JL Vs ULTIMATE AVENGERS???

He actually says "I can never go that fast again" in the Lex/Brainiac episode. He beats the crap out of L/B and disappears into the Speed Force, then the rest of the core JL members band together and pull him back out of the SF. He says something like, "I can never go that fast again. If I do... I don't think I'm coming back." I don't recall his ever saying similar lines to that in any episode with Darkseid.
 
Cyrusbales said:
We're using the Ultimate Avengers Comic atm, black widow gets her suit in either avengers 1, V2, or Avengers 2, V1 (I get confused, i read them all in a row). As soon as martain manhunter becomes tangible in ironman's heart, he'd get taken out aswell, the ironman suit would kill MM at the same time as Tony Stark is killed, good design feature! So they'd cancel each other out, which leaves BLACK WIDOW in her suit, so it's only really evened up the numbers.
Well, the comic is called Ultimates actually, and she got the outfit in Ultimates 2. If we're using the comic version of the Ultimates though, it's only fair to use the comic version of the Justice League as well, which drastically changes the equation, since their feats are sometimes more consistant.

HULK would get teleported back straight away by THOR, that's if GL can even teleport him with THOR around.
Who says Thor would get the chance?

If we're being cheeky, THOR can teleport some cryptonite onto the battlefield, or alternatively, teleport superman further away, so his powers are depleted by the time he gets back, due to the lack of sun.
A) It's Kryptonite.
B) Thor wouldn't know about Kryptonite.

Also MM needs to concentrate to stay intangible, but radiowaves can disrupt this if I remember correctly, leaving him tangible and a vulnerable target.
J'onn hardly needs to concentrate.

Also Cpt America seems to be able to take a massive beating but always get up, the closest i've seen him come to being beaten recently (apart from HULK and THOR) was Wolverine, and then he just got up after being stabbed loads, his super-serum does make him a player, easily able to kncok out all the lower players in the JL.
Captain America is indeed a tough one, but can be taken out if Hawkgirl and Batman teamed up on him. Even if he's capable of beating them, he's completely and utterly ineffective against the big hitters.

CanaryFan said:
Now back to the general topic.
Thor should be more than Superman can handle, Nothing Green Lantern can do with his ring would stop the hulk, Captian America easily beats Batman, Giant man and the Wasp would hold off WonderWoman until some of the others finished off their opponant and then she'd have no chance, Black Widow would do the same to Hawkgirl, Iron Mans armor would protect him from the Martian Manhunter and he'd find a way to beat him, lord knows somebody always does. Flash would be running around in circles looking for sombody he could fight and Thor would blast him with a lightning bolt in between blows to Supermans melon.
- There's no way Thor is going to be able to hit Flash. He had a lucky shot against Quicksilver, and Flash is quite a lot faster than him.
- Cap easily beats Bats? I don't think so. It'd be a tough fight. Cap would win, but not easily.
- Giant-Man and Wasp don't even approach Wonder Woman. Heck, Giant-Man would be lying on the ground in second. He'd be unable to dodge WW and he hasn't a chance of hitting her, or hurting her. They're out of her league.
- How would Iron Man's armor protect him from J'onn putting his hand in his heart (giving him a seizure, and he doesn't necessarily have to kill Tony)? It's something Cyrus has also postulated, but I see no way in which the armor would protect him. Beyond that, MM also superstrength and superspeed better if not on par with IM.
- Ultimate Thor isn't on the level of 616 Thor. Superman can handle him. Ultimate Thor hardly proved much of a match for the Hulk.

Stealing Thor's hammer is out of the question. Not even Superman or Wonder Woman could lift it never mind Flash.
Considering there is absolutely no idea if Thor's hammer is scientific or magic, and if it has a worthiness clause, at least Supes and WW could lift it, since they're on par with or stronger than Thor.

