JL Vs ULTIMATE AVENGERS???

[Cyrusbales]

Being the sad comic book fan that I am, I have been considering with my freinds who would win out of the JL Vs The ultimate Avengers???

For this I'm taking certain line-ups for each team, the ones most people are familiar with, due to the TV shows etc.

AVENGERS: Ironman, Hulk, Cpt America, Thor, Giant Man, Wasp, Hawkeye, Black Widow.

JL: Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Martain Manhunter, Hawk Girl.

The way I see it, it pretty much becomes, Hulk, Thor and Ironman Vs Superman, Wonder Woman, GL and Martain Manhunter. The other characters from the avengers can take out all of the JL in my opinion.

I can't decide who would win, but I'm thinking Avengers would just get it, cause Thor is pretty much the most hardcore superhero, even though superman is indestructible, he still has bio-rythms that can be upset and stopped via electricity, God Vs Alien??? And the Hulk is strong enough to take out Wonder Woman or Green Lantern, maybe both? Just look at The Ultimate Avengers comic where Hulk just eats the big alien who plans destruction for earth?

Anyway, Any thoughts or other factors I've missed out, we'll leave the super-teams with these members for now, before seeing if the teams extended members would make a difference! Let's Go!

 

[Fred_Fury]

Pretty tuff choices here... I think it would be a good fight. Batman vs Captain America would be an awesome fight. but overall Im gonna have to say JL would win. Superman is just too overpowered, and Batman with prep time is unstoppable.

 

[Harlekin]

Justice League very very easily. The Avengers have absolutely no defense against telepathy.

 

[GL's Light]

Justice League. That Avengers lineup has three really powerful members - Hulk, Thor and Iron Man. That JL lineup, on the other hand, has five really powerful members - Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter and The Flash. The JL just has too much of a power advantage here.

 

[Cyrusbales]

Being honest though, is Flash really a powerful member? He's pretty poor in my opinion, he can run fast, but Hawkeye has shot down objects flying at hundreds of miles an hour before? Also Black widow does get an 'Iron-Woman' suit in the Ultimate avengers. Although the JL may have four super tough members, Hulk is easily one of the strongest of all comic characters, not to mention Thor being a God???

 

[GL's Light]

Flash moves a lot faster than hundreds of miles an hour. His speed is so off-the-scale that it makes him one of the most powerful superheroes around.

I don't know that Hulk is the strongest comic book character - I'd say it's a close call between Superman and Hulk. But Superman is more powerful overall given that he has other powers, like flight, superspeed and heat vision.

I have to say, I'm not really familiar with either the JLU TV series nor with Ultimate Avengers - I'm basing my judgments more on the classic comic book incarnations of the characters. That may throw my side of the conversation off.

 

[CrypticOne]

I'd have to go with the Ultimate Avengers. They seem more powerful to me. The only members that would be a challenge in my opinion to the Ultimate Avengers would be Superman, Batman, and Green Lantern. The Ultimate Avengers have a pretty solid line-up.

 

[Cyrusbales]

Another problem with Flash is his vulnerability to psychic attacks due to him being stupid, and Ironman has psychic assault tech that Stark ent, came up with, which can stop someone in pain for like 5 minutes while he get's decked by everyone else. Thor also stopped quicksilver who is really fast, by using his lightning, it took 3 attempts for quicksilver to get close. Also the leadership of the Avengers is solid, Capatain America has experience on his side, and after all is a combat legend!

 

[CanaryFan]

Ultimate Avengers get my vote.

 

[Harlekin]

Wow, the ignorance is astounding. Quicksilver gets to speed of sound, tops. Flash regularly goes for light speed. That's too fast for Thor. Superman, Wonder Woman and the Martian Manhunter all breach the speed of sound rather easily as well. Batman and Hawkgirl may be non-factors, but the Avengers are simply outclassed here.

Iron Man's armor is dismantled before he knows what's going on. Thor's belt and hammer are stolen before he can blink, the Hulk is kept busy while the Martian Manhunter starts picking off people with his telepathy. In the end, they all team-up on the Hulk.

