Interview with JMS and JQ on Spidey in Wizard

[Darthphere]

I disagree with you about the sales being the only indicator.

How many comic book message boards are out there? A lot these days.

You can get instant fan reaction by going onto ANY of these message boards. Unlike the days of Stan Lee and Steve Ditko where they had to await letters through snail mail.

The orders on the book went up when the new suit was announced. Ok. But does that mean the fans are loving it and enjoying it?

Can I understand that Joe Quesada and JMS don't have time to browse message boards? Yes. But don't they have interns and other people who do things at Marvel?

Maybe before the Internet and the advent of message boards I could see an Editor in Chief say, "The only indicator I have are the sales". But this day and age you've pretty much got immediate reaction to the stories, artwork, and editorial decisions.

Heres the thing though, the internet fan base represent a vocal minority. You can go to every messageboard and find people hating on New Avengers, ASM etc. the thing is its still in the top 10 sales wise. What does that tell Joey Q and JMS while reading messageboards? These guys are in the minority since the books are selling like hotcakes. Of course you can gauge fan reaction by reading messageboards but the truth is if theyre still selling they must be doing something right. Thats why I if you hate a book, drop the book.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Heres the thing though, the internet fan base represent a vocal minority. You can go to every messageboard and find people hating on New Avengers, ASM etc. the thing is its still in the top 10 sales wise. What does that tell Joey Q and JMS while reading messageboards? These guys are in the minority since the books are selling like hotcakes. Of course you can gauge fan reaction by reading messageboards but the truth is if theyre still selling they must be doing something right. Thats why I if you hate a book, drop the book.

Oh, I see what you're saying. And to an extent I do agree with you. Many comic fans on message boards are a vocal minority. Not every comic reader is on a message board and saying what they feel about the stories.

And the sales numbers, from my recollection, are by how many copies the stores buy. Not exactly how many issues were sold person to person.

My point is that Joe Quesada and JMS have to know that MANY fans dislike them. Ok, sales boosted during The Other and the new suit caused a boost. But everywhere I turn people hated it. People grew to hate Quesada further and JMS even further.

Are sales the entire answer? No. Quesada should know better than that, he's in the industry. Are fan reactions on the Internet the entire answser? No. As you said, not everyone who buys comics are on the Internet saying how they feel.

And I do agree with you. Buy what you like and enjoy. Don't buy what you dislike.

While I do know many posters who REALLY dislike things don't read the books...how many posters say they don't buy them but still do to have full runs? Or love the character too much to give it up? I don't consider people who do that wrong either. But if you do that and complain about JMS, Quesada, the new suit, stingers, etc. Then the only bad guy in the situation is yourself.

But I do disagree with you on sales. While they can assist in the state of the book that's not the whole picture. Fan reaction is more important, in my opinion, to a bunch of numbers.

 

[Horrorfan]

Here's the thing, Marvel's books are doing great.....like, really awesome numbers. So how does Joe Q know fans hate him? If I was him, I wouldn't be thinking 'Wow the fact our books are selling so well (including New Avengers, which it pains me to say because I don't think it's very good at all) MUST mean the fans hate me....they hate me so much they make the books really sucessful.' I mean I'm sure he realises that a small minority dislikes him on the internet, but those aren't the opinions he cares about. At the end of the day, the only way you can truly show a company you don't like what they are doing is not to spend money on their products.

I think it's a case of a lot of other people like it, but because people here don't, it MUST mean it sucks. I mean I don't think New Avengers is anything great, but other people enjoy it so who am I to say 'oh you tools, New Avengers is teh suck?'

If people didn't like to read it, they wouldn't make it a hit month after month. It might have stayed strong for two, three months tops, but it wouldn't still be going strong without a decent fanbase. That's just the truth.

Like I say, you guys are making the mistake that comic sales are the same as movie box office and whatnot. It's not. With a movie, if a movie you hate gets you to pay to see it once, you're not gonna go and pay to see it again are you? It can only 'get you' once. But if you know a comic will suck, you wouldn't pick it up month after month would you? I certainly hope not.

 

[Darthphere]

Oh, I see what you're saying. And to an extent I do agree with you. Many comic fans on message boards are a vocal minority. Not every comic reader is on a message board and saying what they feel about the stories.