Now if we add the Scarlet Witch into the equasion(kind of cheating since she wasn't in the original question or ultimate Avengers) Her mutant hexes and cammand over arcane magic would be alot for anyone to deal with however she's as vulnerable to any attack as any mortal woman but she would probably take down somebody, almost anybody on the other team, before they got to her. Where does the battle take place cuase we learned in JLA vs Avengers that the caos magics are different in the DC universe and they gave her a huge power boost which made her one of the most powerful characters in that story arc.
But this is Ultimate Scarlet Witch, who as far as I know, simply has her mutant power. She could take down a few low-levels, but she'd easily be taken out by the big guns. Her inclusion would also give the Ultimates 10 members as opposed to the JL, who have 7 members. If the JL gets three more members, their decimation of the Ultimates is even more apparent.

Do the teams know each other and each others abilities or are the fighting blindly? I could see either team winning if they were prepared but I think the Avengers have more solid and consistant teamwork and strategy and I think they would definately take it in a first meeting type of battle.
You're kidding me, right? Most of the Ultimates hate each others' guts.
 
THOR is the only one able to lift his hammer because he is a God, only God's are supposed to be able to lift it.

I think THOR is constantly understimated, he is a GOD??? I understand superman is tough, but I can't see how he can defeat a GOD?

If IRONMAN and BLACK WIDOW's suits are super conduits(via THOR), then it'd be impossbile to approach them. Also BLACK WIDOW knows about kryptonite due to working for the KGB, assuming Marvel and DC could meet, the respective governments of countries would gain the knowledge.

If a remote amount of time was given to prepare, Avengers have more resources due to SHIELD etc, so they would have Kryptonite suits etc.

(Just a random thought, how come Lex Luthor never makes Kryptonite nerve gas?)

FLASH is too prone to making mistakes and is a liability on the JL, he disables them making any extensive plans.

For this battle MM is better off staying tangible and using his strength, and the Avengers have the best human shield ever, HULK, who actually gets more powerful with each hit, quite a good shield in my opinion!

We'll avoid exapanding the teams with Scarlet witch etc, otherwise we'll end up with a DC V Marvel fight which would fall to Marvel too easily thanks to PROTEUS. (And that'd be just getting silly!)

THOR could teleport GL's ring, that'd screw him over a little bit? I don't see why GL's teleportation is presumed better than THOR's, it's a case of Alien tech Vs a GOD again.

My money is always on the GOD!
 
I haven't heard anything about Thor being the only one capable of lifting his hammer in the Ultimate universe. All of his powers in the Ultimate universe come from his belt and the hammer, too. Separate those from him and he's basically useless.
 
The reason for this is that LOKI has morphed reality, so that's why his powers are within the belt and hammer, damn that LOKI, but we're take the non-LOKI-corruption version of THOR!
 
Cyrusbales said:
The reason for this is that LOKI has morphed reality, so that's why his powers are within the belt and hammer, damn that LOKI, but we're take the non-LOKI-corruption version of THOR!
There is no non-Loki-corruption version. We've never seen it, so for now, it doesn't exist.

Also, the JL regularly make gods their *****. Superman can handle Ultimate Thor, who hasn't really been shown to be anything all that special. Also, if you're really wondering why GL's teleporting would be more effective (Thor isn't even capable of doing teleporting on such minute level) you really need to bone up on your DC history and characters.

Besides, if we use the comic versions of the Ultimates, we also use the comic version of the League, which makes the fight even more in the favour of the League.

Lastly, standard VS battle rule is that the fight would be held on neutral ground, on a neutral world, with just their own universe's resources. That means:
A) The ultimate universe has no Kryptonite.
B) Thor wouldn't know about Kryptonite.
 
Fair enough, but either way, the battle is impossible to call, each team has so many advantages over the other, if they fought twice the outcome would be different each time. The fact that there is a debate means it's not cut and dry, nevertheless, I'd like to see the battle, and the battle does revolve a lot around the versions of the charatcers you use.

My personal opinion is Avengers, but I can easily see why JL could win, it's been an intersting debate, but anything more and we go round in circles!

Thanks people!
 
Cyrusbales said:
Fair enough, but either way, the battle is impossible to call, each team has so many advantages over the other, if they fought twice the outcome would be different each time. The fact that there is a debate means it's not cut and dry, nevertheless, I'd like to see the battle, and the battle does revolve a lot around the versions of the charatcers you use.

