'Lair' Hands-on preview: Too much for the Ps3 to handle.

[El Santo]

Only with the power of the Playstation3.

 

[imdaly]

Y'know, all this time, I had thought that when Sony said the PS3 will allow picture slideshows, I didn't realize they were referring to the framerate of their games....

 

[Zenien]

Factor 5 are probably one of the most competent technical developers in the industry, optimization and devtime are there for a reason.

"A demo on an incomplete game has a bad framerate"

ok, so?

 

[Avalanche]

I've never warmed to Lair, and I don't think I ever will.

 

[Mr. Credible]

that's too bad. hopefully it was just an older build of the game, and those few small glitches will be fixed.

 

[El Santo]

I suspected that the Lair demo may have been an older version of the game (possibly from TGS), but a Sony rep confirmed the game was a "refined" build and that it's still expected to ship in the spring.

That sounds to me like an almost finished build.
They either delay the game to work out the kinks or release it as a chock full o' bugs piece of crap. A spring release would be rushed, IMO.

Oh and Panzer Dragoon Orta >>>>> This game.

 

[Avalanche]

Oh and Panzer Dragoon Orta >>>>> This game.

Why, have you had a proper playtest of Lair?

Don't get me wrong, Lair really doesn't appeal to me, but at least wait until you've played both properly and can make a full comparison before you declare which is the better game.

 

[El Santo]

I haven't played it obviously, it's just that PDO looks infinitely better to me
It's a personal thing, since I love PDO with all of my heart and this is, you know, another dragon game, so...

 

[Deleted User]

Welcome to the sinking ship that is Sony's credibility.

 

[Zenien]

Refined build can mean a lot of things. Look at how Sony handled the builds of Motorstorm, they were always outdated by a good margin compared to what the current product was the time with the exception of the initial E3 playable build, and then look how that game shaped up in the last 6 months.

 

[Deleted User]

The MotorStorm ordeal had nothing to do with this. MotorStorm looked like last-gen crap, every time we saw it.. it had nothing to do with the framerate or the game bordering on unplayable at times. It's visuals just failed to impress. Different discussion completely.

Lair just has chunky framerates and looks wayyy too good for the PS3 to handle, in contrast to MotorStorm hardly looking next gen. Unlike with MotorStorm, it's not going to look any better.. it's going to look worse because of the framerates. They're not going to be able to make it look even better and somehow hold better framerates as well. Especially this late in development.

They don't have 6 months to make it playable or tone down the graphics and effects. They have a grand total of 2 months, one of which will be spent with the product going gold and manufacturing and shipping them. So, in retrospect, a month.

 

[Zenien]

Actually the first build of Motorstorm had framrate issues as well as slowdown when too many vehicles were onscreen.

This build is slick and polished, and even more final builds now fix the remaining issues such as slowdown and loading time.

http://games.kikizo.com/news/200611/101_p1.asp

And every build of Motorstorm after the first one looked pretty darn good.

Actually Motorstorm had a lot to do with this situation, potentially, since Sony was constantly using outdated builds of the game in public play testings. If anything that build of lair that was played could be the same one that appeared at the show that was about a month or 2 after Lairs original hands on unveiling, given how Sony seems to handle demoes these day (IE: Not very well).

 

[Deleted User]

Actually the first build of Motorstorm had framrate issues as well as slowdown when too many vehicles were onscreen.



http://games.kikizo.com/news/200611/101_p1.asp

And every build of Motorstorm after the first one looked pretty darn good.

Actually Motorstorm had a lot to do with this situation, potentially, since Sony was constantly using outdated builds of the game in public play testings. If anything that build of lair that was played could be the same one that appeared at the show that was about a month or 2 after Lairs original hands on unveiling, given how Sony seems to handle demoes these day (IE: Not very well).

That's expected because that was the first build. Almost every 'first build' of a game has some sort of problem. We're talking about a game that is two months from release here, not a game that had many many months left in development.

And seeing as how they said it was a "refined build" that usually means a close-to-final build. If not the final build itself. And if it's looking that chunky, turning up the graphics isn't going to help. The best they're going to be able to do is tone down the graphics to a level that fits the machine better. Unlike MotorStorm, any slowdowns have (and he said NEARLY unplayable, not just "bad framerate") resulted because of the intense graphics, I'm willing to bet my bottom dollar on that.

Usually, with a few months left in development companies don't magically make framerates jump over 40 FPS when they're borderline-horrible. As far as I can tell, I see no reason why they would release a build from months ago a couple months before release. I don't really see a reason why they'd have to scrounge for older models, since the game is almost done.