And the sales numbers, from my recollection, are by how many copies the stores buy. Not exactly how many issues were sold person to person.

My point is that Joe Quesada and JMS have to know that MANY fans dislike them. Ok, sales boosted during The Other and the new suit caused a boost. But everywhere I turn people hated it. People grew to hate Quesada further and JMS even further.

Are sales the entire answer? No. Quesada should know better than that, he's in the industry. Are fan reactions on the Internet the entire answser? No. As you said, not everyone who buys comics are on the Internet saying how they feel.

And I do agree with you. Buy what you like and enjoy. Don't buy what you dislike.

While I do know many posters who REALLY dislike things don't read the books...how many posters say they don't buy them but still do to have full runs? Or love the character too much to give it up? I don't consider people who do that wrong either. But if you do that and complain about JMS, Quesada, the new suit, stingers, etc. Then the only bad guy in the situation is yourself.

But I do disagree with you on sales. While they can assist in the state of the book that's not the whole picture. Fan reaction is more important, in my opinion, to a bunch of numbers.

I agree with you about fan reaction but sometimes its hard to pinpoint it. Like those odd Wizard polls and things like that.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Here's the thing, Marvel's books are doing great.....like, really awesome numbers. So how does Joe Q know fans hate him? If I was him, I wouldn't be thinking 'Wow the fact our books are selling so well (including New Avengers, which it pains me to say because I don't think it's very good at all) MUST mean the fans hate me....they hate me so much they make the books really sucessful.' I mean I'm sure he realises that a small minority dislikes him on the internet, but those aren't the opinions he cares about. At the end of the day, the only way you can truly show a company you don't like what they are doing is not to spend money on their products.

I think it's a case of a lot of other people like it, but because people here don't, it MUST mean it sucks. I mean I don't think New Avengers is anything great, but other people enjoy it so who am I to say 'oh you tools, New Avengers is teh suck?'

If people didn't like to read it, they wouldn't make it a hit month after month. It might have stayed strong for two, three months tops, but it wouldn't still be going strong without a decent fanbase. That's just the truth.

Like I say, you guys are making the mistake that comic sales are the same as movie box office and whatnot. It's not. With a movie, if a movie you hate gets you to pay to see it once, you're not gonna go and pay to see it again are you? It can only 'get you' once. But if you know a comic will suck, you wouldn't pick it up month after month would you? I certainly hope not.

Like Darthphere, I see what you mean about sales. But sales don't dictate everything. The sales numbers are not a person to person basis. If Joe Quesada is just making decisions based on the sales numbers...he's really going the wrong way with it. Numbers can only tell you so much. But the people who are actually reading the material are a little more important than some numbers.

And I do heavily agree with you on the message board mentality. It's why the Spider-Man comics forum here is so hostile. You can't go in that forum and say you enjoy something without meeting ridicule from the gang there.

And if you do say you enjoy what's going on with Spider-Man these days you're basically told you're not a "real Spider-Man fan".

Hence, why I'm glad this subject is in the Marvel forum. A little more discussion and a little less, "I'm better than you because I'm the say all and know all of Spider-Man".

 

[Darthphere]

Hence, why I'm glad this subject is in the Marvel forum. A little more discussion and a little less, "I'm better than you because I'm the say all and know all of Spider-Man".

One of the many reasons I dont travel to the Spider-Man boards.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Well, I wish you would venture over there. Give the board a little bit of a balance. Instead of it being so one sided, which is probably one of the main contributions for the animosity. A lot of those posters there think because the majority on the SuperHeroHype message board dislike what's going on that everybody should.

 

[Horrorfan]

Like Darthphere, I see what you mean about sales. But sales don't dictate everything. The sales numbers are not a person to person basis. If Joe Quesada is just making decisions based on the sales numbers...he's really going the wrong way with it. Numbers can only tell you so much. But the people who are actually reading the material are a little more important than some numbers.

And I do heavily agree with you on the message board mentality. It's why the Spider-Man comics forum here is so hostile. You can't go in that forum and say you enjoy something without meeting ridicule from the gang there.