My personal opinion is Avengers, but I can easily see why JL could win, it's been an intersting debate, but anything more and we go round in circles!

Thanks people!

I'm going to do you a favor, Cyrus. I'm going to tell you to take $10 and pick up JLA vol. 1: New World Order by Grant Morrison and Howard Porter.

In it, Flash races a guy named Zum, who despite being faster than Superman, cannot even keep pace with the Flash. Wally West ends up running around the world at near-light speed, just enough to build up infinite mass and punch Zum with it, sending said evil speedster into orbit.

The fight took less than five minutes, and the Flash was losing for most of it. Oh, and that infinite mass punch trick? He said he could do it thousands of times before the first one would even register.

To pair this fight down even more, the Avengers have no one capable of moving faster than human thought. The Justice League have four (Martian Manhunter, Superman, Wonder Woman, and the Flash).

Now, that's comics Justice League. And if you want to throw in Scarlet Witch and her reality manipulation shenanigans, recall that the Spectre and the Phantom Stranger are Justice League reservists. Also, there's that Zauriel guy, who happens to be an actual, living Angel from heaven itself.

The most powerful lineup of the Avengers, with each individual character at thier most powerful, will draw even with the Justice League under the same circumstances. Unless you heavily imbalance either side (say, classic Avengers v. Justice League Detroit or New Avengers v. Big Seven), the Justice League should take a majority of the fights.
 
Phantom stranger, now he's cool! I just wanted to start a debate and it seems to have worked, Either way, I still think a comic of JL VS avengers would be awesome!
 
Harlekin said:
- There's no way Thor is going to be able to hit Flash. He had a lucky shot against Quicksilver, and Flash is quite a lot faster than him.

I basing my opinion on what I think would happen if the characters were real, not on what some idiot writer wrote in the past to make Quicksilver look good. Lightning travels at the speed of light so Quicksilver should have been down (and dead) from a single shot. Likewise the Flash, who can reach light speed but doesn't normally move that fast, could be hit with a single shot and since he wouldn't know it was coming most likely he would get nailed.

- Cap easily beats Bats? I don't think so. It'd be a tough fight. Cap would win, but not easily.

Either way he comes out on top.

- Giant-Man and Wasp don't even approach Wonder Woman. Heck, Giant-Man would be lying on the ground in second. He'd be unable to dodge WW and he hasn't a chance of hitting her, or hurting her. They're out of her league.

I think you mean she's out of their league and I agree but between the two of them they could keep her busy for awhile. They have gone up against some tough foes and made a good fight out of it.


- How would Iron Man's armor protect him from J'onn putting his hand in his heart (giving him a seizure, and he doesn't necessarily have to kill Tony)? It's something Cyrus has also postulated, but I see no way in which the armor would protect him. Beyond that, MM also superstrength and superspeed better if not on par with IM.

Various energy blast have hurt Martian Manhunter even when intangible. Iron man would find away to hurt him. He's used his armor to jam telepathy in the past as well.

- Ultimate Thor isn't on the level of 616 Thor. Superman can handle him. Ultimate Thor hardly proved much of a match for the Hulk.

I'm not an Ultimates expert but going by the Ultimate Avengers movie which is based on Ultimates Thor is definitely a match for Hulk. He was trouncing him with his hammer and still beating him without it until Hulk got a hold of the hammer and nailed him.


Considering there is absolutely no idea if Thor's hammer is scientific or magic, and if it has a worthiness clause, at least Supes and WW could lift it, since they're on par with or stronger than Thor.

Again referring to the movie Hulk was at the peak of his rage when he went for Thor's hammer and he had to struggle like hell to lift it. As he tried to lift it Thor sat back and commented that nobody else could lift his hammer. Magical enchantment or scientific defense mechanism, I don't know but the protection is there. Flash, Batman, Hawkgirl, Martian Manhunter and even Wonder Woman have no chance of lifting it. Superman could probably do what Hulk did if he got the right opportunity but there is no chance he could zip by and steal it away or even take it from him during a struggle. When Hulk did it he was sent reeling and landed near the hammer and Thor didn't think he could lift it so he didn't take immediate action when Hulk went for it. Superman would need an opportunity like that to take the hammer and having learned from his experience with the Hulk, if Thor saw someone with Supermans Power going for the hammer he would attack immediately before he could get the hammer up and swinging. This would be the best match up of the fight but I would bet on Thor.
 
