Joe Quesada out as Editor in Chief.

[hippie_hunter]

You also saw him unmask too, which was a terrible idea.

I completely disagree, I think that if handled properly, unmasking Spider-Man could have been one of the best things to have ever happened to the character. Of course they had to ruin it with OMD.

 

[kguillou]

Well, i dont wana get into yet another OMD debate but i think the unmasking would have led to a few years of great stories but after that it would have been a dead end. There had to have been some sort of endgame at some point to fix it. Spiderman couldnt possibly operate forever with a public identity, he wouldve essentially been what DD is now.

 

[Franklin Richards]

He could have joined the Fantastic Four and grew up. Lot's of things could have happened. That's just off the top of my head.

But I like the status quo too. So...

 

[hippie_hunter]

Well, i dont wana get into yet another OMD debate but i think the unmasking would have led to a few years of great stories but after that it would have been a dead end. There had to have been some sort of endgame at some point to fix it. Spiderman couldnt possibly operate forever with a public identity, he wouldve essentially been what DD is now.

I think that with the Avengers by his side, I think that Spider-Man could have prevailed with a public identity. He lived in Avengers Tower so Aunt May and Mary Jane were safe (that and I also think that most villains would tend to think like the Rogues when it comes to attacking family members).

What made Daredevil utterly fail was that he was alone and he wouldn't let people in. Spider-Man isn't alone. Sure he couldn't do things like be a teacher, but he could get paid to be a superhero. Continue using his knowledge in science working for Stark. It would be a great way for Spider-Man to live with the love and acceptance of NYC as opposed to everyone constantly hating him.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Not really. Spider-Man has crashed and burned as a franchise. Before Brand New Day, Spider-Man sales were rather healthy.

Before BND, comic sales in general were rather healthy. Sales started to slip all around for both Marvel AND dc around that time, due mostly to the economy.

Mind you; I'm in complete agreement with you in regards to Spidey's current state. Just sayin'.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Well, i dont wana get into yet another OMD debate but i think the unmasking would have led to a few years of great stories but after that it would have been a dead end. There had to have been some sort of endgame at some point to fix it. Spiderman couldnt possibly operate forever with a public identity, he wouldve essentially been what DD is now.

I never understood this mentality. Yeah, it went bad for DD but Captain America's been fine since unmasking. The Fantastic Four are fine since unmasking. Most of the modern day avengers are fine unmasked. In fact, most everyone who's unmasked save Daredevil have been fine with only a few bumps here and there.

I agree with those who said it could have been a great direction for the character but oh well.

Quality and characterization aside, the sales are doing pretty well. Spider-Man is a viable commercial franchise again--mission accomplished.

As others have said, I don't think it's a good franchise at all. It's pretty much a solo book and nothing else floats. And not only that, but even the sales have nothing to do with OMD. Put the talent on the married Spidey and tell mostly the exact same strories with the schedual and price (aka... change nothing about BND save the MJ part and what little bits that need changed to fit her in still as a wife) and the sales still would have worked.

I'll hazard to even say that doing this would have even increased sales because you wouldn't have had all the anti-OMD fans leave. And there's still question on whether or not sales really have improved when you factor in 3 Spider-Man titles a month with 3 Amazing Spider-Man titles a month and all that jazz. I don't really get into the sales perspective of things but I've heard convincing arguments from both sides of that coin. I do think it speaks volumes though that ONLY Amazing Spider-Man sells when other titles all crash and burn within a year. That's a lot different back before OMD when the other Spider-Man titles also sold decently. I think that tells us pretty definately that Spider-Man is a popular character, yes, but not a franchise character.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Before BND, comic sales in general were rather healthy. Sales started to slip all around for both Marvel AND dc around that time, due mostly to the economy.

Mind you; I'm in complete agreement with you in regards to Spidey's current state. Just sayin'.

I think that even with a good economy, not many people are going to want to buy Amazing Spider-Man three times a month at a $2.99/$3.99 price point, along with other Spider-Man books that were guaranteed to be released at a $3.99 price point. Add along with the fact that Marvel did a rather poor job at making those books sound any bit interesting.

 

[kguillou]

Originally posted by JewishHobbit;19441104]
I never understood this mentality. Yeah, it went bad for DD but Captain America's been fine since unmasking. The Fantastic Four are fine since unmasking. Most of the modern day avengers are fine unmasked. In fact, most everyone who's unmasked save Daredevil have been fine with only a few bumps here and there.

I agree with those who said it could have been a great direction for the character but oh well.

Well the thing with Spidey is that he has an entire supporting cast of characters to worry about if his identity is ever revealed. The FF4 are public but they can all take care of themselves. Cap doesnt really have anybody else besides like Sharon Carter and she's a Shield agent who can take care of herself. Tony stark doesnt really have to worry about Pepper or Rhodey because, again, they can all take care of themselves if ever in danger.