 

[Fading]

I highly doubt it's a finished build. I think everyone's overreacting lol. First no next gen console will ship a game getting 15fps or so constantly. Second the PS3 GPU and CPU aren't weak so not sure everyone's saying it's a broken Sony promise or something, tech geeks have been in and out of it and say it's powerful. Third, most games go thru a period of tweaks to get framerate up, or fix glitches. They have the time, and will most likely have the fps up there by the time it's shipped, last thing they want is to have a poor showing so close to when they launched.

 

[Deleted User]

I highly doubt it's a finished build. I think everyone's overreacting lol. First no next gen console will ship a game getting 15fps or so constantly. Second the PS3 GPU and CPU aren't weak so not sure everyone's saying it's a broken Sony promise or something, tech geeks have been in and out of it and say it's powerful. Third, most games go thru a period of tweaks to get framerate up, or fix glitches. They have the time, and will most likely have the fps up there by the time it's shipped, last thing they want is to have a poor showing so close to when they launched.

It isn't weak, but then again it doesn't exactly have the oomph of new GPUs either. And Lair is an extremely good-looking game, I wouldn't be surprised if they had to tone some things down to keep a good framerate. And yes, framerate and glitch tweaks are common at the end of development, but most of everything is done by the last two months. There's not going to be a monumental shift in the game's build between now and then.

It's probably not a finished build, but it's pretty damn-near finished. What you seem to not understand is that the first few weeks before going gold, there is no super-crunch. The crunch comes about 4-5 months before the game is released. Right now is supposed to be the "icing-on-the-cake" period where they just do small touch-ups. There's no reason why they could not get a newer build out, since the team isn't going to be swamped with work unless they are behind.

 

[Zenien]

And yet even with Motorstorm, the final near release demoes were both outdated compared to the japanese release which was under 2 months away which itself is outdated compared to the NA release. THeir Kioks demo was outdated compared to the PSN demo which was not a demo of the version seen for the JP release.

That's expected because that was the first build. Almost every 'first build' of a game has some sort of problem. We're talking about a game that is two months from release here, not a game that had many many months left in development.

And seeing as how they said it was a "refined build" that usually means a close-to-final build. If not the final build itself. And if it's looking that chunky, turning up the graphics isn't going to help. The best they're going to be able to do is tone down the graphics to a level that fits the machine better. Unlike MotorStorm, any slowdowns have (and he said NEARLY unplayable, not just "bad framerate") resulted because of the intense graphics, I'm willing to bet my bottom dollar on that.

Usually, with a few months left in development companies don't magically make framerates jump over 40 FPS when they're borderline-horrible. As far as I can tell, I see no reason why they would release a build from months ago a couple months before release. I don't really see a reason why they'd have to scrounge for older models, since the game is almost done.

Well there's not much that can be done if you're intend on ignoring the paralels between it and Motorstorm. Chances are this was just a 'refined' version of the demo used prior. Sony has shown they ship outdated builds, heck they called a 4 month outdated build of Motorstorm a refined build when it was just an updated version of the one shown at TGS.

No one is saying it's going to have a silky smooth 60fps, but you're blowing this out of proportion. We don't know all the facts or how up to date that 'refined build' was considering it had exactly the same areas as the original demo and exactly the same tutorial.

 

[Deleted User]

And yet even with Motorstorm, the final near release demoes were both outdated compared to the japanese release which was under 2 months away which itself is outdated compared to the NA release. THeir Kioks demo was outdated compared to the PSN demo which was not a demo of the version seen for the JP release.

What? I have yet to see a version of MotorStorm that makes any other look completely outdated. Were they even confirmed to be outdated, or are you just making this up or something? Because I have yet to see a released demo version of MotorStorm that looks vastly different from one another in the last 4 months of development.

Well there's not much that can be done if you're intend on ignoring the paralels between it and Motorstorm. Chances are this was just a 'refined' version of the demo used prior. Sony has shown they ship outdated builds, heck they called a 4 month outdated build of Motorstorm a refined build when it was just an updated version of the one shown at TGS.

The problem is, there are no parallels when discussing the ****ing problem. The horrible framerate problem, which has to do with the fact that the graphics are too intense. In no way is MotorStorm similar to Lair in that aspect, because MotorStorm is not a graphically intense game, and only had framerate problems at the beginning of development. Lair is a graphically intense game, which is causing the chunky FPS, not the fact that this is a very old build.

An updated version of a build shown at TGS would be a new build.

Seeing as the fact that it is updated which means the build has been worked on, which means it is a new build. Thus, calling it outdated is not true because unless it was the exact same build as before, it was a newer build because they had actually tweaked the graphical contents and optimization.