And if you do say you enjoy what's going on with Spider-Man these days you're basically told you're not a "real Spider-Man fan".

Hence, why I'm glad this subject is in the Marvel forum. A little more discussion and a little less, "I'm better than you because I'm the say all and know all of Spider-Man".

I see your point as well mate....but it's true, if the message boards are telling Joe Q he sucks, he looks at the sales, and that's not what's indicated. I agree sales don't always paint the full picture, but in comic terms it would be like making Catwoman the movie a hit, and then making the worse sequel even bigger a sucess ya know?


Yeah I can't stand it when someone says 'you like whats going on now? OMFG YOU ARE TEH N00B ' just because they don't like it. I can't stand friends or will and grace, but I have no problem with people that do.

 

[Darthphere]

Well, I wish you would venture over there. Give the board a little bit of a balance. Instead of it being so one sided, which is probably one of the main contributions for the animosity. A lot of those posters there think because the majority on the SuperHeroHype message board dislike what's going on that everybody should.

Maybe I will. The truth is the only Spider-Man book im reading right now is Friendly. Maybe ill come back to ASM once JMS is off or I hear good things about it.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Maybe I will. The truth is the only Spider-Man book im reading right now is Friendly. Maybe ill come back to ASM once JMS is off or I hear good things about it.

Hope I see you over there.

 

[Horrorfan]

Also, although I am somewhat a fan of Spidey (only vaguely- in games, spiderman 2 movie, and in his guest apperances in series like marvel team up or one shots) I would say I have a decent handle on his character- a wise cracking funny guy who hides his fear with jokes and self depriciation- but even I would say the idea of the other sounded quite silly.

Is it true Spiderman turned into a monster and bit a guy's head off? Does anyone have scans? Was it as silly as it sounds? I try not to judge things without reading them, but I was like 'how did that get past marvel?' when I first heard it...

 

[SpideyInATree]

Yeah, its true he bit someones head off. Morlun's head, to be exact. And he had stingers pop out of his wrists to paralyze his opponent with.

The Other was...not good. Heh. It's one thing that, from my knowledge, all Spider-Man fans can agree on.

JMS is a fine writer and his totemistic take on Spider-Man's origin was great at the end of Book of Ezekiel, but The Other really "jumped the shark". And even me, who enjoyed the totem aspect of the story, felt it was just too much.

I'd highly suggest avoiding The Other storyline, it's not that great. Plus Mary Jane and Aunt May went on a "mission" with Spidey...in Iron Man armor. So, yeah, it got a little out there sometimes.

And, yes, on those occassions I can understand fans being upset and that the "sales" don't reflect the quality.

 

[Horrorfan]

I'm slightly ashamed to say this, but it sounds worth a read just for the sheer silly spectacle of spidey turning into a monster and biting off someones head

 

[SpideyInATree]

Then this is the story arc for you, heh. And the artwork in Marvel Knights Spider-Man, which was done by Pat Lee, was really tough to get through as well.

 

[gildea]

Britney Spears sells more -- much more -- than Alicia Keys, but anyone with any semblance of intelligence knows who is more talented.

When you judge quality by way of sales, already you are going about it the wrong way; more than a hundred years of capitalism and retail teaches us that more often than not the two are not complementary. Quality is determined by quality alone and always has been. Needing sales of a book to tell you what is quality is pretty much the past of least resistance here, needing no individual effort and no individual ideas. How can this possibly be analogous to creativity of all things when it is a complete dearth of creativity, much less creative decisions?

Capitalism is more or less based on sales equal quality actually. Its a fundamental assumption in almost all economic models (that people are rational)

And the music thing is a terrible analagy, britney sells to a wide nondiscerning market heavily influenced by media and marketing. Kids don't buy music they buy a marketed ideal. Comics are a niche with a hardcore and incredibly well informed, but small, fanbase. Comics also are serial fiction its a reasonable assumption if you continue to buy it you enjoy it.

Also noone is saying sales are perfect, only that they are just the best available indicator. Unless you have a better way of gaging fan opinon of quality?

 

[gildea]

But I do disagree with you on sales. While they can assist in the state of the book that's not the whole picture. Fan reaction is more important, in my opinion, to a bunch of numbers.

