Ken Ham vs Bill Nye (Is creation a viable model of origins?)

[The End]

If you want to know the honest truth, while its also true that I want to encourage people to think about it, I'm also very frustrated.

I'm frustrated because I think people are better than this. I think that people are willingly choosing to believe absurd things without thinking about it and its a frustration because of the age we live in; we're better than this now, we're not in the dark the way that people were in the dark back then. It frustrates me to no end.

For that reason, I will bow out of the thread for a while, maybe to not return until the Bill Nye/Ken Ham debate has aired.

 

[Teelie]

There is encouraging active engagement then there's being dismissive and hostile in your assertions. Something both sides are guilty of.

And why I no longer actively participate in these kinds of things. Neither side can stand down and accept maybe the other is right or find a common ground (although I do understand the staunch evolution verse staunch creationists will never compromise, those in the middle might find they can say what they think without immediately being shredded for not strongly siding).

There is nothing to gain from saying the other side is wrong and then throwing facts, opinions, literature, unfounded or dubious claims, and whatever else you can dig up to support your side and flinging it in their face like it's going to do anything but anger them.

 

[NickNitro]

If you want to know the honest truth, while its also true that I want to encourage people to think about it, I'm also very frustrated.

I'm frustrated because I think people are better than this. I think that people are willingly choosing to believe absurd things without thinking about it and its a frustration because of the age we live in; we're better than this now, we're not in the dark the way that people were in the dark back then. It frustrates me to no end.

For that reason, I will bow out of the thread for a while, maybe to not return until the Bill Nye/Ken Ham debate has aired.

Have you ever thought that some people of faith (who aren't all Christian so I dont know why Christians are constantly getting bombarded, why don't you quote the Quran sometime and tear it up) but just enjoy believing. It makes them happy at the end of the day, they treat people just a little nicer because they feel if they do they'll find a way to their view of Heaven? It gives them a way to escape everyday hardships and find internal strength to move forward.

Don't you think it's some peoples way of coping with mortality? A way to coupe with losing loved ones. A feeling in their soul that they'll see them again in another life.

You along with other people constantly bombard people of faith with articles from scientists, theorists, historians. But very few of you ever just stop and think about what it does for the individual. You're soo quick to judge us for believing in something you don't, and condemn us for pushing our beliefs on you, but look at how you're the one attacking us now. Whether you attended to or not.

 

[Feenix]

There's nothing wrong with believing, just keep it out of science classrooms. As long as creationists all over the world (who are Muslims too, by the way) continue to attack evolution and try to encourage teachers to teach a "controversy" that simply does not exist, then you can expect people to fire back with vigor and hostility.

There is no logical reason why creationism should ever be considered as more than a far-fetched thought. It is simply wrong. I'm not saying that this means a god doesn't exist, it means that the idea of creationism (and the subsequent denial of evolution) is incorrect. It's not science. It's not anything but a bad idea put forth by a priest.

 

[Spider-Who?]

There's nothing wrong with believing, just keep it out of science classrooms. As long as creationists all over the world (who are Muslims too, by the way) continue to attack evolution and try to encourage teachers to teach a "controversy" that simply does not exist, then you can expect people to fire back with vigor and hostility.

There is no logical reason why creationism should ever be considered as more than a far-fetched thought. It is simply wrong. I'm not saying that this means a god doesn't exist, it means that the idea of creationism (and the subsequent denial of evolution) is incorrect. It's not science. It's not anything but a bad idea put forth by a priest.

I think this is the problem right here. I am no creationist, but this post illustrates what I think is the chief reason why creationists put up a fight.

It's one thing to say "I don't agree with you" or "that's your belief, but science offers a better/different explanation". It's another thing entirely to insult that person's beliefs/insult them directly. You say that creationists attack evolution, but really, whose attacking who? I've met FAR MORE evolutionists who insult, attack and try to silence creationists (of varying degrees) than I've met creationists who do the same. This thread is a perfect example of this. It's frustratingly ironic that these same evolutionists attack and insult, but then turn around and complain about creationists wanting their voice to be heard.

