don't read current 616 anyway....but i probably would have stopped a while ago because they've run out of places to take him
and all this recent crap has gone too far

 

[Dangerous]

I'll also only add that Ifind the voice acting was far superior in TAS. We can surely all agree on that. And I think we can all agree certain voice actors on TAS defined their characters.

…? ..Erm, well no since I already stated that I believe the voice acting on Spider-man 1981to be the best. For me Ted Schwartz was the definitive Spider-man voice actor. His voice was PP/SM.
The rest of the cast was particularly great also, notably William Woodson as JJJ and Stanley Jones as Doctor Octopus. These guys for me, defined their roles and were amazing.

I agree the reused animation was annoying but overall the animation was better than the cartoons before it and it was less "cutesy.."

Disagree.

What were looking is how SM 1981 actually looked exactly like a John Romita comic, Vs TAS which was trying to look like a 90’s Spider-man comic, and instead looked like a cartoon trying to look like a comic.
The art direction on SM 1981 was superb, it was like a comic book come to life.
In TAS, what the hell were those horrid computer animated segments in bright colours?, featuring red buildings/ orange sky’s and green water? Those bits look lame and have really aged the show.
I’m not saying the animation/art direction in TAS was crap, it had its merits, but overall SM 1981for me is vastly superior.

Aunt May no longer had a dog who filled in the Scooby antics or new silly secret labs like in Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends.

Ahh, see now ya talking about Amazing Friends which was kinda silly (1982-84) don’t confuse the two shows.

Peter was poor, always looking for money, ahd real girl issues and had trouble not being a self-pitying ass (albeit by the end of the series he overcame that and grew the **** up, something he never has done in the comics to be fair).

And while I think we all agree the MJ being a clone in Season 5 was stupid, ruined the perfectly done marriage episode (for a kid's cartoon) and just pisses everyone off, it did cause some heartbreak to the little tykes out there and reinforced that show was action driven but the supporting cast was intractely important to Spider-Man.

Well you see, to me a lot of what TAS was trying to do, the themes you mentioned above, often seemed goofy to me in a cartoon. Lets not kid ourselves the primary target audience for these shows was kids. Not hardcore adult comic readers. In trying to appeal to the later you are always gonna run into problems. If you just embrace the format, I think therein lies the key to success.

In SM 1981 like TAS, he was a college kid, so you can imagine it was loosely set in Spidey’s golden era. SM/PP did not have girl issues and for me that’s great because when I look back on both shows TAS girl stuff just seems really hokey and cheesy. Kids don’t care about that in a cartoon they just like the action, for me I’m pretty much the same. If I want the full Spider-man experience Il read a comic. All I want w/ a cartoon adaptation is to be entertained and Spidey and his world to be portrayed in a faithfull way. PP dating in SM 1981 did happen, but it did not always follow a dilemma over what colour roses to buy MJ.

Basically Spidey was a much cooler and laid back guy in SM 1981,and less of a neurotic b-itch.
I think this approach fared much better in the Saturday morning TV format.

 

[Dangerous]

At least we have something interesting to discuss now in this thread.

 

[diespinne]

At least we have something interesting to discuss now in this thread.

Outta curiosity, did any of you catch the 80's Spiderwoman cartoon? I only vaguely remember that one...

 

[Dangerous]

Outta curiosity, did any of you catch the 80's Spiderwoman cartoon? I only vaguely remember that one...

Same here, vaguely remember it.

Hmmmm, back to youtube.

 

[Dangerous]

Ahhh, its all coming back to me now.

Goddamn, Jessica Drew was straight up hottie!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I49sMJTmF_0

 

[Kool-Aid]

HA!! Shallow spider breathing. lol

 

[Kool-Aid]

HA!! Shallow spider breathing. lol

 

[DACrowe]

Well I think it ocmes down to what you grew up with. I myself grew up with TAS and you obviously the '81 show.

For example I say Barnes and Asner for Peter/JJJ and you say those guys. Though I never met anyone who didn't think Zmiberni(sp?) wasn't perfect as Ock on TAS, but different tastes (or childhoods) I guess.

But you have to remember this show was targeted for kids. It was much more in line with the writing of the Romita eras. I find the writing read like a very dumbed down Lee/Romita or Conway/Romita era in the comic books. Maybe even a little '80s with Kingpin and Hobgoblin playing such large roles (and Venom's coacasional earth-shattering cameo, as he should be used).

Yeah, I saw the show for the first time in like a decade recently and it is really cheesy and childish now but to children it was not cheesy. It sold its case well and I think the show dealt with the characters and themes a lot more maturely than any other Spider-Man cartoon adn that includes the TV14 rated MTV show.