Spiderman and DD have a supporting cast of characters who would be in serious danger if their identities were public. When DD went public, Foggy nearly died, his wife put in a mental hospital, Dakota North is always having bad s*** happen to her. The same goes for Spidey, his identity is serious weakness that can be exploited.

I mean its comics, so there'll always be a certain level of suspension of disbelief but i think guys like DD and Spidey NEED their i.d. secret in order to protect the people in their lives whereas the more public heroes like the Avengers and the FF4 dont really have people in their supporting cast that they have to worry about like Peter does for Aunt May or Matt does for Foggy.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Yeah, I can see your point there.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Well the thing with Spidey is that he has an entire supporting cast of characters to worry about if his identity is ever revealed. The FF4 are public but they can all take care of themselves. Cap doesnt really have anybody else besides like Sharon Carter and she's a Shield agent who can take care of herself. Tony stark doesnt really have to worry about Pepper or Rhodey because, again, they can all take care of themselves if ever in danger.

Spiderman and DD have a supporting cast of characters who would be in serious danger if their identities were public. When DD went public, Foggy nearly died, his wife put in a mental hospital, Dakota North is always having bad s*** happen to her. The same goes for Spidey, his identity is serious weakness that can be exploited.

I mean its comics, so there'll always be a certain level of suspension of disbelief but i think guys like DD and Spidey NEED their i.d. secret in order to protect the people in their lives whereas the more public heroes like the Avengers and the FF4 dont really have people in their supporting cast that they have to worry about like Peter does for Aunt May or Matt does for Foggy.

But at the time when Peter revealed his identity, his supporting cast pretty much just consisted of Aunt May and Mary Jane and they lived in Avengers Tower. They were safe.

Not only that but like I said, I think most villains are like the Rogues. The Rogues don't kill the family members of superheroes due to fear of retaliation from the Justice League. Spider-Man is an Avenger now, if someone went after Mary Jane or Aunt May, that person would have faced the full force of Iron Man, Captain America, Ms. Marvel, Luke Cage, Wolverine, the Sentry, Spider-Woman, and the Fantastic Four in retaliation. And most villains have the common sense not to do something like that.

Daredevil on the other hand almost refuses to build up alliances to the extent that Spider-Man has. He doesn't have the Avengers or Fantastic Four to back him up constantly because he's always wanted to go it alone. Therefore, the villains could afford to go after him.

 

[JewishHobbit]

That man's got a good point too.

 

[Dread]

To be fair, David Gabriel, not Joe Quesada, sets the prices of Marvel comics. I suppose if Quesada and every senior, junior, and vice president editor rallied as a unified voice against $3.99 comics, Gabriel likely would lower them, or lower them at a faster rate. Solicitations for Feb. and March 2011 DO show more $2.99 comics from Marvel and some modest trims to the line (albeit from canceled or merged titles and some CHAOS WAR mini's ending), $3.99 comics still are a slight majority of Marvel's output at least into April.

It does seem to me that from what people are saying, for whatever Joe Quesada has done, his two most infamous choices were:

- M-Day with the X-Men
- ONE MORE DAY/ ONE MOMENT IN TIME which totally erased the Spider-Marriage

Things such as Spidey's brief unmasking and so on are also points of contention.

I'm just summarizing, and I am inclined to agree. Part of me thinks that whatever successes ASM has had since 2008 have been in spite of some of the editorial policies, at least some of them.

 

[fifthfiend]

But at the time when Peter revealed his identity, his supporting cast pretty much just consisted of Aunt May and Mary Jane and they lived in Avengers Tower. They were safe.

Oh man I wanna see someone find out Spidey's identity, and then they decide to get him by going after his beloved employer J. Jonah Jameson

And then Spidey is like

"uh"

"a'ight"

 

[Harlekin]

Good move, although I too was a little surprised it wasn't Brevoort that got the job. Still, I haven't been very impressed with that man's work lately, so I don't necessarily mind. As Dread already noted, that Alonso was getting groomed is pretty obvious now in hindsight, with the CBR-column.

As to Joey Q? Man brought Marvel back from the brink, I've got no real issue with him. Sure, I don't agree with what happened to Spider-Man but I didn't read those titles before OMD and I don't read them after. No loss to me.

As to OMD, I find it a little funny that people are immediately clamouring for it to be undone and people responding that it won't be as long as Joe Q is still in The House of Ideas as if he would pressure Alonso on this front. Has anyone thought of the possibility that maybe Alonso won't want to change things? That he might be perfectly happy with the current status quo? OMD-haters always seem to think that anyone but Joey Q will immediately support them.