CanaryFan said:
I basing my opinion on what I think would happen if the characters were real, not on what some idiot writer wrote in the past to make Quicksilver look good.
Well, that's just stupid, then. Debating vs fights are based on what is portrayed in the comics. Half of what the Flash does isn't realistically possible, yet it's done. 'If the characters were real' is too variable while what happens in the comic is pretty clear cut. I'd also be hesitant to call Mark Millar an idiot writer.

Lightning travels at the speed of light so Quicksilver should have been down (and dead) from a single shot. Likewise the Flash, who can reach light speed but doesn't normally move that fast, could be hit with a single shot and since he wouldn't know it was coming most likely he would get nailed.
If Quicksilver can, so can Flash. That simple. Besides, it's not like Flash hasn't dodged lightning before (like when say, fighting Weather Wizard?).

I think you mean she's out of their league and I agree but between the two of them they could keep her busy for awhile. They have gone up against some tough foes and made a good fight out of it.
Uhm, no. :confused: They are definitely out of her league. They can't hurt her and she can hurt them. She's got superior speed and strength, so Giant-Man would be pretty easy. The Wasp is a bit more of a problem, but ineffective against WW. We're still talking Ultimates version here.

Various energy blast have hurt Martian Manhunter even when intangible. Iron man would find away to hurt him. He's used his armor to jam telepathy in the past as well.
But really, how is he going to find the time? The Manhunter is easily quite superior in speed.

I'm not an Ultimates expert but going by the Ultimate Avengers movie which is based on Ultimates Thor is definitely a match for Hulk. [...] This would be the best match up of the fight but I would bet on Thor.
Even then, Thor's power source is in the belt he wears. Quicksilver took it, instantly robbing him of his powers. Supes, Flash, WW and Manhunter, all who are at least twice as fast as Quickie can do this easily.
 
Harlekin said:
Well, that's just stupid, then. Debating vs fights are based on what is portrayed in the comics.

Sometimes writers have to find a roll for a character in a story and they end up writting something stupid to make it seem like that character mattered.Quicksilver dodging lightning is such a case. The Flash might fair better but since he couldn't hurt Thor sooner or later he'd get nailed.

Uhm, no. :confused: They are definitely out of her league. They can't hurt her and she can hurt them. She's got superior speed and strength, so Giant-Man would be pretty easy. The Wasp is a bit more of a problem, but ineffective against WW. We're still talking Ultimates version here.

When you say someone's out of your league that means they're to good for you. When you say Giantman and Wasp are out of her league that means you think Giantman and Wasp would win. You have to say that Wonder Woman is out of their league or they're not in Wonder Womans League.

Even then, Thor's power source is in the belt he wears. Quicksilver took it, instantly robbing him of his powers. Supes, Flash, WW and Manhunter, all who are at least twice as fast as Quickie can do this easily.

I don't remember Wonder Woman ever being THAT fast. In any case who on the Justice League is going to know that Thor's power lies in his belt?
 
CanaryFan said:
Sometimes writers have to find a roll for a character in a story and they end up writting something stupid to make it seem like that character mattered.Quicksilver dodging lightning is such a case. The Flash might fair better but since he couldn't hurt Thor sooner or later he'd get nailed.
Of course Flash can hurt Thor. Infinite Mass Punch anybody?

When you say someone's out of your league that means they're to good for you. When you say Giantman and Wasp are out of her league that means you think Giantman and Wasp would win. You have to say that Wonder Woman is out of their league or they're not in Wonder Womans League.
Ah, of course. They're not in her league.

I don't remember Wonder Woman ever being THAT fast. In any case who on the Justice League is going to know that Thor's power lies in his belt?
She's just as fast as MM. And it wouldn't be too unusual to see a big belt of power and a hammer, and to then imagine they would be the source of his power. Also, the mythological Thor's power was in his belt and hammer. They're not the same, but it's a basis. I'd certainly think: "Well, the mythological Thor was fueled by his belt and hammer, maybe this guy is too."
 