 

[Cyrusbales]

Martain manhunters telepathy doesn't work due to Iron man's neural inhibitors (see Ultimate X-men Volume 5). And Thor can teleport pretty much anything anywhere, so off the flash goes to space, off batman goes to space etc, so they all get pretty much beaten. If we look at superman, his powers vary from story to story, in the new film he's strongert than he was before, but in the cartoon, every little super-lazer beam can floor him, yes he gets up again, but before the hulk eats him??? I think Captain America is underestimated here, although he has pretty weak abilities, he is a great leader, an even more superior tactician to batman and mr. fantastic even!!! The superior mindset here would become important as the battle would be tricky. Also everyone's forgot about wasp? If you try to catch her using the flash etc, you can't it's the smae way as raindrops being unable to hit flies, as the force of the rain pushes the fly aside. So the wasp would (I do understand she is laughably bad) piss people off and maybe get to burrough into someone's ear, probably martain manhunter as he wouldn't see it coming so she could get round his intangibility.

So many factors to consider.

 

[Harlekin]

Martain manhunters telepathy doesn't work due to Iron man's neural inhibitors (see Ultimate X-men Volume 5).

Flash removes the neural inhibitors in a second flat.

And Thor can teleport pretty much anything anywhere, so off the flash goes to space, off batman goes to space etc, so they all get pretty much beaten.

He'd never get a lock on Superman/WW/MM/Flash and GL would be able to teleport back.

If we look at superman, his powers vary from story to story, in the new film he's strongert than he was before, but in the cartoon, every little super-lazer beam can floor him, yes he gets up again, but before the hulk eats him???

Considering he has super speed, yes.

I think Captain America is underestimated here, although he has pretty weak abilities, he is a great leader, an even more superior tactician to batman and mr. fantastic even!!!

Not the ultimate version. He hasn't been in the field long enough to get that distinction.

The superior mindset here would become important as the battle would be tricky. Also everyone's forgot about wasp? If you try to catch her using the flash etc, you can't it's the smae way as raindrops being unable to hit flies, as the force of the rain pushes the fly aside. So the wasp would (I do understand she is laughably bad) piss people off and maybe get to burrough into someone's ear, probably martain manhunter as he wouldn't see it coming so she could get round his intangibility.

Unless of course he's intangible all the time, which he would be. Wasp is largely ineffective. Who you're all also forgetting is Green Lantern. Not only is the ring a great defensive weapon but also offensive. He can pretty much wrap anyone in his ring contstructs.

 

[Cyrusbales]

One addition to the avengers team, which is a common addition to the team, will rectify any doubts one has of the avengers supremacy, that is SCARLET WITCH. If we add her in, she just finds a reality where DC powers are weakened, and makes it happen (a bit cheaty, but she uses it to screw over magneto a few times!).

But back to the real question, WONDER WOMAN is about the same speed as Ultimate IRONMAN with his best suit, although IRONMAN is invisible(just for the record, I don't really like ironman), which gives him an edge, GL is an amazing character, so he'd be able to give a good fight, but HULK would keep him busy till his ring needed recharging. GL recently has seemed a lot weaker, for instance, when earth was invaded by the thangarians, a thangarian mace was able to take out his energy shield, and even temporarily destroy his ring , which kinda sucked since I knew he could take the guy! With this in mind, his power would be under scruitiny.

FLASH, yes he is fast, but lately the industry has toned down his powers, in fact in one episode of JL, it takes him five mins to catch up with a speeding car??? This annoyed me greatly, but it obviously shows that DC have thought about his light speed as a lilttle crazy, so they've toned it down. With him only being as fast as superman on a good day, they pose less of a threat, so thay should be kept busy by THOR, after all, he is a GOD, pretty hard to top that?

 

[Harlekin]

One addition to the avengers team, which is a common addition to the team, will rectify any doubts one has of the avengers supremacy, that is SCARLET WITCH. If we add her in, she just finds a reality where DC powers are weakened, and makes it happen (a bit cheaty, but she uses it to screw over magneto a few times!).

That would take a lot of power and concentration, during which she can be knocked out. Also, adding the Witch gives the Avengers more members than the League.

But back to the real question, WONDER WOMAN is about the same speed as Ultimate IRONMAN with his best suit, although IRONMAN is invisible(just for the record, I don't really like ironman), which gives him an edge, GL is an amazing character, so he'd be able to give a good fight, but HULK would keep him busy till his ring needed recharging. GL recently has seemed a lot weaker, for instance, when earth was invaded by the thangarians, a thangarian mace was able to take out his energy shield, and even temporarily destroy his ring , which kinda sucked since I knew he could take the guy! With this in mind, his power would be under scruitiny.