 

[runawayboulder]

Has anyone thought of the possibility that maybe Alonso won't want to change things? That he might be perfectly happy with the current status quo? OMD-haters always seem to think that anyone but Joey Q will immediately support them.

I totally agree and that's why I have no intentions of getting my hopes up in that regard. For all we know, he could have been part of the anti marriage contingent. Or maybe his philosophy is to go forwards not backwards at this point, "what's done is done" type of thing. As long as he doesn't feel an urge to leave his own personal stamp on SM like Joe Q seemed inclined to do during his tenure, we'll all be winners.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Speaking for myself, it isn't that I think he'll want to change OMD as much as now that Quesada's out, the possibility of it eventually happening (or an acceptable compromise) suddenly becomes more real... whether it's done by Alonso or the next guy.

But like I said, I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Themanofbat]

Not only that but like I said, I think most villains are like the Rogues. The Rogues don't kill the family members of superheroes due to fear of retaliation from the Justice League. Spider-Man is an Avenger now, if someone went after Mary Jane or Aunt May, that person would have faced the full force of Iron Man, Captain America, Ms. Marvel, Luke Cage, Wolverine, the Sentry, Spider-Woman, and the Fantastic Four in retaliation. And most villains have the common sense not to do something like that.

They are NOTHING like the Rogues. Nope. Not even close.

If there was fear of retaliation, why did the Kingpin hire a hitman to go after Parker's family? In ASM #536, Spider-Man publically announces that he's switched sides... to Captain America's side, Luke Cage's side, Wolverine's side, Ben Grimm's side, DareDevil's side, the Punisher's side (some of the names you brought up in your little point up there)...

The "fear of retaliation" doesn't work as well in the MU as it does in the CDU...

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I could see the Kingpin being emboldened by the fact that he's already in jail and he knows from personal experience that most of those dudes aren't gonna kill him. Going after Spider-Man's family might not elicit a lethal response from the Punisher--certainly not one that Captain friggin' America would condone, at any rate. And even if it did, that means the Punisher's gotta break into a prison, where the Kingpin effectively has an army of cannon fodder to throw at him; he could easily convince any of those other prisoners that they could totally be known as the guy who took the Punisher down. I'd call it more a calculated risk from the Kingpin, who at the time didn't seem to have too much to lose.

As to OMD, I find it a little funny that people are immediately clamouring for it to be undone and people responding that it won't be as long as Joe Q is still in The House of Ideas as if he would pressure Alonso on this front. Has anyone thought of the possibility that maybe Alonso won't want to change things? That he might be perfectly happy with the current status quo? OMD-haters always seem to think that anyone but Joey Q will immediately support them.

The intent behind claiming OMD will never be undone so long as Joe Q is the boss isn't to imply that literally everyone besides JMS hates OMD and wants to undo it. Of course other editors like the status quo. Wacker seems to be overjoyed with it, judging by the fun he has s***ting all over fans who complain about it.

Rather, the implication is that so long as Joe Q is the boss, he'll stop anyone who does want to change it. Of course, there may not actually be anyone within Marvel who wants to change it. But so long as Joe Q is calling the shots, it wouldn't matter even if there were; the buck stops with him and we know his thoughts on the matter.

 

[Themanofbat]

But it's not just JQ that wanted this... his bosses wanted a single Spider-Man... within a few years of Shooter's "let's make them get married" gimmick, Marvel Comics Inc. tried many times to make him "un-married"... even DeFalco's original plan was to make them go to the altar (with ASM #300 or 350) only to have MJ get cold feet and leave Peter standing there alone... because in the end, our favourite loveable loser, Peter Parker, simply cannot get the girl... EVER... unless he stops being Spider-Man.

We all know the "with great power..." tag line, but this book has always been about how the Spectre of Spider-Man comes between Peter Parker and those he loves...his duties AS Spider-Man will always interfere with Peter Parker's inner desire to live a normal life... and despite this, he always tries and never gives up... hence the inspiration that Spider-Man gives to all his readers throughout the world.

When I was a younger nerdy kid, I could always feel better by reading about a Peter Parker who did the right thing (as Spider-Man) in spite of the fact that his being Spider-Man kicked Peter Parker's life right in the nuts... it gave me courage to want to go out and face my own adversities...

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, but the higher-ups at Marvel ultimately don't really care so long as the comics sell. They played ball with the married Spider-Man because whenever they tried to undo it, sales dropped. It took Joe Q's personal stake in wanting to reclaim his childhood Spider-Man--the single guy with girl troubles on top of everything else--to commit to that change and figure out a way to limit the damage so that, even though sales dipped a bit, they were still acceptable enough to not reverse the change. If someone else wanted to undo it and they did it in such a way that sales stayed acceptable, I doubt any shareholders or corporate suits are gonna come in and go, "No, Spider-Man HAS to stay single!"