When you have someone tell you that your belief (religious or not) is wrong, stupid, a bad idea, etc, you ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE IT LIGHTLY. Period. I'm convinced that if evolutionists were...lets say a little more subtle in their critiques, you'd see far less cries for the teaching of creationism in school (which, really, is greatly exaggerated).

 

[NickNitro]

lol you tried Spider_Who...but I've learned to ignore people like this.

People like CosmicPinchy and The_End just see there way, and belittle everyone else's ideas if they don't agree.

Thanks (especially because you don't see our views) for backing up the ideology of how to properly discuss an argument rather than become an Ogre with blind hatred and disdain for the opposing side.

It's nice to know there's people like you out there to debate with.

 

[Hal_Jordan]

Have you ever thought that some people of faith (who aren't all Christian so I dont know why Christians are constantly getting bombarded, why don't you quote the Quran sometime and tear it up) but just enjoy believing. It makes them happy at the end of the day, they treat people just a little nicer because they feel if they do they'll find a way to their view of Heaven? It gives them a way to escape everyday hardships and find internal strength to move forward.

People who believe this way don't get into debates like this, because they believe what they believe and they don't care what anyone says.

Don't you think it's some peoples way of coping with mortality? A way to coupe with losing loved ones. A feeling in their soul that they'll see them again in another life.

That's great, but we wouldn't even be having this debate if people kept their faith personal.

You along with other people constantly bombard people of faith with articles from scientists, theorists, historians. But very few of you ever just stop and think about what it does for the individual. You're soo quick to judge us for believing in something you don't, and condemn us for pushing our beliefs on you, but look at how you're the one attacking us now. Whether you attended to or not.

If you consider providing facts and evidence to a side of a debate or argument an attack, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[NickNitro]

And round and round we go, we we'll stop no body knows

 

[Doctor Evo]

I'm still waiting to hear a cogent argument against evolution. *Twiddles thumbs*

 

[Feenix]

lol you tried Spider_Who...but I've learned to ignore people like this.

People like CosmicPinchy and The_End just see there way, and belittle everyone else's ideas if they don't agree.

Thanks (especially because you don't see our views) for backing up the ideology of how to properly discuss an argument rather than become an Ogre with blind hatred and disdain for the opposing side.

It's nice to know there's people like you out there to debate with.

Oh, we're ogres now? It's amazing that you hold yourself up as the pinnacle of "good" debate.

I said I don't care if people believe, as long as they don't bring it to the science classrooms. In no way shape or form is creationism science and I don't know how many times I have to say it, creationism is not exclusive to Christianity. Even Christians don't like creationism!

Before people can debate, they might want to try to learn how to comprehend what they read. Like you, sir. Your problem is if someone disagrees with you, they always disagree with you. You say something, someone replies with their argument. To you, that means they're being rude and not listening to the other side it's childish. You expect someone to relent, eventually, to your side. Once you figure out that they won't ever agree with you, suddenly it's all, "this person doesn't like other's opinions" or "this person doesn't know how to debate" or "this person doesn't respect me." You don't understand what debating means.

 

[Hal_Jordan]

It may not, but his attitude does make himself as a SHH poster undesirable. I'd rather listen to someone on the other side of the argument who respects myself as well as the rest of the community.

This ridiculous comment, as well as others are backhanded at best, and show little to no class as an individual.

Some people think it's ridiculous to claim that Jesus was God. And when presented with evidence to the contrary they respond with, "I don't care, you're wrong, Jesus is God because that's what I believe."

"Why do you believe that?"

"It's in a really old book."

I'd really like a place to debate where I don't have to run into crap like that.

You can't have any kind of debate when your side of it is, "I believe it to be true, so no points you bring up, or facts you present are going to change my mind because this is what I believe to be true."

 

[Feenix]

I think this is the problem right here. I am no creationist, but this post illustrates what I think is the chief reason why creationists put up a fight.

It's one thing to say "I don't agree with you" or "that's your belief, but science offers a better/different explanation". It's another thing entirely to insult that person's beliefs/insult them directly. You say that creationists attack evolution, but really, whose attacking who? I've met FAR MORE evolutionists who insult, attack and try to silence creationists (of varying degrees) than I've met creationists who do the same. This thread is a perfect example of this. It's frustratingly ironic that these same evolutionists attack and insult, but then turn around and complain about creationists wanting their voice to be heard.

