Is Batman a fascist?

[The Batman]

So what a "bunch of superheroes" do justifies protocols for taking them all out? Paranoia is the trademark of fascist regimes, you know?

In the end, his protocols were completelly WORTHLESS agaisnt Superman and his satelite only served to trigger a new CRISIS.


BTW, Cap doesn´t have the superserum in his veins.
And if bat is being overwhelmed by the threats he faces, then instead of instilling fear in the hearts and minds of everyone, he could just allow a few metas in-town.
Or is he affraid the JLA will put him out of work?

Hm...maybe its because hes afraid those metas will bring their metahuman baddies into gotham...making the town even WORSE

 

[Zeu]

I'll reiterate: a tiny bit of control and order instilled into a pot largely overrun with chaos and lawlessness does not constitute fascism.

But then that´s not what we ar discussing, is it?
We are discussing whether he has fascist tendencies.
And the tools he uses ARE all trademark tools of fascist regimes:

Fear and Control.

 

[The Batman]

And he has admitted that this was a mistake.

And I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that everyone was scared of him, much less talking in hushed tones around him or whatever. Of the JLA issues that I read and events where heroes would crossover with Batman, the fear he instilled was used more like a running gag, an "office joke" of sorts that all the capes engage in. In the field, everyone trusted Batman. No one actually thought, "If I do something wrong, Batman's gonna get me" any more than they thought "If I do something wrong, Superman's gonna get me." Just because someone's a jerk doesn't mean that they're fascist.

exactly. some guys are just intimidating. Batman is not sunshine and roses. He's seen things that will make you skin crawl.

Notice how when Batman talked to most of the heroes, he was actually being very respectful. Kyle was scared of Batman, but when they actually talk, bats is quite respectful of him. Same with Wally,and other young heroes

 

[BrianWilly]

So what a "bunch of superheroes" do justifies protocols for taking them all out? Paranoia is the trademark of fascist regimes, you know?

Paranoia is also the trademark of psychosis. Which doesn't necessarily suggest fascism.

 

[The Batman]

Paranoia is also the trademark of psychosis. Which doesn't necessarily suggest fascism.

And being mindwiped by people who you thought were your best friends, losing you partner, and having another cripple will sure as hell do alot to your psyche...does not necessarily make you have facist tendencies

 

[BrianWilly]

But then that´s not what we ar discussing, is it?
We are discussing whether he has fascist tendencies.
And the tools he uses ARE all trademark tools of fascist regimes:

Fear and Control.

It's also the same tactic that the highway patrol uses to keep people from speeding.

There's more to fascism than simply the tactics employed. It's an entire state of mind.

 

[Zeu]

Hm...maybe its because hes afraid those metas will bring their metahuman baddies into gotham...making the town even WORSE

Of course.
Because there AREN´T already tons of metas in town wrecking the place.
Mr. Freeze, a meta? Nonsense!
Killer Croc? No way!
Clayface? Nah!

 

[Zeu]

It's also the same tactic that the highway patrol uses to keep people from speeding.

There's more to fascism than simply the tactics employed. It's an entire state of mind.

And when you start spying in friends and allies and devising plans to take them out... which state of mind do you think we have entered?

 

[BrianWilly]

Self-defense.

 

[The Batman]

Of course.
Because there AREN´T already tons of metas in town wrecking the place.
Mr. Freeze, a meta? Nonsense!
Killer Croc? No way!
Clayface? Nah!

Are those guys on the same level as Sinestro?

Zoom?

Giganta?

Bizarro?

Brainiac?

Gorilla Grodd?

Despero?

DARKSEID?

 

[The Question]

Mr. Freeze, a meta? Nonsense!

Actually, it is. None of Freeze's powers are inheren within his body.

Killer Croc? No way!

He wasn't really a meta until very recently.

 

[Zeu]

Are those guys on the same level as Sinestro?

Zoom?

Giganta?

Bizarro?

Brainiac?

Gorilla Grodd?

Despero?

DARKSEID?

Meaning what?
It didn´t take any of them to turn the city into a wasteland.
Which, OMG!, happened in his watch!
Gee, I wonder if having a couple metas during THAT crisis would have helped avert the tragedy.

Not to mention Bludhaven which is now a crater.
Was Metropolis ever transformed into a crater?
Boston, perhaps?
Maybe Opal city?

 

[Zeu]

Self-defense.

Oldest excuse in the book.

Has Animal Man ever do anything to harm him?
Then why is there a satelite parked above his head spying on him?

 

[BrianWilly]

Meaning what?
It didn´t take any of them to turn the city into a wasteland.
Which, OMG!, happened in his watch!
Gee, I wonder if having a couple metas during THAT crisis would have helped avert the tragedy.

Not to mention Bludhaven which is now a crater.
Was Metropolis ever transformed into a crater?
Boston, perhaps?
Maybe Opal city?

Coast City?

 

[BrianWilly]

Oldest excuse in the book.

Has Animal Man ever do anything to harm him?
Then why is there a satelite parked above his head spying on him?

Again, we are back at paranoia, which is not the same thing as fascism.

 

[The Batman]

Meaning what?
It didn´t take any of them to turn the city into a wasteland.
Which, OMG!, happened in his watch!
Gee, I wonder if having a couple metas during THAT crisis would have helped avert the tragedy.