The arcs and characters grew over numerous episodes. They weren't all wrapped up in 20 minutes with the dog doing something funny at the end. The characters grew throughout the show and while it was hamfisted we now realize, for a kid's show it was really on top of its game. Sure Madame Web sucked, clones sucked, and no punches and freaking laser guns for everyone including street thugs sucked....but overall it was a good show. We'll just have to agree to disagree there. I saw the '80s shows a few years back and thought '81 was tolerable but shallow. The animation renderings could be simplistic Romita but the motion is too choppy, IMO. And the less said about Spidey & His Amazing Friends the better.

Different strokes, right?

Albeit, I'm never going to give up the music argument. I think the themes were actually very well done on TAS, aprticularly the action, romance and Aunt May themes (Black Cat had a very good theme too I realized on that recent rewatch too btrw).

I also thought it was better than Superman TAS (not saying Batman though)!

 

[diespinne]

Well I think it ocmes down to what you grew up with. I myself grew up with TAS and you obviously the '81 show.

For example I say Barnes and Asner for Peter/JJJ and you say those guys. Though I never met anyone who didn't think Zmiberni(sp?) wasn't perfect as Ock on TAS, but different tastes (or childhoods) I guess.

But you have to remember this show was targeted for kids. It was much more in line with the writing of the Romita eras. I find the writing read like a very dumbed down Lee/Romita or Conway/Romita era in the comic books. Maybe even a little '80s with Kingpin and Hobgoblin playing such large roles (and Venom's coacasional earth-shattering cameo, as he should be used).

Yeah, I saw the show for the first time in like a decade recently and it is really cheesy and childish now but to children it was not cheesy. It sold its case well and I think the show dealt with the characters and themes a lot more maturely than any other Spider-Man cartoon adn that includes the TV14 rated MTV show.

The arcs and characters grew over numerous episodes. They weren't all wrapped up in 20 minutes with the dog doing something funny at the end. The characters grew throughout the show and while it was hamfisted we now realize, for a kid's show it was really on top of its game. Sure Madame Web sucked, clones sucked, and no punches and freaking laser guns for everyone including street thugs sucked....but overall it was a good show. We'll just have to agree to disagree there. I saw the '80s shows a few years back and thought '81 was tolerable but shallow. The animation renderings could be simplistic Romita but the motion is too choppy, IMO. And the less said about Spidey & His Amazing Friends the better.

Different strokes, right?

Albeit, I'm never going to give up the music argument. I think the themes were actually very well done on TAS, aprticularly the action, romance and Aunt May themes (Black Cat had a very good theme too I realized on that recent rewatch too btrw).

I also thought it was better than Superman TAS (not saying Batman though)!

Even watching the 90's show now, I still can't say a single musical theme I'm hearing is remarkable. The music is perfectly adequate but nothing more (that theme song at the beginning is just horrible though). The other shows had far more memorable and UNIQUE music that set them apart from pretty much anything else out there. Obviously subjective, but that's my take.

As far as voice acting goes, I really like Peter and JJJ's voices from the 60's show. The guy who did Peter did a great job of making him sound tougher and more self confident whenever he had the mask on. I do like Doc Ock and Black Cat's voices in the 90's show.

What's up with all the knocking of Amazing Friends and Ms. Lion? Sure, it wasn't high art, but it had some really cool episodes that were far more entertaining than a lot of the stuff served-up in the 90's show. It was just a fun Saturday morning cartoon that obviously wasn't trying to take itself seriously. The banter between the characters was often a lot funnier. It was popular enough to have Marvel appropriate Firestar into the comics AND have an Amazing Friends team-up story come out recently.

If you want to talk about the 90's show as a serious stab at Spidey, definitely compare it to Batman TAS. THAT was a good, serious take on a superhero in a kids' cartoon. The animation, the music, the pacing, the voice acting... everything was really well done on that show, and it's stood the test of time a lot better than the Spidey show. Do you like the Justice League cartoons? What I've seen of them looks pretty good.

I guess I am more critical of the 90's Spidey show, because it was attempting to be a more serious take on the character, and it obviously had a larger budget behind it than anything previous to it.

 

[Dangerous]

Well I think it ocmes down to what you grew up with. I myself grew up with TAS and you obviously the '81 show.
For example I say Barnes and Asner for Peter/JJJ and you say those guys. Though I never met anyone who didn't think Zmiberni(sp?) wasn't perfect as Ock on TAS,

Well you have now.
Like you say it most likely comes down to what you grew up with.
In my experience 90% of people on this board will say the 1960's show is by far the best.
Whereas I bet the predominantly younger posters on the SM3 Spoilers board would claim TAS was best.