Who says GL needs to focus on the Hulk. He can easily pick off some lower level Avengers, or go toe to toe with Ultimate Thor while Superman deals with the Hulk.

FLASH, yes he is fast, but lately the industry has toned down his powers, in fact in one episode of JL, it takes him five mins to catch up with a speeding car??? This annoyed me greatly, but it obviously shows that DC have thought about his light speed as a lilttle crazy, so they've toned it down. With him only being as fast as superman on a good day, they pose less of a threat, so thay should be kept busy by THOR, after all, he is a GOD, pretty hard to top that?

Uhm, no, the Flash is still faster than Supes, even on the cartoon. This has always been the case, no matter the medium. Thor hasn't really shown himself to be on the same level as his 616 counterpart though, and I think he can be swiftly dealt with.

The Justice League simply have an advantage with superior strength and speed. If it comes squarely down to the big guns (the lower levels are going to be taken out in the crossfire), these are the ones that remain:

Avengers: Thor, Iron Man and Hulk.
Justice League: Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Flash and Green Lantern.

Three of them approach the Hulk in strength while being stronger than Thor and Iron Man, four of them are also faster than the Avengers' big guns, and they also have a numbers advantage.

 

[JackBauer]

this is so one sided towards the JL it's not even funny.

 

[JackBauer]

FLASH, yes he is fast, but lately the industry has toned down his powers, in fact in one episode of JL, it takes him five mins to catch up with a speeding car??? This annoyed me greatly, but it obviously shows that DC have thought about his light speed as a lilttle crazy, so they've toned it down. With him only being as fast as superman on a good day, they pose less of a threat, so thay should be kept busy by THOR, after all, he is a GOD, pretty hard to top that?

you also forget the Justice Lords episode, where Flash made his heart beat so fast that the medical sensor thingy couldn't even register it. that's not even on a good day.

 

[Harlekin]

Love the avatar Jack. I saw GQ again on TV like two days back.

 

[Cyrusbales]

Interesting point (good discussion BTW, we should get more people involved!), But the battlefield would be crucial for this fight, if the battlefield was large etc, than the speed would be less of an advantage as they could have a better preparation. Also the Avengers can block the sun using technology from STARK ENT. and also THOR, so Superman would be weakened. Although FLASH can run fast, some characters have very fast reflexes, one of IRNOMAN's suits gives him instantaneous reactions, not to mention a crippling force field, so flash would go to floor him and get fried and stunned, giving the avengers a chance to paste him nicely into the floor.

I can't really see how anyone can take out the hulk, specially after he injects himself with the super soldier serum aswell, his power just keeps growing the more you hit him, it'd take somelike like Rogue from X-men to take him out, he'd be able to take superman, with superior stamina, I think we shouldn't write off Black widow, who gains and 'Ironman' suit of her own, which basically makes her another IRONMAN, but with KGB training!

I think Martian Manhunter is probably the best on the JL, not just because he's insanely cool and brilliant, but his intangibility, although, certain energy blasts have knocked him into tangibility before, so IRONMAN would sort that out.

 

[Harlekin]

Interesting point (good discussion BTW, we should get more people involved!), But the battlefield would be crucial for this fight, if the battlefield was large etc, than the speed would be less of an advantage as they could have a better preparation. Also the Avengers can block the sun using technology from STARK ENT. and also THOR, so Superman would be weakened. Although FLASH can run fast, some characters have very fast reflexes, one of IRNOMAN's suits gives him instantaneous reactions, not to mention a crippling force field, so flash would go to floor him and get fried and stunned, giving the avengers a chance to paste him nicely into the floor.

Eclipsing the sun doesn't automatically rob Supes' of his powers. It takes a while. Considering you're obviously giving the Avengers prep, so should the JL, and then they wouldn't send Flash after Iron Man.

I can't really see how anyone can take out the hulk, specially after he injects himself with the super soldier serum aswell, his power just keeps growing the more you hit him, it'd take somelike like Rogue from X-men to take him out, he'd be able to take superman, with superior stamina, I think we shouldn't write off Black widow, who gains and 'Ironman' suit of her own, which basically makes her another IRONMAN, but with KGB training!

So, are we talking about the Ultimates, as in the comic, or the movie? I don't remember BW getting her Iron Man armor in the movie. Either way, Hulk can be teleported away by GL or other such interesting possibilities.