Surely sales are a MEASURE of fan reaction?

The internet simply is a far more flawed measure of fan reaction than sales for a multitude of reasons.
- Sample size is too small there are 32000 members of superherohype, even if all of them screamed to high heaven about how bad NA was its still insignificant next to those who are voting with their wallets.
-Its anonomous. Are those 32000 individuals or multiple accounts?
-Its extreme mostly due to the impersonal nature. I doubt most people would voice their opinions irl the way they do here.
-it would be VERY time consuming to have to check most of the message boards and read fan reveiws/reaction (most of which is incredibly poorly written btw)
- ALL the FLAWS of SALES are present in the internet!!! (in some form)


Thats not to say joe q should ignore it but it is not as important as sales and frankly far LESS honest.

 

[BrianWilly]

I'm going to touch on what's been talked about earlier in the thread. Now, you can't tell me these two guys don't read message boards or have heard fan reactions to their stories. Especially Sins Past and The Other. Now, knowing full well that many long time Spider-Man fans HATE JMS and HATE Joe Quesada...why do a freakin' miniseries together? Is that supposed to be some kind of little "FU" to fans or something?

The thing is that Quesada's mission statement is not and has never been to market his books to the older fans; his primary goal has always been to bring in newer, younger readers. By "older" I mean people who have been following the series for a while, and by "younger" I mean people who have just discovered it.

The main majority of people who complain voraciously on message boards is undeniably older fans who feel like his sales-based decisions betray the essence of the character, not the newer readers who may not know what the essence of the character is yet. Thus, Quesada has no interest in internet complaints, and less interest is pleasing those who complain on the internet.

Which is great, I suppose, for people who are just getting into comics for the first time, but for people like us who are actually fans of the characters and have been for a while...well, we're just going have to get used to receiving the shaft end of the stick.

And y'know what? As much as I disagree with his policies, I have to at least point out that Quesada does have a very clear, very defined direction in mind for his company. He knows what he wants and he knows how to do it, and he's not pussyfooting around or doing anything half-assed. The problem, for me, is that his direction and vision does not include producing quality stories for long-time fans like me. Everything about his vision is about the short-term. Everything about his definition of quality is based on those surface, short-term gains. He admits all the time that he's not interested in growth, and say what you want about him but at least he's sticking to those guns.

 

[BrianWilly]

And the music thing is a terrible analagy

I wasn't making an analogy about sales, I was making an analogy about quality. That was my point from the very beginning, that sales has nothing to do with quality.

Also noone is saying sales are perfect, only that they are just the best available indicator. Unless you have a better way of gaging fan opinon of quality?

As for what exactly he should base his creative decisions on, well, why not base them on what he thinks are good stories? Not just shocking or temporary sales boosters, but stories that he actually likes? Did Tolkien need monthly sales charts to tell him what he should write? Did Sondheim? I mean, these days you might be laughed out of nearly any entertainment medium if you said "I let sales tell me what I want to do." That's not the attitude of a creator, that's the attitude of the stereotypical money-hungry businessman; at the very least your artistic integrity would be derided.

I mean the idea that anyone should need something to tell them what quality is is just backwards. A good creator should know what quality storytelling is, independent of sales or marketing. Of course you shouldn't just ignore outside influences like sales and reader responses, but those things shouldn't be the basis of your creativity and quality because they are largely unrelated to them.

 

[Dodger]

Okay I want to defend JMS a bit.

He HAS been a good writer, not great but good. But he's a godsend from HOWARD MACKIE...ugh. He brought us the Morlun arc, which at that time was the most action we have seen in the flagship title in a LONG time.

But what I really like about JMS is his handle on pete. I loved, how in the avengers arc spider-man took charge and told the avengers what was going on. that rocket scene was awesome, I love the inner monoluge he writes for peter. Remeber his joke about why he doesnt have pockets and how should use velcro? Or al the one liners in the digger arc?

I think JMS is just in slump right know. the other wasnt that great. I didnt like it as a whole just parts. I just hope he can get back to the Romita Jr days re- sins past. I really enjoyed those arc.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Surely sales are a MEASURE of fan reaction?