But you have to remember this show was targeted for kids. It was much more in line with the writing of the Romita eras. And the less said about Spidey & His Amazing Friends the better.

As I already stated, for me I much prefer the art direction of SM 1981 because that was ripped directly from the pages of John Romita's Spider-man.
Amazing friends I actually love too cause I grew up w/ it. Though it ain't as good as SM 1981.
I like my Spidey cartoons to be a little more light but also high in action, and not so bogged down w/ trying to emulate the emotional depth of the comics because they will always fail at that.

Different strokes like you say.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

dont stop liking spiderman my friend, in january they are bringing the symbiote costume back, it will make you feel like you are reading the old comics again, i can not watt to read the comics with the black suit, i do not like the civil war and i HATE spideys red and gold suit that tony stark made for him

 

[DACrowe]

Well you see when you are kid broadstokes like in the '90s TAS did not seem broad and stupid. They hit the message home to kids. All these characters (save for Deborah who was annoying then as she is watching it as an adult) from Pete, MJ, Harry, Felicia, JJJ, Robbie, even Norman Osborn were endearing in some way.

The show made you upset when MJ disappeared and Pete was in a depression afterwards. It was a hugely dark turn when Harry became the GG and tried to kill his best friend. The marriage was a big step, etc. Sure it is nothing compared to the first 30 years of Spidey comics (and I think the first 3 years of JMS/Jenkins and even Millar were a small resurgance of that...before it all went back downhill) but to a kid you don't realize that.

It was compelling. I did not see the '80s stuff until I was an adult and it was all one episode storylines. You didn't have recurring themes like Kingpin all was being there and untouchable while pulling the strings, who is the Hobgoblin, what is the black suit doing to Peter....why is Peter being hunted by Punisher/Blade hwile turning into a monster, etc. It was Spidey (and his amazing friends) tackle some lame poorly adpated villain (Norman Osborn transformed into the GG ala Ultimate style) and winning while partying in his secret lab with the pet dog.

The '81 show I think is way too simplistic in comparison and din't capture the feel of the comics. Though TAS definetly had a drop in quality in the 5th season (I thought while season 3 and 4 had a few bad episodes, they were both quite good) it remained faithful to the premise of the comics and sold it to children. A nerd down on his luck turned superhero who is reluctant and whiney about his powers who keeps having trouble with his love life and his morality code.

It just stands up better as an adult. Even if I remove nostolgia from it, I see it as a better show. But whatever. I was jsaying why I think it stands up better and I just don't get the Amazing Friends b/c it was like Scooby-Doo with the gang hanging out and the stupid pet doing funny things gag they've used in every cartoon since Scooby-Doo/Josey and the Pussycats. And I was glad to see TAS never stooped to that.

As for music, I think at the very least the Aunt May and romantic themes are still quite memorable. Perhaps I grew up with them though.

And as for Justice League....I have watched very little (not the biggest DC-fan in the world and still disagree with Batman being a member of JL), but it is a very good show, particularly Justice League Unlimited. It is better than any Marvel animated series.

But I don't really watch cartoons anymore so I haven't kept up with it. But Batman TAS and Batman Beyond were brilliant shows, I thought. Superman TAS was pretty good too, but I haven't seen that one in a decade and as a kid Preferred Batman, Spider-Man and X-Men TASs though.

 

[Kevin]

You know what i hated? Spider-man Unlimited. I'll tell you, if That was the first show I was exposed to, I would've stayed away from the comics.

 

[CConn]

(not the biggest DC-fan in the world and still disagree with Batman being a member of JL)

Why?

Just out of curiousity, of course.

 

[Venomfan]

i also disagree that batman should be on the team, i dont see how a guy with no powers could be of any help to people like Superman, Flash, Wonderwoman, Martian Manhunter

and i was a little kid when i watched TAS and the love story was one of my favorite parts. it was like the love story and Venom. and Venom was only in 3 episodes. when MJ showed up at his door after being gone for so long i was so excited for the next episode. or when he revealed himself to her. and the marriage. i try to foget the clone thing tho

 

[CConn]

i also disagree that batman should be on the team, i dont see how a guy with no powers could be of any help to people like Superman, Flash, Wonderwoman, Martian Manhunter

For Tactial, technical, and strategic support, obviously.

 

[DACrowe]

Well I never got the whole Batman has no powers thing; he is one of the ultimate badasses of the DC universe and given his history with many key members of the League (inparticularly Superman), I completely understand why they would WANT him to join.