 

[chamber-music]

I could see the Kingpin being emboldened by the fact that he's already in jail and he knows from personal experience that most of those dudes aren't gonna kill him. Going after Spider-Man's family might not elicit a lethal response from the Punisher--certainly not one that Captain friggin' America would condone, at any rate. And even if it did, that means the Punisher's gotta break into a prison, where the Kingpin effectively has an army of cannon fodder to throw at him; he could easily convince any of those other prisoners that they could totally be known as the guy who took the Punisher down. I'd call it more a calculated risk from the Kingpin, who at the time didn't seem to have too much to lose.

The Punisher has been to prison atleast three times in the comics that I can think of and everytime he usually kills anyone who comes for him and escapes. I think there was even a Punisher Max story in which he broke into prison to kill a mob boss.

Most villains are seriously scared of the punisher because his one of the few 'good guys' who will outright murder you if you mess with him.

 

[runawayboulder]

If you look at the sales history of ASM it was ALWAYS a top 3 book up until the Clone Saga. Then Marvel got so preoccupied about Peter being married and aging that they shot themselves in the foot with this crap. Now ASM just barely cracks the top 20 some months.

 

[iloveclones]

Yeah, but the higher-ups at Marvel ultimately don't really care so long as the comics sell. They played ball with the married Spider-Man because whenever they tried to undo it, sales dropped. It took Joe Q's personal stake in wanting to reclaim his childhood Spider-Man--the single guy with girl troubles on top of everything else--to commit to that change and figure out a way to limit the damage so that, even though sales dipped a bit, they were still acceptable enough to not reverse the change. If someone else wanted to undo it and they did it in such a way that sales stayed acceptable, I doubt any shareholders or corporate suits are gonna come in and go, "No, Spider-Man HAS to stay single!"

I'm not so sure. I don't think it would play out like that, but I doubt Disney shareholders care much how things play out in the comics except how they affect sales of other things (movies, stickers, toothpaste, toilet paper, etc.) I'm sure there are shareholders that care about what's happening with the characters (grandma who buys her grandson some shares as a "cool" present), but really, when we're talking about shareholders, we're talking Vanguard, TIAA-CREF and these big corporate entities who only care about bottom line. So the calculation is a little more complex. I'd imagine a property like Spidey is followed by anybody with a financial interest (i.e. they might not care if you make Iron Fist gay, but any change with our money-shaker is going to be talked about.) So if a EiC came along that wanted to "remarry" them, I'd imagine that would start making sounds among the major shareholders. And they would weigh in: "How will this affect the movies?", "Is this better/worse in terms of merchandising", that kind of thing.

My main contention has always been that both in storytelling (yes, I hated OMD too) and merchandising, a young, single Spider-Man works better. Do stockholders think that? I don't have the data that would even begin to answer that (and frankly, neither does anyone on this board .... although DBM used to be pretty knowledgeable in this arena)


I'll tell you another thing I suspect: I wouldn't be bowled over if someone told me that JQ pushed this through to make Marvel more attractive to Disney. Just a hunch, but if you look at this move in 2030, you would say, "Marvel significantly and fundamentally changes it's flagship character, causing what they know(from past results) will be a mass outcry from fans, a year or two before they're bought by Disney?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't really see how the comics affect those other merchandising ventures, though. Other media besides the comics are what merchandise usually comes from. Look at most of the toys or lunchboxes or whatever from the past ten years and what are you likely to see? The movie Spider-Man or Spectacular Spider-Man's Spider-Man. Look at the stuff from the decade before that and it's the '90s animated version. What goes on in the comics doesn't really help or hinder what goes on in other media because comic readers comprise such a miniscule part of the fanbase. In all three of those other media ventures I mentioned, Spider-Man was portrayed as younger and single, even though he was married and pushing 30 in the comics at the time. Right now we've got Ultimate Spider-Man in development which, once again, will feature a young, single Peter Parker. I don't claim to know a lot about the inner workings of Marvel as a business, but it certainly seems to me that a married Peter in the comics doesn't really make a whole lot of difference to the image of Spider-Man in other media and merchandising.

 

[iloveclones]

I would agree. I think, on the whole, Disney as an entity is not going to really care what goes on there. And frankly, it would have to be something a lot more dramatic and probably unwholesome to arouse their interest. I suppose if Someone decided to have Spidey have a drug habit, that might make them notice. Honestly, though, I would imagine if an EiC announced in a meeting that he wanted Pete to marry someone, say Carlie (outside of making JustABill's head explode), it would be met with groans of "Didn't we go through all of this?" The only way I realistically see that being undone is if a fanboy (like Slott once was) rises to the lever of writer/editor and really championed it.