Ken Ham vs Bill Nye (Is creation a viable model of origins?)

[Slushy]

While I believe there are perfectly natural explanations for all those things, I wont argue the point. You believe those are miracles, and I wont try to take that from you. We all need to believe in something. Thank you for writing this up.

Thanks for reading.

 

[jmc]

why not? they believe he just randomly decided to one day create the cosmos and life, why couldn't he create the ability to adapt? I mean... Christians never seem to think of what came before the universe... where god is from, and what came before the universe was created.

was he sitting in a big white room staring into an abyss? does he have family? what created god?

it's an infinite loop of questions no one has the answers too.. and we never will.. we will never know what came before our universe was created... be it big bang or divine intervention.

Not with that attitude and that's kind of the point Nye was trying to get across, just because we don't know now doesn't mean we won't know in the future.

 

[Marvolo]

Why would an all powerful being create evolution?

Evolution functions as a part of the laws of nature does it not? Maybe the being likes symmetry and order in the universe? Yeah it might could have snapped its fingers but where is the fun in that? Or maybe it didnt want to hamper our natural development. If it did it with magic, at some point we would have realized it and stopped searching for answers and turned to some all powerful being for a quick fix. The laws of nature and evolution keep us forever curious and advancing. Or some such thing like that. Idk its just a philisophical thing to ponder.

Then there is the possibility the being cant alter physical laws and is bound by them. Who knows really? Its just neat to think about.

 

[KevanG]

Why would an all powerful being create evolution?

Why not? It's like playing Spore. You start everything, follow your favorites, help them grow and watch them go on. It make sense from the co-existing POV.

 

[Hotwire]

Why would an all powerful being create evolution?

Why would and all-powerful being create anything? The motive is a moot point. I mean, to go the other route, that everything was created as is would mean that all of the scientific evidence we keep finding was also created. And, assuming God is all-powerful/all-knowing, He put it there knowing we would find it. Following that, God created His own undermining.

 

[jmc]

Evolution functions as a part of the laws of nature does it not? Maybe the being likes symmetry and order in the universe? Yeah it could have snapped its fingers but wheres the fun in that. or maybe it didnt want to hanper our natural development. If it did it with maguc at some point we would have realized it and stopped searching for answers and turned to some all powerful being for a wuick fix. The laws of nature and evolution keep us forever curious and advancing. Or some such thing like that. Idk its just a philisophical thing to ponder.

And that's all it is is philosophy.

 

[jmc]

Why not? It's like playing Spore. You start everything, follow your favorites, help them grow and watch them go on. It make sense from the co-existing POV.

So the great all powerful being is playing a PC game.

 

[jmc]

Why would and all-powerful being create anything? The motive is a moot point. I mean, to go the other route, that everything was created as is would mean that all of the scientific evidence we keep finding was also created. And, assuming God is all-powerful/all-knowing, He put it there knowing we would find it. Following that, God created His own undermining.

Isn't is just as likely, if not more so, that everything we know, everything that we are is nothing more than a natural phenomenon? That a god is nothing more than an old fashion explanation that has been constantly debunked over the last 500 years.

 

[Slushy]

An admission of having a closed mind.

I'm wrong and you're right. Happy now?

 

[Marvolo]

why not? they believe he just randomly decided to one day create the cosmos and life, why couldn't he create the ability to adapt? I mean... Christians never seem to think of what came before the universe... where god is from, and what came before the universe was created.

was he sitting in a big white room staring into an abyss? does he have family? what created god?

it's an infinite loop of questions no one has the answers too.. and we never will.. we will never know what came before our universe was created... be it big bang or divine intervention.

Ill answer like countless protestant preachers have answered me.

1. God is and always has been. Like he himself said, "I am." In the Hebrew text it means always existing. To say or think otherwise is essentially blasphemous.

2. No God does not have a family. He is the only god. He has beings under him, but none are equal or superior. Jesus (his son) and the holy ghost are a part of him and him.

3. God was not created. He just is.

4. God created the universe, because it pleased him.

Etc etc etc. Protestants (mainly sola scriptura people) dont venture beyond the bible and what it says about God. They dont speculate like other christians and like the jews do. Sola Scriptura is exactly what it says. The absolute word of god and final authority. If it isnt in there it doesnt really matter. Everything god wants you to know is in there.

*Its scary how quick that came back to me. Its like riding a bike after all those years of having it drilled in.

 

[Hotwire]

So the great all powerful being is playing a PC game.

 

[KevanG]

Why not? There's been various theories made that we all live inside a type of Matrix simulation. Besides, if you could be all powerful and immortal, wouldn't you watch people like reality tv?

 

[Marvolo]

And that's all it is is philosophy.

Yeah, and thats why I wont push it on anyone. Im a philosopher at heart. I love to set and wonder about the universe, and I love to talk to others about it. But there is a time and place for it. That must be remembered.

 

[DarkSovereignty]

I'm wrong and you're right. Happy now?