I think Martian Manhunter is probably the best on the JL, not just because he's insanely cool and brilliant, but his intangibility, although, certain energy blasts have knocked him into tangibility before, so IRONMAN would sort that out.

It'd take time though, and by that time MM can already have his hand stuck in Iron Man's heart.

 

[Cyrusbales]

We're using the Ultimate Avengers Comic atm, black widow gets her suit in either avengers 1, V2, or Avengers 2, V1 (I get confused, i read them all in a row). As soon as martain manhunter becomes tangible in ironman's heart, he'd get taken out aswell, the ironman suit would kill MM at the same time as Tony Stark is killed, good design feature! So they'd cancel each other out, which leaves BLACK WIDOW in her suit, so it's only really evened up the numbers.

HULK would get teleported back straight away by THOR, that's if GL can even teleport him with THOR around.

If we're being cheeky, THOR can teleport some cryptonite onto the battlefield, or alternatively, teleport superman further away, so his powers are depleted by the time he gets back, due to the lack of sun.

Also MM needs to concentrate to stay intangible, but radiowaves can disrupt this if I remember correctly, leaving him tangible and a vulnerable target. Also any damage done to IRONMAN or BLACK WIDOW, in their suits, can be supercharged again by THOR's lightning. THOR could use them as a conduit and have them supercharged, like ULTIMATE ELECTRO in spider-man who is surrounded by a mass of electricity.

Also Cpt America seems to be able to take a massive beating but always get up, the closest i've seen him come to being beaten recently (apart from HULK and THOR) was Wolverine, and then he just got up after being stabbed loads, his super-serum does make him a player, easily able to kncok out all the lower players in the JL.

 

[yenaled]

Harlekin is right, the Avengers are just outclassed.

The big 7 version of the league are incredibly powerful (even if Hawkgirl is in for Aquaman) and surely Martian Manhunter could just reduce Hulk down to Bruce Banner - he's been able almost passivly effect peoples emotions before so I'm sure it won't be much trouble for him.

I don't think you can just go keep adding people to the Avengers team till they have enough man power to win, you already started them off with one more person

 

[Cyrusbales]

Everyone seems to underestimate STARK ENT. technology, they pretty much cancelled out psychic powers, there's no reason they can't super piss off HULk psychiclly before the fight! If they can subdue phoenix and Prof X's psychic abilities, MM shouldn't be a problem!

 

[CanaryFan]

As far as The Flash in the cartoon goes, did you see the episode where he took out Darksied? Flash can travel faster than the speed of light but he endangers his life when he does so and was quoted as saying "I can never go that fast again."

Now back to the general topic.
Thor should be more than Superman can handle, Nothing Green Lantern can do with his ring would stop the hulk, Captian America easily beats Batman, Giant man and the Wasp would hold off WonderWoman until some of the others finished off their opponant and then she'd have no chance, Black Widow would do the same to Hawkgirl, Iron Mans armor would protect him from the Martian Manhunter and he'd find a way to beat him, lord knows somebody always does. Flash would be running around in circles looking for sombody he could fight and Thor would blast him with a lightning bolt in between blows to Supermans melon.

Stealing Thor's hammer is out of the question. Not even Superman or Wonder Woman could lift it never mind Flash.

Now if we add the Scarlet Witch into the equasion(kind of cheating since she wasn't in the original question or ultimate Avengers) Her mutant hexes and cammand over arcane magic would be alot for anyone to deal with however she's as vulnerable to any attack as any mortal woman but she would probably take down somebody, almost anybody on the other team, before they got to her. Where does the battle take place cuase we learned in JLA vs Avengers that the caos magics are different in the DC universe and they gave her a huge power boost which made her one of the most powerful characters in that story arc.

Do the teams know each other and each others abilities or are the fighting blindly? I could see either team winning if they were prepared but I think the Avengers have more solid and consistant teamwork and strategy and I think they would definately take it in a first meeting type of battle.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

As far as The Flash in the cartoon goes, did you see the episode where he took out Darksied? Flash can travel faster than the speed of light but he endangers his life when he does so and was quoted as saying "I can never go that fast again."

That was the Lex/Brainiac combo, actually. And that just proves how much the cartoon Flash sucks, really. He managed to get near to his comic counterpart's power level once, and then he was immediately bumped back down to having trouble catching up to a speeding van.

 

[CanaryFan]

That was the Lex/Brainiac combo, actually.

No it wasn't, not in the episode I'm talking about.