Hilarious this is even a match the Ultimates are Curb stomped, Superman alone would beat them all if it's the comic version. It would hit them all before the could react. MM could do the same as could Wonderwoman or Wally. MM could knock them all out with telepathy. It's a joke. Infinite mass puch all round = dead ultimates. GL, Supes and Wonderwoman can move Moons. I think Superman etc are so much stronger it's a ridiculous match up.

e.g.

In JLA # 58, Superman , Wonder Woman and Green Lantern collaborated to tow Earth's moon a distance of 238,900 miles in mere seconds, indicating a fantastic acceleration, and then pulled the moon out of Earth's gravity (which increases its weight tremendously). As he is universally regarded as the JLA's most powerful member, I'm inclined to give Superman more than one-third, and - conservatively - about one-half, the work effort. In the Lex 2000 special, with a single strike, Superman split one of Saturn's moons in half. Saturn's moons are small moons.

and Speed

Lex 2000 special: Superman made the trip from Earth to Saturn in well under 4 minutes. By comparison, light takes about 19 minutes to make this trip. He was pissed at the time.

Why the Flash can win alone, takn from another Forum

A description of his powers: (Background makes it hard to read)

> Flash Respect Thread Prelude:
>
> Powers:
>
> Superspeed
> Wally West is the Fastest Man Alive, and so far as is known, the Fastest Man Ever. He is capable of moving at just under the speed of light, and in truth his top speed, if he has one, is hard to guage since once he goes beyond lightspeed, he enters the Speed Force. As far as is known Wally is the only speedster to enter the Speed Force entirely and re-emerge, which helps account for his incredible gifts. His connection he has with the Speed Force is stronger than any known person has ever attained. It's far more than enough to allow Wally West to run up sheer or even upside-down surfaces to defy gravity, or to allow him to run over liquids as if they were as firm as concrete. He can catch bullets out of the air as if they were stationary, and could quite probably dodge lasers.
>
> Molecular control
> The gifts of the Speed Force include the ability to control every molecule of Wally's body to where they can be vibrated and made to phase through solid matter. These days, doing so can charge whatever he phases through with kinetic energy and cause that matter to explode violently. This is both a good and bad thing, in that he can use the ability to charge matter to explode as a weapon, but in doing so he harms whatever he phases through. Since the Flash's recent increase in speed, his control has been enhanced to where he may choose either to kinetically charge what he vibrates through, or not do so and pass through solid matter harmlessly. Another facet of his molecular control is that Wally can vibrate himself to where his body becomes invisible and light just passes through it. Yet another ability related to his vibrational molecular control is that Wally can attune his ears and eyes to hear and see the vibrations of radio waves or other forms of light, thereby tuning into any frequencies he cares to listen to or see just as if they were normal sound and light. Through the control of his vibrations, he is even able to heat up substances that he touches or impart heat energy into an object on contact.
>
> Turbocharged brain
> When Wally moves into superspeed his perceptions change radically and the world appears to move by at a snail's pace. If he's going fast enough, the world even seems to have frozen. This altering of perception is vital in order for Wally to function at the extreme speeds that he can reach, and allows him to manage his movements and environment with awareness and accuracy. It's also a power that he can activate without physically moving any faster, throwing his thought processes into overdrive to where his perceptions and thoughts fire off faster than the processes of a supercomputer. He can, if he chooses, read a book (a big one like Lord of the Rings) in less than a second with full comprehension and the only speed motion required being the turning of the pages.
>
> Speed force aura
> When moving at superspeed, Wally West is able to surround himself with an aura of Speed Force Energy. It extends out from his body enough to cover objects or even persons carried by him, and allows him to treat them as extensions of his person for purposes of speed powers. The aura also protects Wally from the effects of hitting stationary objects (so instead of turning to hamburger he'd just hit as if he were running normally and ran into it) and keeps his passing from causing sonic booms and massive collateral damage everywhere he goes at superspeed. The aura can be controlled to where such sonic booms and effects on the environment are allowed, however.
>
> Kinetic energy control
> Wally West is able to both steal and give energy of motion from and to an object. He can take the velocity out of a moving object and cause it to stand still as well as charge an object with motion and propel it into possibly ridiculous amounts of speed. This is only possible in either case with objects that happen to be or are caught in Wally's wake as he passes or moves over them. In a sense it's really contact and proximity to his Speed Force Aura that enables him to add to or take away from the velocity of other objects, and he can either drag objects behind him at his speed or move past an already-moving object and take its speed away to leave it standing motionless behind.