Well...at least you know

 

[jmc]

Here's the thing that kind of annoys me. Religion keeps moving the goal posts in favour of god still having relevance. In the last 500 years what was once explained by god has been withered away by science, that's only going to continue with more advances in understanding and technology. My question is at what point is enough enough for religion? Say for instance we find a satisfactory explanation for the origin of the universe, say we figure out what happened before the big bang. Is that going to being enough for god to be taken out of the equation? Or are the religious types once again going to move the goal posts further back? When do the religious folks become satisfied?

 

[Hotwire]

Isn't is just as likely, if not more so, that everything we know, everything that we are is nothing more than a natural phenomenon? That a god is nothing more than an old fashion explanation that has been constantly debunked over the last 500 years.

When I was in high school, my civics teacher defined religion as a means to answer the unknown. Of course, over the years, many religious ideas have been debunked. I'm certain more will over time. However, some of us aren't satisfied that everything that is happened solely by chance. That doesn't mean that we all believe in some bearded white guy in the clouds who watches everything we do, just that there's something out there beyond what science will ever explain. Personally, I believe there is a God. I just don't believe He gives 2 s**ts about what goes on in our world. (I'd be happy to elaborate on this if anyone would like.) I'm perfectly fine with the idea that a God of some sort got the ball rolling.

 

[Marvolo]

Why not? There's been various theories made that we all live inside a type of Matrix simulation. Besides, if you could be all powerful and immortal, wouldn't you watch people like reality tv?

I love reading about all those theories. I definitely believe we havent even scratched the surface of the universe and what it is. Im open to any interpretation of the universe and what it may be and what it may be doing. There is no harm in speculating as long as that speculation doesnt become doctrine and tool to use against people.

 

[jmc]

When I was in high school, my civics teacher defined religion as a means to answer the unknown. Of course, over the years, many religious ideas have been debunked. I'm certain more will over time. However, some of us aren't satisfied that everything that is happened solely by chance. That doesn't mean that we all believe in some bearded white guy in the clouds who watches everything we do, just that there's something out there beyond what science will ever explain. Personally, I believe there is a God. I just don't believe He gives 2 s**ts about what goes on in our world. (I'd be happy to elaborate on this if anyone would like.) I'm perfectly fine with the idea that a God of some sort got the ball rolling.

So what's the point in believing then if you think this being could care less about you? Why not just take the evidence for what it currently is?

 

[Marvolo]

Here's the thing that kind of annoys me. Religion keeps moving the goal posts in favour of god still having relevance. In the last 500 years what was once explained by god has been withered away by science, that's only going to continue with more advances in understanding and technology. My question is at what point is enough enough for religion? Say for instance we find a satisfactory explanation for the origin of the universe, say we figure out what happened before the big bang. Is that going to being enough for god to be taken out of the equation? Or are the religious types one again going to move the goal posts further back? When do the religious folks become satisfied?

Never. Lol to put it bluntly. Lets say we discover what existed pre-bang. Lets say it was two universes that collided well then those two universes and others float in something. Who created the something? Or lets say the universe is an endless cycle of big bangs and big crunches. Who set off the cycle? You see what Im getting at? Our species will probably never discover enough to entirely rule out a higher being for some folk.

 

[Slushy]

I want to know what religious people fear in exploring the evidence?

The Da Vinci Code. A lot of people took that book as fact. I agree the Church has too much power. I'm not too fond of organized religion myself. You can't even trust a priest anymore.

But Dan Brown's book raised a great point to more than 2 billion Christians: How would you feel if your whole life and everything you ever believed in was a lie?

When do the religious folks become satisfied?

When there's concrete proof there is life after death.

 

[jmc]

Never. Lol to put it bluntly. Lets say we discover what existed pre-bang. Lets say it was two universes that collided well then those two universes and others float in something. Who created the something? Or lets say the universe is an endless cycle of big bangs and big crunches. Who set off the cycle? You see what Im getting at? Our species will probably never discover enough to entirely rule out a higher being for some folk.

Why does anyone have to be responsible? Can't nature just be nature? For centuries people thought natural phenomena was the work of gods, each and every time science has figured out there was nothing supernatural about such events.

 

[Hotwire]

So what's the point in believing then if you think this being could care less about you? Why not just take the evidence for what it currently is?

Just do.

 

[Marvolo]

Why does anyone have to be responsible? Can't nature just be nature? For centuries people thought natural phenomena was the work of gods, each and every time science has figured out there was nothing supernatural about such events.

No one has to be responsible. I just enjoy thinking about possibilities. And believing in the possibility of a higher power(s) doesnt hurt anyone. A higher power (a natural one and not a magical one) is possible in our universe. That isnt religion. That is speculation and philosophy. Religion is dogma and doctrine. Thats the problem. If our species would get away from religions that demand all must believe or burn in hell and stop pushing personal beliefs on the masses we'd be in a lot better place. Philosophy and speculation isnt hurting us. Its when people turn that into harmful dogma and doctrine that it becomes a problem. That is what is hurting us.

 

[Hal_Jordan]

Just do.

That was almost Nike's slogan.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Not with that attitude and that's kind of the point Nye was trying to get across, just because we don't know now doesn't mean we won't know in the future.

Im aware of that. But every beginning has a beginning. Time is infinite. We won't ever know all the answers. But we can certainly try