When you have someone tell you that your belief (religious or not) is wrong, stupid, a bad idea, etc, you ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE IT LIGHTLY. Period. I'm convinced that if evolutionists were...lets say a little more subtle in their critiques, you'd see far less cries for the teaching of creationism in school (which, really, is greatly exaggerated).

Not all Christians are creationists. So your idea that I'm calling someone's belief stupid is not true. It's a part of their belief and it's not even a part of everyone's belief.

As for the bolded part, it's not exaggerated. Look at the stats for the United States when it comes to teachers who teach creationism, teachers who teach evolution, and teachers who don't teach evolution because they're afraid of "controversy." Those stats are astounding. Here, try this on for size:

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/10/9/under-the-bannerofacademicfreedom.html


Evolutionists are fighting back because creationists started this whole thing up in the first place. You say that if evolutionists were more subtle in their critiques, you would see far less cries of the teaching of creationism. You have it backwards. It's because there are cries for the teaching of creationism that evolutionists are critiquing it. The creationist cries came first, not the other way around.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

So let me get this straight...Nye is going to debate this Ham guy....at a Creationist museum....in a debate setting regulated by Creationists?

If this is true, seems kind of biased to me.

 

[Teelie]

He's a brave man going into the proverbial lion's den with the lion.

 

[NickNitro]

Yeah that is incredibly brave of him. Let's hope we can finally have an unbiased debate on the matter without having people's emotions getting involved.

 

[Donnie Darko]

Outside of the argument on whether or not creationism should be taught in science classes (which it shouldn't, as it is not a science, and I say that as a Christian), why do people feel the need to DEBATE on religious beliefs, anyway?

I think there is a definite difference between "this is how I feel" and "this is how YOU SHOULD feel". Why go out of your way to try to disprove something that has absolutely zero effect on you at all? As I already stated, I am a Christian, and I fully expect someone to respond to this with "but WHY do you believe that? What PROOF do you have?" Does it matter why I believe that way? I should be able to believe that Santa Claus married the Easter Bunny and gave birth to Bigfoot if I want to, and if you want to, you should be able to believe that none of those things have ever existed.

I use the term "you" in a general sense. I am not aiming it at anyone in particular.

I know nothing of this Ken Ham guy, but I do think Bill Nye will be respectful of everyone involved, even if he does not share their beliefs. From what little I have seen of him recently, he seems to be able to express his opinions (and facts) without being hateful or even condescending to those who would oppose him.

 

[Hal_Jordan]

Outside of the argument on whether or not creationism should be taught in science classes (which it shouldn't, as it is not a science, and I say that as a Christian), why do people feel the need to DEBATE on religious beliefs, anyway?

I think there is a definite difference between "this is how I feel" and "this is how YOU SHOULD feel". Why go out of your way to try to disprove something that has absolutely zero effect on you at all? As I already stated, I am a Christian, and I fully expect someone to respond to this with "but WHY do you believe that? What PROOF do you have?" Does it matter why I believe that way? I should be able to believe that Santa Claus married the Easter Bunny and gave birth to Bigfoot if I want to, and if you want to, you should be able to believe that none of those things have ever existed.

I use the term "you" in a general sense. I am not aiming it at anyone in particular.

I know nothing of this Ken Ham guy, but I do think Bill Nye will be respectful of everyone involved, even if he does not share their beliefs. From what little I have seen of him recently, he seems to be able to express his opinions (and facts) without being hateful or even condescending to those who would oppose him.

Scientists aren't doing what they do to piss off religious people. They are trying to unravel the mysteries of the universe and discover how things work.

You can believe that Santa Claus married the Easter Bunny and gave birth to Bigfoot all you want, but you can't get into a debate with people about it, and don't get mad if someone finds actual evidence to the contrary.

The idea that scientists should stop working because it might upset religious people is beyond absurd and quite destructive to the advancement of the human species.