>
> Speed tricks
> Among the various tricks that Wally can perform with his powers are:
>
> The Snap - Where through manipulation of the Speed Force Aura and a superspeed motion (often a snap of the fingers or clap of the hands) Wally causes a deafening and highly damaging sonic boom that can knock down walls and stun opponents.
>
> Cyclones - Where through moving his limbs in various fashions the Flash may cause extreme winds that can blow about objects with force similar to a tornado.
>
> Dismantling - Where through a simple series of appropriate motion Wally just dissects things like cars, weapons, furniture, down to the limit of his understanding of how to take apart a given device or object. That's assuming he wants it to be able to work when reassembled...
>
> Bombs - Where through taking advantage of the explosive kinetic charge that Wally endows an object by phasing through it, he intentionally charges things to explode in order to use them as weapons. They can be as simple as walls or trees, or as clever as throwing a rock without opening his fist and letting that rock phase through his fingers, charged to explode as it hurtles toward its intended target.
>
> Vibro Hands - Where Wally can saw through solid objects with his hands (as an example) by vibrating his body and basically blasting his way through said object on contact.
>
> Hot Touch - Where through vibrational control, Wally can heat up an object as much or as little as he likes just by touching it and concentrating on the energy he imparts to it.
>
> Speed force suit
> Through his control of Speed Force Energy, Wally is able to form a suit around his body in the approximate shape and color of his original Flash suit he inherited from Barry, only made of pure Speed Energy. This suit is more convenient than the old ring-pop-out suit, and it is capable of acting like armor to absorb great amounts of kinetic energy.
>
> Healing
> Wally is able to use the Speed Force in order to speed up the healing of injuries to himself. In essence, he is able to heal minor cuts, abrasions, and bruises in a matter of minutes. More major or deep wounds might take hours. The greatest limit to this ability are broken bones, as they take much longer to heal...perhaps days or weeks in spite of his powers of speed and healing.
>
> Sustenance
> Through his link with the Speed Force, Wally is able to draw sustenance from that energy field that allows his body to channel Speed Force Energy without having to stuff his body with carbs and food to keep going. It also provides him with the needed energy to keep running and running even if it's all the way around the globe.
>
> Time travel
> Wally West can travel through time in three ways:
>
> Speed Force - By reaching the Speed Force and bouncing off of the barrier at the edge of it, Wally will often skip forward or back in time unpredictably. Alternately he can cross that barrier and enter the Speed Force entirely, then exit to any possible point in history. Unfortunately by this method the Speed Force has a way of controlling when he comes out and ends up. About his best bet in doing this is to run right along the Speed Force wall. Doing so, Wally can read the different eras that he passes up and just stop at the one he wants. So far, Wally is the only speedster that can reliably perform this mode of time travel.
>
> Temporal Vibrations - By attuning his physical vibrations to those of another timeframe, Wally can basically fade into another time/dimension. The only trouble doing this is that he doesn't necessarily know the proper vibration for a given time in a given dimension, and just experimenting with different vibrations to see where you end up is about as smart as stabbing yourself in the brain with a needle to see what cool things you can make your leg do.
>
> Cosmic Treadmill - By using this invention of Barry Allen's, Wally has only to get on the treadmill, set it to the time and place he wants to go, and run to power it. It's been the cause of a few excellent adventures, as well as some bogus journeys.
>
> Speed force attunement
> Because of his link with the Speed Force, Wally West is able to commune with it and sense and track any speedster, no matter when or where they are. It's a subtle but very useful aspect of his power.
>
> Quick formula
> Wally knows the speed formula which gave Johnny and Jesse Quick their speed. He doesn't use it often, and the first time was to give him an extra boost on top of his natural superspeed and to help him reach the Speed Force. Since then, his natural speed has been adequate to get there alone, so he's never had to use it. He still knows the formula, however, and by reciting the equation "3x2(9yz)4a" and conceptualizing the fourth dimensional construct that goes with it, Wally can stack the added superspeed of the Quick's on top of his own. A side effect of when he does this is that for a brief moment, time is frozen for everyone except Wally during which the added link to the Speed Force seems to interfere with his natural one, or perhaps elbows it aside for a bit in order to provide its form of superspeed. The effect is unnoticeable to anyone in the normal timestream, however, and as soon as the "time-hiccup" or whatever one calls it passes, Wally has extra superspeed. This added link to the Speed Force neither supercedes nor interferes with his natural link besides that momentary timefreeze, and it allows him all of the normal powers that he normally has with his own superspeed.