The internet simply is a far more flawed measure of fan reaction than sales for a multitude of reasons.
- Sample size is too small there are 32000 members of superherohype, even if all of them screamed to high heaven about how bad NA was its still insignificant next to those who are voting with their wallets.
-Its anonomous. Are those 32000 individuals or multiple accounts?
-Its extreme mostly due to the impersonal nature. I doubt most people would voice their opinions irl the way they do here.
-it would be VERY time consuming to have to check most of the message boards and read fan reveiws/reaction (most of which is incredibly poorly written btw)
- ALL the FLAWS of SALES are present in the internet!!! (in some form)


Thats not to say joe q should ignore it but it is not as important as sales and frankly far LESS honest.

So, lets say 100,000 people bought a comic book. All everybody is doing, even if it's a small population of readers, is complaining about how they've hated it.

Now numbers on a sheet of paper, which don't show the individual sales of the comics, are more important than what the fans think of the quality of the book? The numbers are showing how many books the shops ordered, not the individual buy of each person.

How many people have pull lists, get the book in their pull list, and then realize they don't want it anymore and put it back on the shelf in the shop? A lot of people. In fact, I see it every week when I'm in the comic shop.

Numbers can give you a basic idea and is a good indicator to a guy wearing a suit and tie and just worried about how much money he's making. But to a guy who is editor in chief of the most popular comic book company in the world...the numbers on the sheet can only tell you so much. Just because numbers are good doesn't mean everybody enjoyed the story.

Fan reaction is important to the creators because these are the people who are going to keep buying your book month in and month out. If you've got a plethora of unhappy fans and people who don't even want to bother with their favorite character any longer...you're just going to go by the sales and watch long time Spider-Man fans/readers just drift away from the character?

Hey, I can understand that Quesada wants to attract newer readers. I love getting people into comics. But you can attract new readers without the gimmicks, trashy soap opera drama, and bad artwork (Pat Lee in The Other).

I can understand Quesada saying that he can really only gauge by the sales of the book. But there is a lot more to that. If he doesn't want to hear fans out, then that's his perogative. But with the fans having stronger voices, especially since the advent of the Internet, it could be a VERY huge mistake.

 

[Darthphere]

So, lets say 100,000 people bought a comic book. All everybody is doing, even if it's a small population of readers, is complaining about how they've hated it.

Now numbers on a sheet of paper, which don't show the individual sales of the comics, are more important than what the fans think of the quality of the book? The numbers are showing how many books the shops ordered, not the individual buy of each person.

How many people have pull lists, get the book in their pull list, and then realize they don't want it anymore and put it back on the shelf in the shop? A lot of people. In fact, I see it every week when I'm in the comic shop.

Numbers can give you a basic idea and is a good indicator to a guy wearing a suit and tie and just worried about how much money he's making. But to a guy who is editor in chief of the most popular comic book company in the world...the numbers on the sheet can only tell you so much. Just because numbers are good doesn't mean everybody enjoyed the story.

Fan reaction is important to the creators because these are the people who are going to keep buying your book month in and month out. If you've got a plethora of unhappy fans and people who don't even want to bother with their favorite character any longer...you're just going to go by the sales and watch long time Spider-Man fans/readers just drift away from the character?

Hey, I can understand that Quesada wants to attract newer readers. I love getting people into comics. But you can attract new readers without the gimmicks, trashy soap opera drama, and bad artwork (Pat Lee in The Other).

I can understand Quesada saying that he can really only gauge by the sales of the book. But there is a lot more to that. If he doesn't want to hear fans out, then that's his perogative. But with the fans having stronger voices, especially since the advent of the Internet, it could be a VERY huge mistake.

Marvel.com is supposed to be getting their own messageboards, that should be interesting.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

How many people have pull lists, get the book in their pull list, and then realize they don't want it anymore and put it back on the shelf in the shop? A lot of people. In fact, I see it every week when I'm in the comic shop.

I do that, even though the dudes at my shop have told me not to. I'm a rebel.

Actually, I'm usually just too lazy to cross stuff off my pull list.

 

[Darthphere]

I do that, even though the dudes at my shop have told me not to. I'm a rebel.

Actually, I'm usually just too lazy to cross stuff off my pull list.

You too huh?