Not to mention Bludhaven which is now a crater.
Was Metropolis ever transformed into a crater?
Boston, perhaps?
Maybe Opal city?

What the hell are you talking about? Do you have a point?

Gotham turned into a wasteland because of a natural earthquake, a virus outbreak, and the SEVEN DEADLY SINS. All those things were beyond his control. all those things happen how often?

Now imagine what would happen if Superman, the world's greatest hero, the hero probably every metahuman wants to take a shot at, brought attention to Gotham.

 

[Zeu]

Again, we are back at paranoia, which is not the same thing as fascism.

No, but it IS a symptom.

Pair it with other variables such as Fear and Control and you are entering that territory.

 

[Zeu]

What the hell are you talking about? Do you have a point?

Gotham turned into a wasteland because of a natural earthquake, a virus outbreak, and the SEVEN DEADLY SINS. All those things were beyond his control. all those things happen how often?

Now imagine what would happen if Superman, the world's greatest hero, the hero probably every metahuman wants to take a shot at, brought attention to Gotham.

Gee, a natural earthquake.
I wonder if Superman and the JLA could stop a natural earthquake.

Hey, GL, you´ve handled planetary disasters before, any recipies for a natural earthquake?
GL: - Sure, I can fix it in 2 seconds, but of course I´d have to be allowed in-town.
Batman: Tough luck, kiddo.

 

[BrianWilly]

Let me clarify: for a state of fascism to exist, Batman would have had to actively suppress all opposition, disagreement, and criticism of his ideals and set himself up as the sole voice that matters in the entire establishment. A dictatorship, if you will. Which, obviously, never happened. The JLA situation simply doesn't work like that; Batman never ascribed to all power or wanted it. He kept his own ideas relatively unsaid because he knew no one would agree with him, and he didn't want them to agree with him because it was a personal fear, not something he felt that everyone should believe in. In an organization like the JLA, people like Superman and Green Lantern would always, always have some measure of power simply because they were powerful people; in this sense the JLA would never become anything more than a democracy due to its checks and balances. Did Batman want a measure of control over that? Of course. But a measure of control is not total control, and is therefore not fascism. He never once said, "No Wally, you can't do this because I said so." He always said, "No Wally, you can't do this because if you do, we're all fcked."

Batman had a suspicion of metahumans and those with more power than ordinary humans should have. Therefore he felt that he needed some power for himself, and he relied on fear and intimidation to do so. That is posturing. It's like a cornered cat raising the hair on its back to look larger. It's not the mark of a dictatorship in which all other opposition would be silenced.

And guess what? HIS FEARS WERE FOUNDED! Max Lord did control Superman, Luthor did control Superboy, and the secret Leaguers did abuse their power and mindwipe him and others like him, which eventually led to old problems coming back to bite them in the ass! I don't agree with Batman's issues and the way he went about it, but it was far from the active oppression that actually constitutes fascism.

 

[Kitsune]

And I doubt Batman's conservative. He dosent fit that mold, IMO. He donates charity to the poor to help them on their feet, whereas most conservatives believe you should do that by yourself. Not to mention he pretty much follows his fathers beliefs, which always seemed pretty liberal in nature.

Actually that's wrong. Most Converatives believe that the goverment in not the best way to do it. In my personal experience conservatives tend to donate more money and time to causes, while Liberals tend to tell the governemt to do it for them.

 

[hippie_hunter]

He did have a problem with Wonder Woman killing Max Lord. He wasn't as horrified by it as Superman, but he very clearly disapproved.

And when Wonder Woman declared that Dr. Light should have been killed, he also refuted this. WW accused him of not understanding the situation, and he said something like "I understand it. I just refuse to accept it."

He opposed Wonder Woman killing Maxwell Lord, Jason Todd killing criminals, and the Power Pact killing Dr. Light because that represents someone taking the law into their hands becomming the police, judge, jury, and executioner. Batman does beleive in civil rights at least and a superhero killing like Wonder Woman did kind of violates those rights. Also, Batman has a moral code against killing and he prefers not to associate with those who kill.

However he is in full support of the death penalty and lethal action when needed. In the No Man's Land he did not complain to Jim Gordon when he killed, he would probally like to see the Joker get executed. Why? Because they represent the law. They basically are the law. Superheroes help save people but they are not representatives of the law and are not the law. Batman is very much in support of the law.

 

[GoldenAgeHero]

^^for the law is the law, the law can not be the law for the law is the law therefore hence the law. lol

 

[IDispose]

Fear and control. Fear and control. What nonsense. There are loads of government types that use these as political weapons but that doesn't make them fascist. Even saying that Batman is borderline fascist is crazy. Look a bit deeper into politics than a few Google sniffs.

 

[Zeu]

Fear and control. Fear and control. What nonsense.

According to whom?

There are loads of government types that use these as political weapons but that doesn't make them fascist.

Talk is cheap.
How about some actual real-life examples to consubstanciate your claim, n00b?

Even saying that Batman is borderline fascist is crazy.

And why is that, n00b?
No, don´t look at the other people´s posts, I wanna hear in your own words.

Look a bit deeper into politics than a few Google sniffs.

A personal attack on your very first post, n00b?

You´ll make plenty of friends here, oh yeah.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm pretty sure it's "consubstantiate," and I'm also pretty sure that the word you want there is just "substantiate."