But ironically, I think the JL arc they did on Batman Beyond (before the JL shows that retconnedd this for the animated DC universe said it best). Terry wanted to join and Bruce scoffed at Superman's boyscout image and the League and did not want Terry to join. At the end of the arc Terry is offered a spot on the team by Superman who says "He [Batman] never really got it. He was never a team player," but sees that in Terry, who just blows them off and walks away alone.

That is my image of Batman. He was very reluctant about the first Robin (or all Robins for that matter) and recruits his team memberes in the "Bat-family" very carefully. He has high scvrutiny and demands, the highest of which is that he is the boss and pulls the strings on EVERYTHING. It is his show and he doesn't trust any of them as much as himself in the long run. That is why I love the "graduation" episode of TAS much more in the comics when Dick Grayson has had enough and slugs Batman in the face and breaks up with Barbara because he thinks Bruce is a manipulative *******, and he is not half wrong.

Batman is a loner and for him to have a team it has to be on his terms always and even then he is highly dubious, even if they are like family to him.

Batman doesn't get along well with other capes, taking orders or big egos besides his own. He just is too much of a "Dark Knight" IMO to be a team player. The only reason I think he ever joined (post-crisis) the JL was out of tradition and to make the mags sell much better. But personality-wise it has never made any sense to me.

It is similar as to why I don't think Spidey should join the Avengers, he is too much of an outsider. He prefers working alone on his terms and other heroes just don't like him. I don't think he should be the underdog like he is in every frickin' fight now in Civil War, but he should be treated with little respect or trust (but there is a difference fro mLogan saying "I don't like you, kid" to him stabbing him in the chest as if the spider-sense wouldn't warn him).

Peter joining the Avengers while it makes more sense for his personality just seems out of line given Spidey's meathod of operations and standing in the Marvel universe (perception, not skill).

As for the DC universe itself. Meh. The heroes are too godly there. Save for Batman and Nightwing (and occasisionally Superman) I've never had any real interest in DC character titles. Superman, Green Lantern, Flash, Wonder Woman, etc. are all too powerful. I feel all of their dominate personalities are the costumes and the real faces are just masks (like Batman too, I suppose) and there is no focus on it.

I've seen runs on stories I like, including Batman that can go something like 20 issues without a mask ever going off or interacting with nayone else. It is too much drive nb powers and painting these people as mythical gods than falliable and flawed human beings (for hte ones who are flawed). It goes the same with the pedistrian people who worship and adore them all, including the JL. I prefer a society that doesn't trust them all or even downright hates the heroes and there is a sense of tension between the capes and the public.

They are treated like gods and whenever things go stale or DC doesn't like this direction they just have a "crisis," where they erase whole chunks of history, change chunks or start the whole universe over every 15-20 years or so. Sometimes even 10. Superboy punching the timeline to reverse time makes me want to puke almost as much as bringing Timm Drake back from the dead and making him a supervillain. That is when I quit reading Batman comics for a time (it's now on/off as my relationship with Spidey has been since Sins Past).

Oh well.

 

[CConn]

The one thing you have to understand about your analysis of Batman's personality is that his personality has changed throughout the years. He wasn't that uber-obsessive loner when the Justice League was formed (back in the 60s, I mean - which, actually, I think is now sorta, kinda back in continuity), and while, yeah, for about 15-20 years he was exactly what you said he was, he is now going back to that less obsessive, more trusting character that was around in the '70s and early '80s. So yeah, I could agree, given his characterization at the time, Batman joining (or rather, staying in) the League in the mid '90s, doesn't make a lot of sense. But when it was created in the '60s, when it's being recreated right now, it makes much more sense, I'd say.

As for your criticisms of DC's characters as a whole. Like a lot of people who have that same problem with them, I think you would be right to have it...if this was 1969. Back then, DC's main characters pretty much were what you say they still are; more masks than personalities. Diana, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen, Arthur Curry, etc. all have pretty straight, basic personalities. And if they were all still running around, I'd probably dislike the DCU as much as you do. But they're not. Y'know, DC brought in new characters like Wally West, Kyle Raynor, Tim Drake, Guy Gardener, Booster Gold...guys like that. Those guys are all about personality - in some cases, being all about comedic personality - and, IMO at least, that really reinvigorated their whole universe.

And this is a complete aside, and I really shouldn't be saying it as it's not my place, but, I have to ask, how can you stand taking things so seriously, and so personally in comics? I'm referring mainly to quiting titles just because stupid things happen every once in a while. That kind of thing happens in every title, with every character, and if you can't stand when that happens, why be a comics fan at all? In fact, how can you even stand being a comics fan? Y'know, I'm not saying you should be happy about it or anything, but to be affected enough by it to actually drop books because of it, I'd imagine it would all be a quite infuriating experience.