And I have yet to see any Lair demo prior that had framerate plunges like this. If this was a prior build that was just barely tweaked, there would not be problems with the framerate that we are seeing now. Unless somehow they decided to tweak an older build to make the game look like complete ****?

 

[Fading]

I do have to admit tho, that if this is a game that pushes the PS3 GPU which is said by Nvidia to be their most powerful Graphics card (well when they released the PS3, graphics cards upgrade fast lol), then this game has more attention than it did before. Honestly hadn't even heard about the game yet, but that

"Now, the PlayStation 3 is being asked to render literally hundreds of armored knights, in addition to fire effects, as well as detailed architecture in a truly massive environment (the expanse is breathtaking), so some drops in frame rate are unexpected. But when those horned tank beasts were dropped by enemy dragons"

Part had me a bit interested lol. Sounds more massive, 100's of detailed knights like in that pic? WIth fire, beautiful architecture and so on, with dragons dropping other beasts on the field, can't wait to see it in motion (after they tweak it some more, hopefully).

 

[Avalanche]

I'm just shocked that people here regard Lair as a good looking game. I've always thought it, honestly, to look a bit crappy. I'd say there's very little special about it, if anything at all.

 

[Zenien]

What? I have yet to see a version of MotorStorm that makes any other look completely outdated. Were they even confirmed to be outdated, or are you just making this up or something?

I'm not, it's fact.

Because I have yet to see a released demo version of MotorStorm that looks vastly different from one another in the last 4 months of development.

Go play the kiosk version and then find vids of the PSN version, you can even see different textures.

The problem is, there are no parallels when discussing the ****ing problem. The horrible framerate problem, which has to do with the fact that the graphics are too intense.

More then likely there are parallels.

In no way is MotorStorm similar to Lair in that aspect

You're right, but given how Sony has handled its demoes, chances are they could be similar in the aspects I've already talked about.

Because MotorStorm is not a graphically intense game, and only had framerate problems at the beginning of development. Lair is a graphically intense game, which is causing the chunky FPS, not the fact that this is a very old build.

It can easilly be both and MS is graphically intense...

Seeing as the fact that it is updated which means the build has been worked on, which means it is a new build. Thus, calling it outdated is not true because unless it was the exact same build as before, it was a newer build because they had actually tweaked the graphical contents and optimization.

You're confusing new/updated/refined with up-to-date, they're not the same thing.

And I have yet to see any Lair demo prior that had framerate plunges like this. If this was a prior build that was just barely tweaked, there would not be problems with the framerate that we are seeing now. Unless somehow they decided to tweak an older build to make the game look like complete ****?

People said Lair was choopy when it was first unvieled, they've also said that in more ways then FPS that is seemed very early at E3 and they wouldn't be suprised if it would be delayed since the core mechanics were very rough. I'm still not convinced that Lair will be a good GAME, but I'm not yet calling foul on one of the most talented developers in the industry (from a technical standpoint)

 

[Ken Kutagari]

GR :heart: Zenien

 

[Deleted User]

More then likely there are parallels.

As far as we can see, there are not.

You're right, but given how Sony has handled its demoes, chances are they could be similar in the aspects I've already talked about.

Given the fact that Factor 5 has to physically give Sony the demo software, it depends more on the developers and less on what Sony does or doesn't do. If the developer is lazy, they are going to give an out-of-date demo to Sony to act as a representation of the game in said show.

It can easilly be both and MS is graphically intense...

Except that Lair isn't in early development. And actually, MS isn't graphically intense. It's graphics are nowhere near the highest quality graphics we've seen so far out of either systems. Maybe in the HUD-less replays, but in-game is far less impressive.

You're confusing new/updated/refined with up-to-date, they're not the same thing.

You'd think that if that had updated and refined the game to be similar to what they are working on now, it would be somewhat up-to-date.

People said Lair was choopy when it was first unvieled, they've also said that in more ways then FPS that is seemed very early at E3 and they wouldn't be suprised if it would be delayed since the core mechanics were very rough. I'm still not convinced that Lair will be a good GAME, but I'm not yet calling foul on one of the most talented developers in the industry (from a technical standpoint)

Yeah, Lair might have been a bit choppy at first being unveiled.. but then again, what'd I say about first builds? Everything after that didn't look near as underwhelming and no one had said it looked near unplayable before. Personally, I don't understand why you think Factor 5 is one of the most talented developers in the industry, as that has yet to be seen, but okay.

P.S. I love Contra, but they definitely haven't created many AAA titles, if any.

 

[Zenien]

Look at their Gamecube games.

 

[Deleted User]

Look at their Gamecube games.

Rogue Squadron? Never been a fan.

 

[Zenien]

GR :heart: Zenien

Who are you, I will probably join that site

Spoiler

maybe!