- Whirly
 
Just a side note, if the avengers were to win, they'd do it in much more style, you have to give them credit for being much cooler than the JL, who are all just super-strength etc, the avengers have a more diverse range of characters in my opinion, just a brief side not.
 
Cyrusbales said:
Just a side note, if the avengers were to win, they'd do it in much more style, you have to give them credit for being much cooler than the JL, who are all just super-strength etc, the avengers have a more diverse range of characters in my opinion, just a brief side not.
Uhm, you don't really know much about the JL do you? They're hardly just a team of people with super-strength etc. Also, if we're counting the entire Justice League, both are just as diverse. The JL rocks.
 
let's look at this logically.

ultimates had a hard time going up against a singular hulk or a singular thor, right.

now arguable, superman, wonderwoman, gl, mm and the flash are all at least on the same level of trouble as either the hulk or thor.

the ultimates would have trouble dealing with one member, let alone the big 7, no matter how much prep time they had.

heck, look at how the x-men dealt with them in ultimate war and the ultimates had an amazing overall advantage.

Justice league, any form, animated or comics take this one. ultimates loose, any form, animated or comic wise.

the gap is too large.
 
I think that if it were a JL Vs avengers comic, the JL would win, and if it were the Avengers Vs JL, the avengers would win. It's easy to make either team win, depending on how you write it. That's also why the X-men beat the ultimates in the X-men comic. It's all to do with allegiance.

Just for the record, JL do rock, although i prefer the JSA, cause spectre is awesome.
 
I just thought about the only place where avengers and JL have comparable stats, it's a bit sad but it's top trumps, i'll put the stats out here. I've left off height. It's just to try and add some new light on stuff, please discuss!


Superman
int:7
Str:50
Speed:19
Agility:21
fighting skills: 87

Flash
int: 4
str:27
Speed:20
agility:25
fighting:79

GL
int:4
str:26
Speed:10
Agility:12
Fight:80

hawkgirl:
int:3
str:27
speed:7
agility:17
fight:71

wonder woman
int:7
Str:41
Speed:18
agility:19
fight:78

MM
int:6
str:46
Speed:18
Agility:21
Fight:85

batman
int:8
Str:31
Speed:7
Agility:17
Fight:92


CPT america
int:4
str:29
speed:6
Agility:16
Fight:86

Giant man
int:9
Str:47
Speed:13
Agility:19
Fight:79

Ironman
int:6
Str:48
Speed:2
Agility:12
Fight:85

Thor
int:4
Str:49
Speed:9
Agility:19
fight:85

hulk
int:2
str:50
Speed:6
Agility:16
fight:73

Widow
int:4
Str:12(lol)
speed:5
agility:15
fight:72

wasp
int:3
str:15
speed:9
agility:22
fight:48

hawkeye
int:3
str:26
speed:4
agility:16
Fight:80
 
Cyrusbales said:
I just thought about the only place where avengers and JL have comparable stats, it's a bit sad but it's top trumps, i'll put the stats out here. I've left off height. It's just to try and add some new light on stuff, please discuss!