It reminds me of this...

 

[Donnie Darko]

When did I ever try to get into a debate? My post actually said that there's no point in even debating it.

Also, I should have clarified this, but I didn't mean scientists shouldn't be out to answer the questions of the universe. I just meant it's pointless for people to sit in website forums and yell at each other when neither side is going to budge. I should have worded it better than "Why go out of your way to try to disprove something..." because I did not mean that to apply to people doing scientific research, writing articles, etc in the pursuit of fact. I meant it in regards to people who show up any time they see a Christian and start an argument over whether or not someone can prove that God exists.

And yes, the same could apply to people like the Westboro Baptist Church, who go around looking to attack people with their ideology.

I also pointed out that creationism doesn't belong in a science class because it's not a science. That should imply that I am not against science in and of itself. I feel like you have been sitting on that image you posted all day just waiting for some dummy to put in his place, yet you used it on the guy NOT arguing against you.

 

[NickNitro]

I'm just curious Hal. Do you feel cognitively superior to people who live a life of spirituality, and believe deities? Are you a man of science personally? I am just curious. Not trying to fight.

 

[Teelie]

That gif is funny because it's true, although I do wonder if the rant in the middle is sarcastic or unintentional.

 

[Hal_Jordan]

When did I ever try to get into a debate? My post actually said that there's no point in even debating it.

Also, I should have clarified this, but I didn't mean scientists shouldn't be out to answer the questions of the universe. I just meant it's pointless for people to sit in website forums and yell at each other when neither side is going to budge. I should have worded it better than "Why go out of your way to try to disprove something..." because I did not mean that to apply to people doing scientific research, writing articles, etc in the pursuit of fact. I meant it in regards to people who show up any time they see a Christian and start an argument over whether or not someone can prove that God exists.

And yes, the same could apply to people like the Westboro Baptist Church, who go around looking to attack people with their ideology.

I also pointed out that creationism doesn't belong in a science class because it's not a science. That should imply that I am not against science in and of itself. I feel like you have been sitting on that image you posted all day just waiting for some dummy to put in his place, yet you used it on the guy NOT arguing against you.

It was definitely your line of "Why go out of your way to try to disprove something that has absolutely zero effect on you at all?" that I took issue with, because as I said, that's not really even close to what scientists are actually doing.

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

So let me get this straight...Nye is going to debate this Ham guy....at a Creationist museum....in a debate setting regulated by Creationists?

If this is true, seems kind of biased to me.

Dawkins found himself in a similar situation debating the bishop of Australia. It was a farce.

 

[Donnie Darko]

It was definitely your line of "Why go out of your way to try to disprove something that has absolutely zero effect on you at all?" that I took issue with, because as I said, that's not really even close to what scientists are actually doing.

Thank you for clarifying.

edit: tried to post a nice thumbs up gif from The Monster Squad, but it didn't work.

 

[Hal_Jordan]

I'm just curious Hal. Do you feel cognitively superior to people who live a life of spirituality, and believe deities?

Not in every instance. Like everything, it's on a case by case basis.

I don't think any religion has gotten it right, but I believe in the possibility that there is some sort of God type entity.

But saying evolution is a pack of lies and making contrary statements that can be proven false, is a problem.

Are you a man of science personally? I am just curious. Not trying to fight.

Are you asking me if my job is science related? If so, it is not, but I am very interested in the subject and follow current discoveries, research, breakthroughs, and other news.

 

[NickNitro]

Not in every instance. Like everything, it's on a case by case basis.

I don't think any religion has gotten it right, but I believe in the possibility that there is some sort of God type entity.

But saying evolution is a pack of lies and making contrary statements that can be proven false, is a problem.


Are you asking me if my job is science related? If so, it is not, but I am very interested in the subject and follow current discoveries, research, breakthroughs, and other news.

I never once said evolution is a pack of lies. I also feel its a travesty that both ideas can't co exist. Why do you have to have one and not the other? I've never fully understood it. Why can't I believe that God created Earth and life, and that primitive life evolved into man.

I hate threads like this because I get into arguments with people I'd probably get along with in any other environment.