Superman
int:7
Str:50
Speed:19
Agility:21
fighting skills: 87

Flash
int: 4
str:27
Speed:20
agility:25
fighting:79

GL
int:4
str:26
Speed:10
Agility:12
Fight:80

hawkgirl:
int:3
str:27
speed:7
agility:17
fight:71

wonder woman
int:7
Str:41
Speed:18
agility:19
fight:78

MM
int:6
str:46
Speed:18
Agility:21
Fight:85

batman
int:8
Str:31
Speed:7
Agility:17
Fight:92


CPT america
int:4
str:29
speed:6
Agility:16
Fight:86

Giant man
int:9
Str:47
Speed:13
Agility:19
Fight:79

Ironman
int:6
Str:48
Speed:2
Agility:12
Fight:85

Thor
int:4
Str:49
Speed:9
Agility:19
fight:85

hulk
int:2
str:50
Speed:6
Agility:16
fight:73

Widow
int:4
Str:12(lol)
speed:5
agility:15
fight:72

wasp
int:3
str:15
speed:9
agility:22
fight:48

hawkeye
int:3
str:26
speed:4
agility:16
Fight:80

Which GL is as dumb as the Flash and how the hell is Hawkgirl even dubmer? Flash and Batman are better fighters than WonderWoman? I'm not sure what they're calling agility but to say that Hulk has more agility than most of the Avengers seems a bit odd. I think these stats are bogus.
 
i just copied them from the cards! it's GL John btw. I think there are some interesting points here, like giant man's strength maybe? and hawk girl does seem kinda dumb to me, likewise with the flash, but a few stats do raise eyebrows, like how can batman be stronger than a super soldier CPT america? just thought i'd add this in anyway, see what it throws up.
 
Cyrusbales said:
i just copied them from the cards! it's GL John btw. I think there are some interesting points here, like giant man's strength maybe? and hawk girl does seem kinda dumb to me, likewise with the flash, but a few stats do raise eyebrows, like how can batman be stronger than a super soldier CPT america? just thought i'd add this in anyway, see what it throws up.

lol you really haven't been reading comics long.

JJ's telepathy would own the Ultimates

http://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?image=malefic46yz.jpg

JJ isn't very succepatble to fire these days his just held off the Bull host of Angels here. Angels>Avengers

He would beat the Ultimates alone in seconds

http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jlaparadiselost003092cs.jpg

Maybe nano seconds, god he's fast

http://img44.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc144&image=852_JLA057_10_11.jpg

and can be very strong

http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=japan59bu1ok.jpg

- Whirly
 
Cyrusbales said:
I just thought about the only place where avengers and JL have comparable stats, it's a bit sad but it's top trumps, i'll put the stats out here. I've left off height. It's just to try and add some new light on stuff, please discuss!


Superman
int:7
Str:50
Speed:19
Agility:21
fighting skills: 87

Flash
int: 4
str:27
Speed:20
agility:25
fighting:79

GL
int:4
str:26
Speed:10
Agility:12
Fight:80

hawkgirl:
int:3
str:27
speed:7
agility:17
fight:71

wonder woman
int:7
Str:41
Speed:18
agility:19
fight:78

MM
int:6
str:46
Speed:18
Agility:21
Fight:85

batman
int:8
Str:31
Speed:7
Agility:17
Fight:92


CPT america
int:4
str:29
speed:6
Agility:16
Fight:86

Giant man
int:9
Str:47
Speed:13
Agility:19
Fight:79

Ironman
int:6
Str:48
Speed:2
Agility:12
Fight:85

Thor
int:4
Str:49
Speed:9
Agility:19
fight:85

hulk
int:2
str:50
Speed:6
Agility:16
fight:73

Widow
int:4
Str:12(lol)
speed:5
agility:15
fight:72

wasp
int:3
str:15
speed:9
agility:22
fight:48

hawkeye
int:3
str:26
speed:4
agility:16
Fight:80

Hulk's stronger then that:o 70 would be appropreiate. Same goes for Superman (65-70)
 
for the stats, str is out of 50, inteligence out of 10, agility out of20, speed out of 30 fighting skill sout of 100
 

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